No Love from ST Fanboys
 

So just happen to come across this thread on a different board:

Focus ST vs WRX vs GTI vs Mazdaspeed 3

I guess they are writing off the MS3 in a comparo before the car even comes out! I think they should be thanking the MS3 because it has helped push the envelope of hot hatches in recent years so a Focus ST can come out.

For those that don't want to register to see is dumb comparison sheet

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12443916/Fo...preadsheet.jpg

only 2 of these cars should even be directly compared if that's what they're going for, and none of them have even driven theirs. they talk about loving the torque but haven't realized the lack of grip yet. They'll also start to blow their motors up when they don't upgrade their fuel pumps, and with no tuning solution yet their cars won't run worth a damn with more than an intake.

But lets not tell them that, they'll figure it out. In the mean time I can walk outside now and drive my car, I can tune it from my computer, and I can order enough parts to hit 500hp and the tires to put the power down. I'm sure the ST is a nice car, but I haven't seen any real tests or comparos yet and, as per their argument, the numbers aren't everything

and LOL at Limited Slip Diff: Unnecessary

haha our cars are just as much of a ford as an st, i find ford motor companny all over my car lol

Wait, wait, wait.....So they compare the ST as fwd that produces more tq and hp throughout the powerband, which, sure fuck it I dont care. Weird though cause peak hp/tq is higher in the ms3 which was stated in the first and second rows.

What bugs me is that they claim higher tq and hp but then when the question of "torque steer" is asked they put, "compensated".......wtf. Then for the ms3, they put "yes".........da fucks. Faggots, they have a fwd car claiming more hp/tq during their powerband and saying torque steer is compensated while the ms3 has torque steer.

Also weird how they have the 60-100, but they didnt list any of the cars numbers. :thinking: Faggots

Lol, the rpms where the ms3 makes peak hp/trq are absent.

They won't be able to ever write the MS3 off.

Let them be excited for awhile. The fail will come.....and then they'll get their stuff together eventually.

Then we'll be able to play together.

I understand that there are different ways to compensate for torque steer. Anyone know how the ST does it? (One way, for instance, is to limit torque in 1st and 2nd gears, like the MS3 does.)

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This is what I was thinking. If I encounter an ST later this year I'll wipe the floor with it. At some point they'll catch up (probably when they have access ports and new injectors [the limiting factor for us now anyway]) and then the real battle will begin.

Initial reports say the ST will utilize much higher fuel pressure. It could be that fueling won't be the issue it is for the Mazda world. Also you have to remember the engine technology in this car has been learned using your mazda as a test bed. As long as Ford hasn't completely screwed this up, their engine setup should be superior to the 2.3 DISI.

I also fully expect the ST to hit the ground running with after market support. A lot of companies are just waiting to get their hands on one.

To the previous question of how the control torque steer... they use a torque vectoring system. Basically applies brake to the axle that is slipping and cuts engine power. IMO sort of lame, but as long as it can be neutered, you're just a Torsen or Qualife diff away from that not mattering. Plus who knows... maybe it doesnt suck as bad is it seems it will.

maybe you can disconnect the swas on that mofo...haha

ill be watching these cars closely...i might end up in one

Nothing worse than people comparing cars on paper.

Limited slip Watson? Unnecessary!

Haha, I love that someone from COBB is saying this! :neener:

No worries. COBB will be happy to help them minimize the fail. We, like many, are just waiting for ours to arrive.

The previous gen focus st has been around in the european market for years. There's a huge following here in SA for the 5cyl model, with guys making big power and torque.

I think there will definitely be good support for the new model, and I'm sure the dreamscience and revo software that is available for the current model will quickly be rolled out for the new one.

It's still ugly as fuck though.

Yeah the reasons above are why I got the MS3 instead of the Focus ST (Engine has been around longer so you get the benefit of other pioneers, price, the fact I didn't have to wait another year to get it). It will be interesting when it comes out to see an official comparison done by Motor Trend or someone.

Just make sure you cripple them a bit on the tunes...you know, for their arrogance now. ;)

Been reading the thread, pretty biased towards something thats not even out yet!! I lol'd at them saying that the torque steer control won't be changed with a tune.

It looks like pulling the power numbers for the ms3 off a dyno test by insideline and is using projected crank dyno plot for the ST to compare. Mazda says 263 hp @ 5500 rpm, but he only gives it 243 as the dyno test says... And the st is given its peak crank numbers in those spots 252 hp and 270 lbft. Because everyone knows crank hp compares so well to wheel hp...

Dyno Testing the 2010 Mazdaspeed 3 and 2010 Volkswagen GTI
http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtest...mb-717x477.jpg

hmmmm troll time?

I admit the ST should be a great car but...there arguments are silly.

Spreadsheet, more like a lolsheet

I think the car will have a lot of potential and with its European following will gain a lot more support a lot faster than the speeds. That being said, those fags are a bunch of corolla driving internet mega douches that don't have a clue what they're talking about.

Once the car comes out, those queers will be displaced by actual knowledgeable people on the forums. Happens on every forum for a new model.

Wow those guys are rediculous. They are talking like the ST is the Champion of the Hot Hatch but they havent even driven them yet....And maybe im missing something but isnt the Focus RS the Champion hatch Ford has to offer? Yes there may be some ford parts on the MS3 but Ford does not own the majority of Mazda. Also we are coming to an end of the gen2 within a year or 2 so everything could change with the next gen which is good for us but bad for them

"some parts" is a bit of an understatement.... The entire Mazda engine package was the testing grounds for Ford's EcoBoost line of Engines. So while Mazda currently has more aftermarket experience, this Ford platform has had the same time to learn at an OEM level.

Most of Mazda and Ford's cars were built on the same platform (Mazda 6/Fusion) and now that they have split, Ford has an amazing looking Fusion coming out and the EU Focus doesn't suck either. Remember, Ford bought into Mazda... Not the other way around. Mazda are the ones who are going to have a big challenge in front of them. As far as your Gen 3 MS3... With all this skyactiv talk... There has been more than one rumor circulating about the existence of the entire Mazdaspeed platform. Mazda is starting to sound like they are more interested in competing with Toyota for the mpg race then staying competitive in the hot hatch world. Hope I'm wrong about this... But we'll just have to see.

I'd like to be proven wrong but I don't see an Gen3 coming out anytime soon from Mazda. They do have a racing pedigree but times are tough for them.

I heard a rumor a while back that they're dropping the rx-8 very soon and after a year or 2 off coming out with a 4th gen rx-7 that would be more like the 3rd gen...no back seat, no auto, higher hp/tq output....and the possibility of a turbo...i know it's not the hot hatch econo rocket category but that may be where they're going to put their performance minds if they decide to not have a gen 3 ms3....just my 2 cents....

i found it funny how on the spreadsheet under the limited slip diff. it says the wrx and ms3 have it but on the st is says, not neccesary! WTF lol have fun w/o a LSD tranny st fanboys. :owned:

i say take it to Forum wars their forums vs us, they brought it upon themselves with their bold statements i say < PUT UP OR SHUT UP >

Really? No one has trolled them yet? I guess I know what I'll be doing at work tomorrow morning. They love the ST and its so much better than any car on that list yet none of them has even driven one. Smart fuckers over there.

The rotary is indeed dead. No more Rotary anything in the near future. Mazda has denied reports of a possible "RX9" which would look closer to the RX7 but would be turboed and all that jazz. I believe the next Speed related car they'd make would be a Mazdaspeed2

8.5" stock wheels ftw though.

That thread delivers on the bench racing fail. Hardcore. I also like how EVERY time MSF gets involved or mentioned people bitch about donations and flaming... there are other mazdaspeed forums, and forum communities have nothing to do with stock car performance.

Noobs need to wait for the car to exist first. Then get some #s and bench race...

YO DAWG! I heard you like to bench race, so i got you some hypothetical numbers so you can pit them hypothetically against other numbers.

LULZ...time to troll yet?!

LSD is needed on these cars. Electronic band aids are annoying as fuck. In saying that, the ST is going to be a great car, which will only make the future Speed3s better. It will be interesting to see what problems come up in the first few years, espicially with their dual clutch auto boxes

A focus? Really??

May as well be talking about civics, accords, integras and other similar POS cars. Its a focus people, why get into a pissing match?!?!

Shortest midget contest if you ask me..

The ST does not come with the DCT/Powershift Transmission.... only a 6 speed manual :smashfreakB:

crap you're right... my bad

Eventualy the ST will rival, Unless they are found to have a crazy weak block or some other hardware short comings. As mentioned they have a lot of blowed up motors and headaches before they get there though, lol. We have at least a couple years of destroying the general st public before they get shit figured out.

However there have been plenty of complaints about that transmission in the lower trim models. Ford dodged a huge bullet by not including this transmission in this car.

Their engine is built off a Durtec platform just like the speed's engine. What everyone seems to be missing is zoom zoom boom has been their learning grounds. They won't have to suffer through nearly as much as this platform has because they have the benefit of learning from our mistakes.

That and no one really knew what the hell a mazdaspeed was... so aftermarket support was tight. Now that Mazda (along with some others) have set a fire in the 'hot hatch' community. The ST will reap the benefits of that as well. I fully expect them to hit the ground running with full after market support.

So many discrepancies. Comparing wheel hp on ms3 to crank on the st...really? Oh the st has a broader power curve...hmm tq is a great indicator of area under the curve. We have more tq and more area under the curve.

Hahahahahahaha limited slip not necessary. Have fun when the brakes are kicking in ruining the fun. Gonna be revenge of the swas x 10 on their cars.

They mention torque steer soo much, i barely noticed that shit when stock. Bt...yeah thats a different story.

Performance numbers are off...broad generalizations. Epitome of shitty bench racing.

The focus st will be a great car. But in factory trim i think that the ms3 will not be getting kicked off its pedestal yet. Modded? We'll see what challanges they face, and limitations

Can someone PLEASE link them to this thread.
I really feel like shitting on someone today with minimal effort on my part.
This would be pretty easy.

The mod over there already linked to this thread. I think it's on page 2 or something

Me thinks the Mazdaspeed3 will continue into a Gen3 one day. Sales numbers for the Speed3 are impressive at something like 1000/month in North America (don't quote me...i need to look back on the document) but when we were deciding how much effort that we at COBB are prepared to keep putting into this platform the answer, in short, was a simple "Yes!"

It will be a crying shame if Mazda discontinues the MS3... but they aren't instilling a lot of confidence in me right now. Like Lex said, I hope to eat crow on this one.

I really don't know why people that don't have a ms3 complain so much about the torque steer on it. Just grab the steering wheel correctly an you'l be fine. At first i was a bit carefull with it but eventually got used to it. For me its kind of fun and keeps me concentrated while driving.

For real, I went from wrx to my ms3. At first the torque steer bothered me, but then I realized I was being a vag and maned up. Grab the steering wheel like a big boy and hold on for one hell of a ride.

Tapatalked

My T-Rex arms can't handle torque steer. I'm thinking of just braking every time I accelerate to limit it.

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So the focus st is basically a more expensive ms3 with less power, why all the hype?

Id say the ms3 is safe for a few reasons. When i bought mine back in late 2010 there was only one on the lot because they werent that popular, there were only 5 in all of HOUSTON! my buddies brother bought one in... late 2011? i want to say and there was only one on the lot because they couldnt keep them in stock, he basically had to scramble over and pay sticker price. If mazda dealerships cant even keep them in stock, people want these cars.

My second point: if you dont drive like a tool bag, with one hand on the shifter and one dirrectly at 12:00 on the steering wheel you wont even notice torque steer. Hold the wheel with your left hand at 9:00 with the seat in a reliteivly (but still comfortable) verticle position and floor it all day long with no drama because your body is set up in a much better position to control the wheel. None of this laying in the back seat while driving crap.

Lastly, i love ford, and had this car been out when i was in the market that may have been what i ended up in. However im sure ford took a note of the Cobalt SS turbos knocking out corvettes, no one can deny those little shits are fast. Im sure the last thing ford wants is its "economy hatchback" acing its mustangs, so the love and support may be limited from Ford. Yes, i have no doubt that Ford has learned many things from our platform, but mazda has no other car to worry about stepping on, this car IS mazdas flagship... its just going to be interesting to see where everything ends up, especially if those come equipped with a twin scroll turbo, i cant remember the specs off the top of my head.

still waiting to be able to post there. signed up this morning and activated everything, just wont let me post yet.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Ford has always been worried about stepping on the Mustang's toes. I guess I can understand it but I almost want them to think of this as a lateral fight (vs other manufacturer's models in the same class) instead of a vertical one.

There is a HUGE debate on cobaltss.net where I came from. I'm not impressed by it's looks at all. Power seems less than what a stock Speed lays down if the crank numbers are 250's. As for the electronic LSD, VW guys I know aren't liking it at all

Good point on the Mustang... I know that Ford purposefully detuned the V8 SHO because it was putting better numbers out than the mustang at the time. We also all know that the LS1 F-body's were underrated so LS1 corvette owners didn't get butt hurt.

However, I think Ford needs to put dividers in their markets. People who love mustangs aren't going to buy a Focus ST. The ST will not be faster out of the box (not by a long shot) and that was the issue with my previous two examples. If you're in the modding world, you already understand any car can be made to out perform another with enough moeny.

So... while the ST may carry the ability to be modded to a point that it can beat the mustang, these cars comfortably exist in different realms.

The lack of LSD was pretty lame on Ford's part... but after market LSD's will be available and hopefully the tuning logic to neutered the torque vectoring system.

Thats a good point, i suppose ford has to assume people may Mod but theres no sense in making the ST useless because of it... ie: gen 1 genesis turbo...

I don't think the ST is useless though. For its price range, it's very comfortably sitting where it needs to based off it's competition.

Right, i meant it obviously has potential to beat a stock or lightly modded mustang but thats no reason to put a leash on it like hyundai did to keep the turbo genesis off the V6s heels.

Base pricing, with no extra options added is $24495, with every option and premium paint cost it runs up to $31995 (or was it $30995). Either way, fully loaded is a bit steep. I have pics of the build sheets on my laptop at home

I'd love to find the sources of all the info posted in that "datasheet", because I've seen a few things that are blatantly wrong.

18/25 gas mileage in the MS3...I think they were checking the RX8 specs accidentally. Factory sticker said something like 22/30 on mine.

My 2010 was rated 18/25

I sit back, hold my right hand on the shifter and my left hand at 12 o'clock even when I drive it hard and have never felt anything like what people are talking about "torque steer"...I'm completely stock...I'm curious what all the fuss is about....

Gotcha.... that was a poor choice on Hyundai's part. I don't think Ford made the same mistake. With the base Mustang V6 making 300+ hp, they are very comfortable in where they are.

I have the feeling the Blue Oval has tainted you with its scrotum. I feel a change in the force....as if your going to buy a ST but stay on the forum and dismiss any posibilities of a new Speed3 so that we may all fall into depression and give in the number 2 hatch that Ford has to offer...I would rather buy an RS and lol at the ST guys.

While I do own a 2012 Focus... it's not an ST.

I hope I am 100% off on my speculations of Mazda's future intentions. I really enjoy the Mazdaspeed community (especially you jackasses) and wouldn't have left it if I had the choice. However, with the information Mazda has recently made available, I don't have high hopes for their future Speed related programs.

If the RS makes its way to American soil, it would undoubtedly out perform the ST... however the ST and the RS are like the WRX and the STi. Both have their place in the market. For some the RS will be the only way to go... however for others, the ST will fit the need perfectly.

I know the focus rs has the revoknuckle and ediff which quell torquesteer I don't know if they are using that kind of stuff in the st.

I wish they brought the focus rs here... I would've picked up one of those in a heartbeat. The new ST isn't even close that that.

Any word of mazda discontinuing the speed variant is blasphemy and should be treated as such with automatic ban. These things are one of the few that actually go zoom zoom in their portfolio

Focus ST are no match for our cars...

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...aro-ls1-91837/

Enough said.

Focus ST Performance Academy
I signed up for the 11 am in LA, anybody else down? haha

The fuck someone post this on there forum!

Other than your hopes and prayers what evidence leads you to this conclusion?

Hammer the gas mid corner and try to keep your line with your current preferred driving position tuff guy.

St will not have revoknuckle.

They have to hold something back for the US debut of the Focus RS.

You will understand soon young padawan...haha

All that mazda has left to go zoom zoom in right now is the aging miata and speed3

RS should be coming to the U.S. 2-3 years after the ST's debut based on things Ford has said. It's the one that will have revoknuckle. ST has "torque vectoring" bs which means it hits the brakes on the side that's misbehaving. Same way it fights torque steer.

I really wanted one of these cars last year when I was looking around for a new car. They were supposed to be out Q1 2012 at that time. When they got pushed back to the end of 2012 I couldn't wait that long, which is how I ended up on the MS3. I'm actually happy how things worked out now, I love my Speed. I will say I still like the way the ST looks and the interior is really nice with all the goodies. The specs are not bad on this car either. They are respectable, and I'd say actually pretty good for a FWD hatch. But I think they are still going to be a half-step behind us stock for stock. But this just makes the VW and Volvo hot-hatches irrelevant. WRX still has its place because of AWD, but for those that don't need that there is another great option for those that love a hot hatch.

That only plays further into my fear.... they have been phasing out of the go fast market for years. Now with the separation for Ford, and the current release of there new economy line of engines. Things aren't looking very good.

While I don't think their Speed Market has done poorly for them. It's still only a fraction of their overall sales. With the current trend in the market, I could very easily Mazda kicking the enthusiast market and trying to tackle Toyota for their economy market.

You act like I haven't already tried that...at one point I was wondering if I had something wrong with my ms3 but after the performance I had at my auto cross I doubt that...

there is no reason to boot the performance car, just to evolve it to continue to make it relevant. with hot hatches making 200hp+ and getting over 30mpg highway observed i'd say they are on the right track. it'd be a shame if mazda were to drop it now when the competition just seems to get hotter with the ST coming into the picture

I completely agree... it would be a shame. Unfortunately that doesn't mean they won't do it. Like I said before, I hope I'm dead wrong.... but Mazda isn't instilling me with confidence.

auto makers always go through trends with vehicles...they may stop making a performance line for a few years, but it will come back in time.

I signed up, for 12 though, 11 wasn't an option when I got on there

I think going after yota's share would be suicide for mazda, Toyota has a rep for boring but dependable cars. Mazda has a much more driver oriented rep. Not that mazda has bad quality or sells only sports cars, not extremely one sided. It's the old performance/quality/affordable---- pick 2 saying.

If mazda tries to switch to the boring side completely, they loose all the people who want a drivers car-- and it will take a long time to become peoples first choice in the practical/dependable game over Toyota.

I may be completely off. Just my 2 cents. I really hope Mazda stays true to their roots in the future.

"There seems to be a general misunderstanding over there about the torque vectoring control and electronic compensation for torque steer. They are not the same, brakes will not be applied to reduce torque steer, and the engine will not be limited in the first 2 gears, as the MS3 does.
I'm really looking forward to being able to compare more than numbers here, and have more than estimates. Hopefully, the afpcus ST is out this August."

Page 12 over there.


Hahhaa they keep speaking of torque vectoring. It has no lsd, sounds like no power compensation in lower gears.....how are you going to prevent torque steer for the limp wristed. Gonna sweet talk it? Whisper sweet nothings in the car's ears?

Sorry brakes are going to be used. Only plausible action with open diff. Thats what torque vectoring is. Have these retards not read their own reviews?

5 New Hatchbacks We Want to Drive - Ford Focus ST - Popular Mechanics


these guys say the ford uses the brakes

Electronic power assist steering tightens up and holds the wheel for you so you don't hurt your puny chicken wrists. I want a sport fwd's solution to torque steer to be a light
on the dash that lights up "Don't be beetch." And that's it.

tapatatapa... DROID 2 Global... etc etc

By braking the unloaded tire/wheel on the drive wheels it can force the load to go to the loaded tire. This in essence is what some people call the poor mans lsd. I can't say it's effectiveness in all conditions vs a physical lsd but under conditions where one drive wheel becomes unloaded and looses grip, it definitely can help. I'm sure they also do something similar to our dsc where they brake the inside wheel to help the car "rotate". I just signed up for the focus st event, look forward to it!

I believe that ford claims their electronic power steering system will stop the torque steer. Not the torque vectoring, which is for wheelspin. I'm not sure how that will work, seems like it wouldn't be strong enough to stop it with the torque the engine will produce.

I guess time will tell though.

Here is a quote from a car and driver review,

—In between is electric power assist, which is the heart of the car&rsquo;s torque-steer-compensation system. When the system senses an imbalance of torque to the front wheels, it reduces the steering assist in the direction the steering wheel would normally be yanked. The result, we&rsquo;re told, is similar to that of theRevo Knuckle—strut from the—previous Focus RS—(a 300-hp Focus also never seen stateside) but without the extra cost and weight of &thinsp;the advanced strut design.

Also, the torque vectoring system CANNOT be turned off.

Tapatalked

The biggest fail argument in the thread regarding their torque vectoring vs. LSD:

Yeah....entering the corner 0.2 mph quicker is going to totally offset the fact that the brakes are being applied while accelerating through corner exit. One page earlier this jackass claimed his comparison's bias didn't make him a fan boy. That seems like total bullshit the marketing department came up with. "Torque vectoring: Now with longer-life brake components!"

Serious question here... with our LSD the wheels will try to stay more-or-less equally powered assuming an equal surface... say the dragstrip. With their electronic substitute, when the brakes slow the powered wheel, wouldn't the sudden shock load greatly increase the probability of the other wheel breaking traction?

I know the system will then respond to that and have millisecond response, but still seems like a clusterfuck to me.

Mechanical >>>>> Electrical, in every performance aspect.

Usually all these delays are what makes electrical systems such a nuissance...since there are slight delays they always err on the safe side.

Hence why i disconnected the steering wheel angle sensor as well as others...it's intrusive and hard to predict. Mechanical is not hard to predict and the driver learns and compensates.

Curious what our members will have to say after driving the ST's... Hopefully I can give a FYFN call out.

Depending on when they hit the dealerships, I might be working at a ford store again so I will definitely report back.

Tapatalk ed

AT high speeds the ELSD will not be as harsh but at low speeds it will be cumbersome. The CSRT-4 has an ELSD and that car sucked ... well for several reasons ... going around corners. It's already bad enough this thing is FWD, people looking for true performance will drop in a mechanical LSD.

I can't wait to run into one on the street and shatter their confidence. Anyone over at the Focus forum live near Bowling Green Ky then look for a Cosmic Blue gen 1 around town. Tuned by the man above.

I decide how the car corners... not some fucking mad scientist in the computer/braking system.

The only thing I would need a computer for is to compensate for my impatience and little man syndrome so I could finally get some decent mpg's.

FYSTN

Ecoboost 2.0 comes factory with forged rod and crank = Win. Wife has one in the 2012 escape and its a freakin great motor in that heavy bastard ..

MS3 > Rod smasher

FYDISIN

i believes our rods are forged. just not very well, i guess..

Lol this again. Wait until they start blowing in performance applications as well.

Our crank is forged so are our rods (powder forged).

The Ecoboost is just an advancement of the DISI. Don't expect it to hold 400hp without a shortened lifespan.

True dat ..