pressure differential on oem tmic

[speedfreak44]

So for us to get an exact pressure drop number we would need to do the test in a vacuum chamber? This would rule out any drop in temps correct? Not that I could do that

[Yatta]

Originally Posted by speedfreak44 So for us to get an exact pressure drop number we would need to do the test in a vacuum chamber? This would rule out any drop in temps correct? Not that I could do that

a comparative irrespective of temperature will still give you some good data, if you really want to gauge what the IC restriction is, measuring pressure in, temperature in and pressure out, temperature out will allow you to figure out how much pressure drop is due to decrease in charge air temp and how much is due to internal restrictions.

[Easter Bunny]

PV=nRT

[speedfreak44]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny PV=nRT

While we are doing formulas....

engineering > me
me = healthcare field

[mxlplx71]

someone big turbo with an aftermarket tmic just run two logs one stock one aftermarket
like to see what those logs would look like.

[Voltwings]

Its been years, so this is somewhat useless, but i had my GT3071 go through the stock TMIC and my ETS.

14 psi spring would only hit ~10 psi on stock intercooler, would run ~14-15 on the ETS. No boost leaks.

[xfeejayx]

K04, lost 2 psi going from ets 3.5" to stock.
Same boost tune, so I imagine boost error comp increased wgdc to try to make up the difference.

[SarcasticOne]

Originally Posted by Voltwings Its been years, so this is somewhat useless, but i had my GT3071 go through the stock TMIC and my ETS. 14 psi spring would only hit ~10 psi on stock intercooler, would run ~14-15 on the ETS. No boost leaks.

Did you both hit similar MAF voltages?

Originally Posted by xfeejayx K04, lost 2 psi going from ets 3.5" to stock. Same boost tune, so I imagine boost error comp increased wgdc to try to make up the difference.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by SarcasticOne Did you both hit similar MAF voltages?

Again, YEARS ago, i dont have any of that data any more.

[xfeejayx]

Same, been a while. I'd except MAF was higher with the ETS.

Somewhat relevant discovery last night. I've been running the cp-e tmic without a shroud (Mounting hole threads were iffy, and the shroud sits on the welds. Also didn't think it'd make a huge difference)

Long story short, Tuna noticed high BATs, I put the shroud on, BATs went down 30-40F.

Without the shroud, it just never recovered from heat soak. Spraying with water also reversed the heatsoak almost immediately. Good to know for AX. Spray bottle ordered.

[davychronic]

Originally Posted by xfeejayx Same, been a while. I'd except MAF was higher with the ETS. Somewhat relevant discovery last night. I've been running the cp-e tmic without a shroud (Mounting hole threads were iffy, and the shroud sits on the welds. Also didn't think it'd make a huge difference) Long story short, Tuna noticed high BATs, I put the shroud on, BATs went down 30-40F. Without the shroud, it just never recovered from heat soak. Spraying with water also reversed the heatsoak almost immediately. Good to know for AX. Spray bottle ordered.

Installing a washer nozzle in top rear of the scoop works well to combat heat soak

[MD1032]

I would really like to see some data. Would you guys be interested in seeing differences between the stocker and my CP-E TMIC at all if I threw the stocker back on and took it out for a spin on the same night with the same tune? My current tune commands 100% WGDC in the top end, so any differences should be pretty obvious because my K04 is going balls to the wall up there. Thank god for methanol. Shouldn’t need to really change anything else in the tune honestly based on my limited experience.

Originally Posted by davychronic Installing a washer nozzle in top rear of the scoop works well to combat heat soak

That's a good idea in theory, but the SCCA at least does not allow active cooling systems. I was told I would not be allowed to autocross with such a system (been there, done that) in place.

[davychronic]

Originally Posted by MD1032 I would really like to see some data. Would you guys be interested in seeing differences between the stocker and my CP-E TMIC at all if I threw the stocker back on and took it out for a spin on the same night with the same tune? My current tune commands 100% WGDC in the top end, so any differences should be pretty obvious because my K04 is going balls to the wall up there. Thank god for methanol. Shouldn’t need to really change anything else in the tune honestly based on my limited experience. That's a good idea in theory, but the SCCA at least does not allow active cooling systems. I was told I would not be allowed to autocross with such a system (been there, done that) in place.

In an ms6 i got 10g/s more across all rpms and 20 degree cooler bat's with a minimal increase in boost pressure on the same map, same road, about a half hour inbetween the pulls.
(Going from stock to cpe with shroud)

[aromig]

@Awal, do you happen to have any before/after logs for your CS tmic you could contribute? OCD builds benefit everyone

crap, why can I never remember how to tag

[MS3Shadow]

@aromig;

it's like this @Awal;

you forgot the ; after the username

[aromig]

Originally Posted by MS3Shadow @aromig; it's like this @Awal; you forgot the ; after the username

Got it, thanks. Love the avatar btw.

[zenit]

Originally Posted by MD1032 That's a good idea in theory, but the SCCA at least does not allow active cooling systems. I was told I would not be allowed to autocross with such a system (been there, done that) in place.

Right. But you can do water injection anywhere in the air tract intake to exhaust in the street prepared class and do passive cooling in grid.

[speedfreak44]

When I swapped to my OEM tmic my g/s barely changed. 5 max so I think it is a null value.

My cooling on many many logs showed the stock tmic outperforming the ets constantly.

Someone do a quick swap of intercoolers to see some logged outcomes. Do logs same day probably 3 total of each intercooler and do an average comparison.

[MD1032]

Originally Posted by zenit Right. But you can do water injection anywhere in the air tract intake to exhaust in the street prepared class and do passive cooling in grid.

Yeah I was pretty close to getting a squirt bottle until I switched to a methanol mix. I'm telling you, there is nothing, nothing that beats just throwing some alcohol in the tank, assuming your goal is to eliminate knock.

Originally Posted by speedfreak44 My cooling on many many logs showed the stock tmic outperforming the ets constantly.

OK, that's great. Why don't you post up the data for us? I'm really having a hard time believing your experience is so different from everyone else's. I'm inclined to try this on my own car to satisfy my own curiosity about the performance of my stock intercooler versus my CP-E TMIC on my car under my conditions, but not as a supplement to existing threads here on MSF that contain data showing that the aftermarket ones cool better. If you haven't read this thread, it's a good read.

Corksport / ETS / CP-E TMIC before/after logs - got 'em, post 'em

[Easter Bunny]

@dale_gribble; did a pretty good comparo sometime ago.

[sheston]

I started by using the washer pump to spray washer fluid on my stock TMIC. That seems to work ok, but everyone knew something was up when I sat at the light and my windshield wipers were going. Had to fix that by wiring up a switch.

Next I tried a 1000 cfm low profile fan mounted to the top of the TMIC. Can't say that did anything, but if anyone would like it, I've still got it.

I agree with @MD1032; in tank meth will kill any knock. I get better protection with 2 gallons per tank that I did with 4.5 gallons of E85 per tank.

Of course, the only real way to go is spraying Meth. This will not only get rid of knock, but give more hp as well

[speedfreak44]

@MD1032; I couldn't post them because I do not have them labeled to be able to find them in the mix of my other 60 or so logs. I doubt they would respond but my logs were sent to stratified for comparison and even they couldn't give me an answer as to why my tune didn't lose power or gain power swapping between the two. I wish I did label them however but I wasn't expecting to ever have a thread like this going. Maybe by some off chance my ets was screwed up. Either way I will be experimenting with the cpe within the month

I read dales write up it was.very informative

[Awal]

Originally Posted by aromig @Awal, do you happen to have any before/after logs for your CS tmic you could contribute? OCD builds benefit everyone crap, why can I never remember how to tag

I only have after TMIC/SRI/TIP on original turbo during the peak of summer, and I now have before on new K04 @ 17350 kms (warranty) from a few weeks ago. My engine is still stocked out at the moment, and Mazda is about to decide on whether to also replace my cats/inspect my O2 sensors (they are still smoking after ingesting 3.5l of oil), so I'm just waiting to hear back before I continue my mod-a-thon (engine-wise anyways).


Once Mazda says yay or neh on the additional work I will do a bunch more logs in stock form, (because it's already 15* Celsius cooler than a month ago, and 20* than all my logs pre K04 failure), install my CS TMIC and do a bunch more logging, then the 3.5" will go on and more logs will follow, then finallllllly, the CS catless TBE will go on and more logs will ensue. Then I'll be custom tuned by Stratified in person and more logs will come, WMI, 3bar/EBC turn up the boost and many more logs.


So yeah, I will provide all these logs as soon as I can, it's one of the silver linings from the K04 blowing on me, it gives me a chance to see what exactly each bolt on gives me. I didn't get my AP until I had already installed my TMIC, so I had no baselines, and I didn't start data-logging until after the SRI, but this time I have a chance to do it over again.

Another silver lining is that Mazda replaced the 1 10 mm heatshield bolt that stripped on me when I first attempted the TBE install, and they cracked all the turbo/DP/etc bolts/studs replacing the turbo.. I would have thought they would have cracked the primary o2 sensor as well but they must have just unplugged it when they dropped the exhaust. If they replace the cat, or cats they'll have to crack them though.

I was actually going to install the TBE the day after my K04 blew, kinda glad it happened before than after, as stocking out the exhaust would have been a bigger hassle.



TL;DR

Not right now, but as soon as possible I will post them here for you fine folks.

[Awal]

for shits and giggles, you turbo nerds may be able to gleam some info from my Pu with CS TMIC/3.5"SRI/TIP on original K04 vs my car with stock TMIC/airbox on the new K04.

The 1st two logs are with the CS gear on orig K04, very conservative tune, 2nd two are stock with new K04 on Stage 0 (Cobb's approximation of the OEM map). Yes, I know the new logs are crazy rich.


I will provide better back to back logs of stock vs CS TMIC as soon as I can. If there any other values you'd like to see for this comparison please let me know and I'll make sure I log them.

[Mazdazilla6]

Just noticed this in the recent threads section. Cp-e has made some great white papers on intercoolers. Here's the one for their TMIC. It's all true for any aftermarket unit but the math is cool to see as well as seeing the difference graphically.

http://cp-e.com/tech/MZRTMIC.pdf

[speedfreak44]

To me cpe is stating exactly what we have observed in this thread and discussed. The only part I am not sure I agree with is the "power gain" dyno graph. Again once my cpe tmic is here I will be doing my own testing. That and awal should post up his Cs findings.
@Awal; I would go fully bolted and get a good tune down then swap the tmics back to back so they are the weakest link in the setup (excluding the k04).

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by speedfreak44 When I swapped to my OEM tmic my g/s barely changed. 5 max so I think it is a null value. My cooling on many many logs showed the stock tmic outperforming the ets constantly. Someone do a quick swap of intercoolers to see some logged outcomes. Do logs same day probably 3 total of each intercooler and do an average comparison.

How exactly was this test done? Depending on the order of intercoolers your numbers could be skewed, since the BATs are measured in the intake manifold and that will always heat soak, regardless of intercooler.

Unless you are starting with a 100% cold car each time, its a bit null. That makes same day testing a bit tricky, but its a factor that cant really be ignored.

[speedfreak44]

It was same day about 3 hours apart. Ets was done cold car OEM done about 3 hours later.

[Awal]

Originally Posted by speedfreak44 @Awal; I would go fully bolted and get a good tune down then swap the tmics back to back so they are the weakest link in the setup (excluding the k04).

I will do exactly that once I'm fully bolted and tuned (pre WMI). The TMIC swap takes about 10 mins tops so it's not a big deal, and if I can help provide real world data on the TMIC debate I'm all for it.

I chose the Corksport TMIC because it can still be run with the stock shroud, and I like things looking stock AF. But it some of the points made earlier about how it sheds heat soak a bit faster due to less mass makes sense. Also, for this engine, at this point, I'm trying to keep things as easy as possible to stock out just in case warranty issues popped up, and from all I've read and researched (especially if I go WMI) on the K04 and even a LBT (CS/BNRv3) a TMIC is sufficient for under 400whp.

When I get a fully built motor + BigBoyTurbo I'll be stepping up to a FMIC, until then a good TMIC and meth is fine for my needs.

[MD1032]

What is so damn hard about going into your sent mail folder @speedfreak44; and posting those logs here? Way too much speculation and not enough actual data in this thread.

Admittedly, I'm part of the problem. But I won't have time to test until I get back from vacation this extended weekend. In the meantime I have been thinking about how to do this. Here is my proposed test method:

1) Heat soak equipped intercooler until BAT=170°F
2) Begin logging. Drive in a consistent loop at a consistent speed to remove heatsoak. Measure time it takes to remove heatsoak.
3) Perform three 3rd gear WOT pulls, measuring the time it takes to remove heatsoak in between each pull. Stop logging (yes, logs will be very long indeed).
4) Perform in duplicate for each intercooler and bracket in singlet with originally installed intercooler to confirm original results.

[mize13]

You could use the extended Bernoulli's equation to get a K value for the OEM TMIC. The K value would actually represent the system between the MAF sensor and the MAP sensor, but assuming you keep everything the same, a change in the k value would be as a result of swapping the intercooler.

This equation assumes inviscid flow, which is a reasonable assumption.

[voodoo2crue]

Originally Posted by mize13 You could use the extended Bernoulli's equation to get a K value for the OEM TMIC. The K value would actually represent the system between the MAF sensor and the MAP sensor, but assuming you keep everything the same, a change in the k value would be as a result of swapping the intercooler. This equation assumes inviscid flow, which is a reasonable assumption.

I tried to read up on Bernoulli's equation and inviscid flow. Although fluid dynamics seemed intriguing I can't wrap my head around the equations. Anyway, i did think " I'll be damned"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2cIGYpFA68

[mize13]

Bernoulli's is a simplification of the conservation of energy along a fluid streamline, in which energy can only be stored in three forms: pressure, velocity, and potential energy (delta z).

Extended Bernoulli's just tacks on frictional losses, system losses from pipes, bends, entrances, exits, etc., and pumping head.

So if point 1 is say the MAF sensor, and point 2 is the MAP sensor then, neglecting any changes in potential energy, we have:

P_1 (Pressure at MAF ~ close to atmospheric, probably a hair less)
ro_1 (Density at MAF)
P_2 (Measured at MAP)
ro_2 (Density at MAP)
V_1 (velocity at MAF sensor)
V_2 (might have to be approximated in throttle body)
z_1 = z_2 = 0
f = some value, small
L = Length of system

H_pump is the tricky part. Basically need to know pumping head, which we can't really find unless we are measuring the pressure in the compressor outlet.

With all of these values you can get a k value for the entire system.

God, there is a lot of potential error in this method. But be cool to try.

[speedfreak44]

We wont be getting my cpe vs stock comparison. Decided to go fmic. I may be inclined to grab logs of that swap but that is a large difference vs just a top mount swap

[MD1032]

I'll still be doing mine when time allows. Life is busy unfortunately.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[speedfreak44]

I feel you. I work 12 days straight followed by 2 days off then another 12 days straight etc etc

[mize13]

I'll see if I can take my stocker to the university and throw it on the flow bench. The one we have at NC State was given to us by IBM, and they are very nice and well designed. I could develop an impedance curve for the TMIC. Only thing I'm worried about is not being able to get enough air moving through it. I'll have to check how much air it can flow.