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 Old 06-12-2018, 04:10 AM   #1
 
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Default Rich AFR's

hey all, recently been having an issue where the car starts to go richer as RPM increases during WOT pulls. afrs go from around 11.4 to 10, to 9.7 as the RPM increases. i have cleaned the maf, replaced the seal between maf and intake, i have replaced to orings on my bov, checked intercooler piping and clamps, and smoke tested my setup. Smoke test did not show any leaks. Ive got a few logs I can post which all show the issue. any ideas what the issue could be? any help would be great, thanks!


Logs added
Attached Files
File Type: csv datalog42.csv (12.8 KB, 7 views)
File Type: csv datalog43.csv (17.7 KB, 3 views)
File Type: csv datalog45.csv (14.5 KB, 5 views)
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Last edited by gotovato; 06-12-2018 at 05:18 AM.
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 Old 06-12-2018, 05:34 AM   #2
 
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You didn't mention it, but I'm assuming you have made ZERO changes to the vehicle prior to the AFRs getting richer.

Boost leak would be the first to check, which you did.
You say "recently". Do you have an earlier log that shows steady AFRs at WOT to compare it with?
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2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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 Old 06-12-2018, 06:49 AM   #3
 
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
You didn't mention it, but I'm assuming you have made ZERO changes to the vehicle prior to the AFRs getting richer.

Boost leak would be the first to check, which you did.
You say "recently". Do you have an earlier log that shows steady AFRs at WOT to compare it with?
so the issue probably started about 3 weeks ago but being noob, I didn't see it for what it was. I noticed the issue on a very hot day after a few pulls and though it was the ecu dumping fuel to manage heat. I then next noticed it on the track running hot laps, again just thought it was the ecu dumping fuel to deal with heat. I then realized my BATs were not exceeding 43c even on track after multiple laps and yet I was still having this issue.

Yesterday I did my checking of clamps and couplers and whatnot. I smoke tested and had 0 leaks although it was a low pressure smoker. the logs just don't make sense to me as its perfectly fine up until a certain rpm then it just goes dead rich. heres a log taken not long before I started having this issue.

I have made NO changes to the setup recently. I did install new plugs a few weeks ago but even after the plug was it was running without this issue. that's the most recent change ive made to the car.
Attached Files
File Type: csv datalog41.csv (21.4 KB, 3 views)
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 Old 06-12-2018, 09:02 AM   #4
 
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Does it start to leak at a certain RPM or a certain boost?
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Manley Pistons & H-Tuff Rods, King Bearings
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Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, NGK6510, CP-e TMIC
CS Turbo/DP/RP/HPFP/BPV/R-DiffMount
White Widow F-DiffMount, Whiteline RSB
Russian Bushings in Back, Poly FSB Bushings, Magnaflow CBE, ACT sprung 6-puck/Streetlite
JBR Tru-3.5/3-port EBCS/EGR-D
Damond RMM/PMM/Stage 2 OCC/PCV Plate
AWR TMM on stand-by
Other rides:
2002 Tacoma ExtCab 2.4L 5spd 2WD - 355k mile Speed support vehicle.
2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015 and I really need to get rid of it)
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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 Old 06-12-2018, 09:13 AM   #5
 
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it appears to happen at a certain rpm, always above 4100rpm in all 3 of those logs. It seems the ecu or something is turning up IDC as im seeing it rise into the 90's on those 3 logs, but on the log I posted without the issue, they are only high 70's low 80's at same boost levels and rpm
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 Old 06-12-2018, 09:18 AM   #6
 
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Sorry, I can't view logs on my phone.

I'm assuming you aren't seeing any KR either.
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Manley Pistons & H-Tuff Rods, King Bearings
Stock Head/Cams, Stock Int/Exh Manifolds
Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, NGK6510, CP-e TMIC
CS Turbo/DP/RP/HPFP/BPV/R-DiffMount
White Widow F-DiffMount, Whiteline RSB
Russian Bushings in Back, Poly FSB Bushings, Magnaflow CBE, ACT sprung 6-puck/Streetlite
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AWR TMM on stand-by
Other rides:
2002 Tacoma ExtCab 2.4L 5spd 2WD - 355k mile Speed support vehicle.
2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015 and I really need to get rid of it)
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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 Old 06-12-2018, 09:32 AM   #7
 
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nothing significant interms of knock. few 0.36, 0.7 points but that's about it

something is causing my IDC's to shoot up. if I compare the rich logs to the previous logs, at the same rpm, boost, load, g/s, throttle position, everything is the same, only difference are IDC's and the AFRs as a result
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 Old 06-12-2018, 12:15 PM   #8
 
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How many miles on the car? If you've ruled out boost/vacuum leaks it could just be a bad O2 sensor, worn injector seals, or sticking throttle body. All common once you get up in the mileage.
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 Old 06-12-2018, 12:31 PM   #9
 
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Originally Posted by Solarsurge View Post
How many miles on the car? If you've ruled out boost/vacuum leaks it could just be a bad O2 sensor, worn injector seals, or sticking throttle body. All common once you get up in the mileage.
car has 111,000KM on it, so about 69,000 miles. I was thinking maybe bad o2 but would that cause the increase in IDC im seeing for no apparent reason? also im not sure if I need to try a higher pressure boost leak test again? the car was recently boost leak tested up to 25 psi and no leaks found and just yesterday I did a low pressure smoke test with no leaks found
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 Old 06-12-2018, 01:12 PM   #10
 
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Originally Posted by gotovato View Post
car has 111,000KM on it, so about 69,000 miles. I was thinking maybe bad o2 but would that cause the increase in IDC im seeing for no apparent reason? also im not sure if I need to try a higher pressure boost leak test again? the car was recently boost leak tested up to 25 psi and no leaks found and just yesterday I did a low pressure smoke test with no leaks found
The Cobb AP does not actually read the O2 sensor for its AFR values. It's reading your fuel tables. So, if your O2 sensor is bad, your car, which is actually reading the O2 sensor data, will just try to throw more fuel at it which will increase your IDC and make you run rich. But there's no guarantee that's what your issue actually is. It could be a boost/vacuum leak, bad injector seals, fuel pump could be going bad, you could have bad plugs, etc.

I would start with the easiest first and work my way down:
1. See if you can smell gas anywhere in your engine bay
2. Check around HPFP/fuel lines and see if there are any wet spots
3. Check front of block and under IM for wet spots
4. Pull plugs and check for proper gap/fouling
5. Check intake tract for leaks
6. Check turbo manifold/exhaust for any visible signs of leaks (soot)
7. Have O2 sensor tested
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 Old 06-12-2018, 01:30 PM   #11
 
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Originally Posted by Solarsurge View Post
The Cobb AP does not actually read the O2 sensor for its AFR values. It's reading your fuel tables. So, if your O2 sensor is bad, your car, which is actually reading the O2 sensor data, will just try to throw more fuel at it which will increase your IDC and make you run rich. But there's no guarantee that's what your issue actually is. It could be a boost/vacuum leak, bad injector seals, fuel pump could be going bad, you could have bad plugs, etc.

I would start with the easiest first and work my way down:
1. See if you can smell gas anywhere in your engine bay
2. Check around HPFP/fuel lines and see if there are any wet spots
3. Check front of block and under IM for wet spots
4. Pull plugs and check for proper gap/fouling
5. Check intake tract for leaks
6. Check turbo manifold/exhaust for any visible signs of leaks (soot)
7. Have O2 sensor tested

thanks for the suggestions i will have to give the car further inspection. how would i go about testing the o2 sensor? the plugs are recent an i know i gapped them correctly but ill pull one a check. would an exhaust leak cause the issue im having?
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 Old 06-12-2018, 02:23 PM   #12
 
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Originally Posted by gotovato View Post
thanks for the suggestions i will have to give the car further inspection. how would i go about testing the o2 sensor? the plugs are recent an i know i gapped them correctly but ill pull one a check. would an exhaust leak cause the issue im having?
For an excellent article that demonstrates how exhaust leaks can affect your O2 sensor readings, check this out:
How An Exhaust Leak Affects Wideband/O2 Sensor Readings

Now, taking into account the example in that article of the blown out exhaust gasket that caused the AFR to go from 12.2 to 15.1 at the O2 sensor, your car reads your lean condition and adds more fuel to bring it back to 12.2 and now you're actually running rich. Fortunately for us, since the AP reads the fuel tables instead, it will show you that you're running rich, since it's not reading the 15.1 from the O2 sensor. It will instead read around 9.85.

**Edited for correct math in example**

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 Old 06-12-2018, 04:24 PM   #13
 
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Originally Posted by Solarsurge View Post
For an excellent article that demonstrates how exhaust leaks can affect your O2 sensor readings, check this out:
How An Exhaust Leak Affects Wideband/O2 Sensor Readings

Now, taking into account the example in that article of the blown out exhaust gasket that caused the AFR to go from 12.2 to 15.1 at the O2 sensor, your car reads your lean condition and adds more fuel to bring it back to 12.2 and now you're actually running rich. Fortunately for us, since the AP reads the fuel tables instead, it will show you that you're running rich, since it's not reading the 15.1 from the O2 sensor. It will instead read around 9.3.
Ok that makes sense why am exhaust leak would cause the car to go rich. It's possible I may have an exhaust leak for sure. Will have to check for exhaust leaks I think. This issue has to be an exhaust leak or a bad o2 sensor. That makes the most sense but why does it only happen higher up in the rpm?
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 Old 06-12-2018, 04:53 PM   #14
 
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Originally Posted by gotovato View Post
Ok that makes sense why am exhaust leak would cause the car to go rich. It's possible I may have an exhaust leak for sure. Will have to check for exhaust leaks I think. This issue has to be an exhaust leak or a bad o2 sensor. That makes the most sense but why does it only happen higher up in the rpm?
Pressurized seals don't leak at a constant rate. It may not even leak at all until you hit a certain pressure that makes the seal fail. But like I said, I wouldn't rule out a fuel pressure issue, either. IDC only raises that high when your fuel pump is giving it all she's got trying to keep up with fuel demand. Injector seals are shitty little washers from the factory that easily fail or your fuel pump could be shitting the bed. But rather than tearing down your entire engine bay, start with the small stuff and pray you find the issue before you have to disassemble your engine bay lol
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 Old 06-12-2018, 08:08 PM   #15
 
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Originally Posted by Solarsurge View Post
Pressurized seals don't leak at a constant rate. It may not even leak at all until you hit a certain pressure that makes the seal fail. But like I said, I wouldn't rule out a fuel pressure issue, either. IDC only raises that high when your fuel pump is giving it all she's got trying to keep up with fuel demand. Injector seals are shitty little washers from the factory that easily fail or your fuel pump could be shitting the bed. But rather than tearing down your entire engine bay, start with the small stuff and pray you find the issue before you have to disassemble your engine bay lol
Lol damn. Hoping I don't have to start disassembling my engine bay. I'm hoping it's as simple as an exhaust leak. Now if it is injector seals I take it it would be pretty easy to notice leaks in that area? Under the intake manifold? Should be simple enough to take a look under there and see if I can smell any gas in that area
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 Old 06-13-2018, 05:37 AM   #16
 
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You are going rich due to knock. I only looked at the first log thou but from that log thats what i am seeing. The car throws more fuel in when the car knocks. Next it pulls timing equal to the kr you are getting (.5 kr = timing reduced by .5) until the kr goes away. It isnt going away so the car just incrementaly adds more fuel and takes more timing away as rpms increase.

Take a gallon of e85 and add it to a full tank. If it goes away look into some meth or ask to get retuned.
If it dosent chances are your injector seals are leaking and fucking yo couch.

Edit: your mas airflow isnt smooth so i would also check the plugs for a proper gap.
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 Old 06-13-2018, 06:02 AM   #17
 
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Originally Posted by 5doorsoffury View Post
You are going rich due to knock. I only looked at the first log thou but from that log thats what i am seeing. The car throws more fuel in when the car knocks. Next it pulls timing equal to the kr you are getting (.5 kr = timing reduced by .5) until the kr goes away. It isnt going away so the car just incrementaly adds more fuel and takes more timing away as rpms increase.

Take a gallon of e85 and add it to a full tank. If it goes away look into some meth or ask to get retuned.
If it dosent chances are your injector seals are leaking and fucking yo couch.

Edit: your mas airflow isnt smooth so i would also check the plugs for a proper gap.
i have no e85 around here unfortunately. I thought it might be knock related, but ive never seen a car dump fuel like that for a few points of knock, not even a full degree of knock is registered, on the flip side, i thought the knock may be caused due to the rich AFR. also there are parts of the log that are clean yet the car just keeps getting richer. Plugs may be something to check as i have replaced them about a month ago but i made sure gaps were all perfect
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 Old 06-13-2018, 04:38 PM   #18
 
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What are your short/ long term fuel trims? If you really have a leak it should show up under closed loop.
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 Old 06-13-2018, 04:46 PM   #19
 
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Originally Posted by 5doorsoffury View Post
What are your short/ long term fuel trims? If you really have a leak it should show up under closed loop.
This is a good point. I have not checked those. I take it I just need to log some regular driving for a bit and take a look or is a idle log good enough?
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 Old 06-14-2018, 04:26 AM   #20
 
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Originally Posted by gotovato View Post
This is a good point. I have not checked those. I take it I just need to log some regular driving for a bit and take a look or is a idle log good enough?
Take a maf cal log that should cover everything
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 Old 06-14-2018, 04:41 AM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by 5doorsoffury View Post
Take a maf cal log that should cover everything
perfect will do! i know at one point it was pretty solid so i guess ill see pretty quickly if theres an issue there. Also i was beginning to think maybe the o2 could just be bad?
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 Old 07-31-2018, 12:56 PM   #22
 
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issues been resolved. was a problem in the tune
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