Scion FRS vs WRX vs MS3
 

5 Minutes to a Faster 2013 Scion FR-S - YouTube
FRS needs stickier tires to get .6 seconds faster than our stock MS3.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i1.../frswrxms3.jpg
Stock MS3 > stock FRS > WRX
Another win for our FWD MS3!

hells yeah!!!

I'm going to show this to all the subaru fanboys i know.

Good to know that our cars can handle their own against awd, and rwd

So this shows how big a difference tires make. Why not run all three on the star specs so that tires are no longer effecting the outcome and the chassis/suspension are able to be judged. I dont doubt the GenPu is faster than the WRX around a road course though. WRX is closer to the gen 1 MS3 in the handling department.

They are probably trying to promote/justify toyota's new bastard child celica car and how even though it comes with no great options, you should still buy it because it will be faster than 2 other completly stock cars:thinking:

Sure but realize that 95% of this forum has never actually tracked their car on a road course. Are the cars capable? Of course. But for what ever reason most people here try to get the MS3 to do something it honestly sucks at. Drag racing. Where is the fun in saying my car will beat your car on a road course when most people never have any intention of driving it on one. I hope comparos like this encourage more guys to track their cars at least once.

lol maybe someday, I honestly do want to try autocross, especially before any modifications to suspension.

But I bought this car because it would be fun to beat more expensive cars on the highway in a fail wheel drive wagon, and still be able to pickup the kids from school without folding seats back for them to get to the back.

ms3 ftmfw! The FR-S needs to lose the Prius tires

I've been saying this for a while now about the road course. Everyone talking about how good the brz will be around a track but very few of them will ever see a track, so for the street I've always seen the ms3 as a better street car.

I'm one of the few that HAS tracked my car and it's been phenomenal, despite my poor tires. The best part is that I've driven it home from the track and it's been incredibly comfortable on the street too.

1- To have a fair test all cars need to bo on the same tire.
2- Why did Scion give the FR-S such a crap tire?
3- This also proves that larger diameter wheels are not better on a track in most cases then OEM diameter.
4- With that being said, I'll take a RWD car over AWD or FWD anyday.

BUT, this little MS3 never ceses to amaze me.

Repost...

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...n-fr-s-117692/

Because then the ms3 would win like it did wen they were all on stock tires, which are total shit on the pu's, and they wouldn't be able to advertise the scion.
Oh and FUCKING REPOST!

Can't find the vid on youtube anymore that I saw the other day but it indicated that they did that with the narrow rims and tires on purpose to make the car easy to drift, it breaks loose easily but because of good weight distribution is very easy to control and slide around corners in, etc.

They used low grip Prius tires so that drivers could explore the limits of the car at lower speeds.

and sticky tires would be more apt to expose any potential chassis faults.

and because they can advertise better mpg numbers with rock hard rubber

Sorry to inform you that the frs/brz isnt built for ultimate grip out of the box. You dont need grip to have fun and I think that is the premise of the car.

The rear stock ms3 suspension is not something I would wabt to be comparing anything to either.

They were probably also shifting at the wrong rpm's, as in most vids that star a Mazda Speed in it.

I only had experience with the 1st gen but it was very unsettled on anything but a perfectly flat road. I have heard that the genpu is better in this regard.

amen

They should have just done a compare and contrast experiement of all cars straight from the factory around a track, and then put the same aftermarket tire on all of them and run them again. That way it would show the public what they would get if they took it off the lot and straight to the track and ran it with factory tires, and what the car is "capable" of with a performance tire on it. Rather than a biased limited experiment review like this. Who knows what the MS3 and the WRX could have done if they had a tire to keep it on track to where they could really let loose out there

Aren't our stock dunlops pretty good???
I honestly think the ms3 should have been faster, 63hp more with great handling!
It came down to the driver, they probly drove the speed the same way they did the rev happy frs!

No the tires are crap.

I've owned both the Bridgestones (Gen1) and Dunlops (Gen2) and the Bridgestones were a better tire.

The WRX uses similarly shit Dunlop SP Sport 01's. How hard would it be for manufacturers to make a deal with Hankook and throw some Ventus V12's as OEM tires. OEM tires are always utter garbage.

the wrx has shitty stock tires aswell. i believe if the wrx was geared like the speed 3 and fr-s it would be on top.

the shorter gear ratios and that extra gear mean you are usually always able to match match the gear to the perfect spot in the rev range, yet you still have the ability to hit it on the straights.

and i think the stock tires are pretty good for the speed(atleast in the summer heat):shhh:

to add, comparing a track car to cars that arent track is just stupid. sad thing is the speed and wrx can beat the fr-s in its own game. (and noone can say "well they cost alot more..." cuz they dont)

Agreed. I realize this is the first year, and gen for Toyota's and Subaru's new rwd cars, but to me they failed hard with the lack of really doing anything with the car. For instance why would you not put the turbo boxer motor in there? That car with a 300hp turbo motor, would be fun. I know Toyota could think of something....hell they created the Supra. but instead they offer a N/A motor, with very few options for the car itself aside the standard flappy paddles and fancy headlights.

Its like a base Miata with a back seat

V12's aren't any good either, but no one is putting star specs or r-s3's on from the factory.
To get a better tire, you need to buy a real sports car.

I totally agree.
If you change the tranny, and the tires, the suspension and and the drivetrain and make the wrx a completely different car, it would be on top.

The V12's are much better than the stock tires on the Mazdaspeed 3 and the WRX. I would rather have better tires than the OEM garbage. Then again I forgot you were a pro race driver and you believe anything other than R-comps is for pussies.

Agreed. I think the lack of a turbo motor from the get go was due to Toyota having a giant vagina and not wanting something boosted. Subaru will have a snail in there soon enough.

V12's aren't even on par with the potenzas that came on the Genwon.

Ditching the dunlops and going to continental dws all seasons was an upgrade on my pu.

Lol @ Toyota. If I wanted a Toyota I'd get a Camry:P

One of the magazines last month I believe, not sure if it was MotorTrend or Road & Track, did a comparison with the Toyota BRZ, Scion FRS, and the Subaru BRZ. The BRZ ass blasted the other two. Magazine comparisons like the video above always leave me puzzled cause they didn't pick the best car in that segment. Wonder how much money Scion gave them

I've also had the DWS tires - and they're too soft for cornering. If we're talking drag racing then yes they are better.

They didn't put the turbo boxer in it because the engine was designed from the ground up using Toyota's new pi/di technology. I'm guessing Subaru only did this joint venture so they could have access to the technology.


I'm willing to bet Subaru will be turning out some EPIC cars soon using it, but Toyota will continue to be pussies about it. Although I applaud Toyota for finally getting back into the"performance" game (unlike the rest of the ricer scion brand), I do not see them busting out with anything comparable to a supra.


The possibilities will be endless with Subaru + FI + DI/PI + a tuning solution (Cobb)!

i dont know if your trying to be a smart ass or what, but i didnt mean it like that. i only meant the wrx isnt geared for tracking. the track car is the sti. which is a better buy than the brz. im just simply saying they are comparing cars that aren't roadsters to a brand new roadster, built for only 1 thing. to make all you people buy it so that next year they make an sti model like they should have and everyone's stuck with the 200hp brz/frs because they wanted to drive something they thought noone else would have.


wrx/sti are better buys.
why you ask??

4 doors....thank you
awd......thank you
300 hp.....thank you
strong trans......thank you
decent brakes.....thank you
sedan or hatch.....thank you
straight line drag or track day you'll be a force to reckon......thank you
a car that sets records in stock trim for its price class and above......your welcome.

not to mention they changed the tires on the frs, so what if they put some tires on the speed or wrx.

i would not waste my money on the brz until they put some work into it. throw a little turbo powah in there and you have a golden opportunity to show off the new rx-7.

not to mention the hyundai beat it around the track......

You're*
Smartass=natural predator of dumbass.

It's a coupé.
Not a roadster.

Awd no thank you.
Since when does the wrx have a strong tranny?

What record does wrx/sti have in stock form?


I already stated if they had put the tires on the other two cars, the speed would have come out on top, as it did when they were on stock tires with the frs.

I kind of agree with that statement, while the sidewall is pretty soft and the feel is nowhere near the same, I feel that I the compound is better, even in the high heat we have had recently to the point where I can corner faster.

All season tires are just that. The worst possible option in all seasons.

My stockers are starting to crack between the threads! The fuck...

Sent from my Atrix

Jack of all trades, master of none, not that i care, they are fine for what i need from the car 99% of the time, and if i want to go fast i have a bike.

i no has money to go through lots of tires frequently

it rains a lot here

what rubber i has get

Michelin super sports.

Someone should post this on ft86club.com's forum

Depends on what you like, to me:

2 doors over 4 doors, just looks way better.
RWD over AWD if you can drive.
Coupe over hatch or sedan, again looks better.
Most average drivers will be quicker on a track in the FR-S/BR-Z as they seem to be very forgiving and easy to control.

I think there's a very fun factor in beating someone in a front wheel drive car.

Just my opinion but if you're the one driving out of your friends often, more than one guy getting out of a 2 door anything looks just slightly homo. Maybe a Father and younger son I can take.

But win if you just spend all week wine and dining with gf.

I think the CTS-V Wagon is the one I'd go for before the coupe and sedan.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/var/ezfl...port-wagon.jpg

I also like how the E36 M3 looks best in the rarer 4 door model.

Disregarding price, I think the GT86 looks pretty fun, for a noob like me, all NA 200hp would be plenty and probably give me more confidence on the track.

Upgrade?! LOL I have some you can buy...

Worst tire ever. If the MS3 cam ewith gummy bear tires like that I would have never bought it. Do your self a favor and pass.

The WRXs transmission since 2009 uses thicker legacy GT gears. While not "strong" it will hold 380- 400wtq as a daily driver. Hardly the old glass transmission.

Bullshit. I went from the crap potenzas to the V12. Better turn in and lateral grip. Straightline grip was the same though.

I tracked my car with DWS's a few weeks back. Sidewall flex is bad and when they get heated they start to get greasy. Good all arounder for daily driving but I know I am giving up cornering performance for all weather capabilities.

I just got an MS3, with the crap Dunlop sport tires, took it out for autocrossing and a track day already, (I'm one of those guys), jesus, its a great track car, autocross, not so much, the turbo bogs down unless you left foot break, which I hate doing, anyway, this car has amazing performance capabilities that have nothing to do with drag racing, putting a huge big turbo on it, etc, , for the money, there really isn't anything like this, yes you can get a dialed in rear wheel or all wheel drive, but really for far more money. The actual price you'll pay is far less than invoice, I got mine for 21.5, what else is even close to this?

Nothing.

I agree about the performance for value.
The new Mustang GT and MS3 are the two best performance cars for the dollar on the market right now.

The Cobalt SS/TC was and the new Focus ST will be a direct competitor. I agree with you that the cars fantastic capabilities really shine in the corners. 21.5k for a brand new MS3 is a borderline robbery. lol

ive roll raced a few WRXs and beat them in my stock car vs there modded cars for the guy saying how great the WRX is in drag racing.

I think there's another pretty compelling element in this test. On the FRS, diameter/weight aside, there was NO increase in cornering speed with a 20mm wider tire of the same compound. I've talked to many racers who swear by aspect-ratio-to-wheel-width over fitting the widest tire possible under the wells. And I think this community could benefit from that approach as well.

After driving several variants, I'm convinced that 225/40/18 on an 8-8.5" wheel is a match made in heaven for our cars.

But 235/40/18 is the closest thing to stock rollout diametre.

Jesus fucking Christ. It never ends. You talk about drag racing and use an example of a highway roll race to prove your point. Don't you see how stupid that is?

Here, compare it to this

Is that a good rear suspension ? Tee Hee

http://wpc.556e.edgecastcdn.net/8055...vtaZ59_1_m.jpg


yeeeyyyaa netflix movie about wrx drag racing (:

Honestly, I didn't hate it.

Apparently we can do 10's in a subaru with a single parts trip to pep boys.

2013 Scion FR-S vs 2013 Hyundai Genesis Coupe 2.0T R-Spec : Car Reviews

I'd take the FRS vs the new 274hp gencoupe, despite price/power ratio.

I'd be very motivated to get on the track often.

Meh I'd take a used rx8 over both of them

I'd wait for something good to come out.

I agree with the aspect ratio approach and think Mazda should be given credit here, they really made the new MS3 very much a driver's car, aggressive toe and camber, a more dialed in suspension compared to the previous generation, mostly in regard to compliance, and I guess they can be forgiven putting the dunlops on, they are serviceable for what I do, and after I shred them, I'm probably going with the Bridgestone's. Does anyone have other suggestions. I use the star specs on my neon acr and have had good autox results on it, but its a much lighter and lower powered car. And in terms of the FRS, etc, they are apparently quite well sorted for handling, probably an ultimate stock momentum car. I do know that the toyota/subaru differences are more about different flavors, etc, if you want to do A, then pick the Toyota/Scion, if you want to do more B then pick Subaru, etc

Apparently if you want more hp, pick the baru.
If you live in japan, pick the yot.
If you have a vagina, pick the scion.

LOL

I bet there's a few owners cringing with their new vagina that are paying for express shipping for Toyota badges.

so from what i gather from this thread, nearly everyone only cares about drag racing. lulz.

damn fast and the furious generation.

:dance:

Nope. I'm a circuit racer. And my car is still faster then the rwd scion.

I think a lot of people are really "missing the point" of the new FR-S/FT86/BRZ.

It's not always about lap times and "the numbers."

It's about bringing a wonderfully balanced, low COG, RWD car to the masses. One that, while not the fastest thing around a racetrack, just might be one of the most fun to drive in such a manner, and isn't so high strung that most novices can't really extract most of what it has to offer without a ridiculous amount of seat time.

It's like the SV650 of cars. :)

I hate to say it, but that kinda sounds like a miata!

we dont have any tracks near where i live and we did some dig runs too so we just race where we can

as long as you no lift shift

I have driven all 3
If they ever came out with a turbo brz/frs sti variant etc. I'd choose that over the speed3.. But since its slow as balls the way it is now.. MS3 FTMFW!!!!! the wrx can eat 5 dicks

Says the guy with more cosmetic mods than power mods. Who are you kidding you would feel right at home in an old riced out bug eye WRX.

I Don't have any cosmetic mods... Avatar's of my last speed3 that was fully bolted.. My current one is bone stock execpet for HID's cosmetically.. Nice try troll!:lame:

Cosmetic...

Parts off the last speed3 are in my garage. Like I said 3k lows are my only cosmetic mod.
Next mods in this order are HPFP, AP and coilz.. How do you like that Wrx btw.. I like the car but just not as much as my GenWon

It boils down to this. The WRX is much cheaper to get power out of than the MS3. At about 350-380who you reach the "safe" limit of the engine and transmission on the car. The MS3 can go beyond that. With Front and Rear sways the WRX feels about the same as my old MS3. WRX is easier to corner for a noob like me because of AWD. Interior goes to the MS3. Launching obviously goes to the WRX. Both cars are great. Basically I chose the WRX because its bang for buck cannot be touched by the MS3 up to a point and I like AWD, always have.

As for reliability at sane power levels I would say its a toss up. Both cars have known weak spots but the reliability seems decent. I had issues with my k04 on the MS3 at 15k miles. The WRX has yet to have an issue.

Fuck ya'll.

Ford Transit is more fastest and most furiously.

Maybe I need to drive one with suspension mods. I always wanted one growing up. And fwd does get annoying at stoplights with the v8's in Michigan

you didn't actually watch that movie did you? If you did, you'd known in a junk yard, there exists parts to turn a bugeyed wrx into a 06 sti. Also, to be fair, that finished sti was used on a street circuit race, very obviously fast forwarded while running against a skyline.

I must have bad memory, I don't remember a bugeye wrx, a street circuit race, junkyard or a skyline in that movie? Am I misunderstanding your question?

I remember his dad selling a buick GNX to fund the parts for his car, of which he got "hooked up" with by an old friend at pep boys.

The 2011-2012 models handle pretty well. Not as good as a GenPu but with some sways the turn in is much better and it corners completely flat. I can throw the WRX at corners mash the throttle when the back end starts to slide and rocket out of a corner. Seriously the car is soo fucking forgiving and fun in the corners compared to my old MS3. While the MS3 is more technical about taking a corner the fun factor is off the chart with the WRX. On top of that you can put down enough power to hit 11's in the 1/4 mile for about $1k in mods if you sell the stock turbo. MS3/MS6 won't come close to that price point. If you want to go faster than high 11's the WRX is not your car though. Go past 400whp and you are asking for issues with the tranny or pistons.

I would suggest you drive one though and see what you think.

This is good to see. My buddy has an '11 rex and while he admits my speed 3 is faster in a straight line, he claims it wouldn't even be close around a track. Suck it subie

The cars seem to be for three different things in my experience. I just test drove all three, and decided on the 2010 MS3 for a number of reasons.

The FR-S is a completely impractical machine. It's sharp looking, and looks like it would be fun to throw around. But its hard to justify it for anything besides that fun. It's more comparable to a MX-5 than a MS3.

The WRX is certainly a beast at low speed cornering and dead stop launches. It's not kind on fuel thou, and has Subaru's legendary cheap interior. It seems to have a price premium over the MS3 based on the AWD feature.

The MS3 is definitely the fastest at highway speeds. It goes from 40 km/h to 120 km/h like snot. It also has the easiest steering input, and likely the best mileage. The interior quality blows away the WRX for the same price.

In the end it was an easy choice. The dealer also offered me 2k more for my trade than the other two as well FWIW.

Exactly. Anyway we have both cars with my wife owning the frs and I think both cars are cool, but I'll proably trade in the speed3 for something else.

good.

Cool story bro.

Ask me about the FRS...there are a lot of inaccurate assumptions in here from people who have never drove or been in one.

Yeah bro, if you spend 1,500 on mods (accounting for your sale of the stock turbo) you can run 11s in a wrx! Triple or quadruple that and maybe..

i hear it likes boost.

I will admit the 170hp 140tq dyno numbers completely shut down any incentive I had to look at the car, even with the 2800 curb weight. I think they look great, everyone raves about the wonderfully tuned chassis, and it would probably be an oil and filters 150k mile car with minimal issues.

But I'd just come from a Civic Si with that lack of power, and it blew. If they had an STI/TRD turbo model that made ~250-280, that's what I'd probably be driving today.

I couldn't see myself driving a car that's supposedly a sports car with dyno numbers that low. I'd rather take a genesis turbo or v6 with brembos if I was going to go the rwd route. They may not look as good but you'd at least have FI or a 300hp v6 engine. I know they weigh a bit more though.

Hence, MS6 ftw.

Driven *

This thread is also over a year old, when the car was brand spanking new... Most of this thread was just speculation at that point.

Did not catch that as I was looking through the comments....I will enlighten all when I get behind a computer 2maro b/c tapatalk.

Sent from my yotaru

@Tokay444; An engine with a 12.5 CR and an 86mm square bore/stroke is not ideal for boost…there are a few basic bolt on turbo kits that will put you in the 300hp range on 93 and that’s right at the knock ceiling. WMI and/or E85 will get you closer to 400hp mark. The few SC on that market will net around 220-260. The FA20 is still a very young platform and lots of kinks are being worked to find the power. But for all intents and purposes….the FI twins I mentioned above are still slow. Bolt ons/BT/tuning a factory boosted car is fine and dandy b/c the cost vs gain is in the positive for sure (i.e. MS3). In the case of the FRS/BRZ, you’re spending $4-6K to boost a factory NA car and not getting much to show for it. (I.e. still in the 13’s)

@JgamB; that’s your problem for just looking at the spec sheet. This is a totally diff platform than a MS3 or Civic SI that calls for a completely different driving style and mentality. I had to completely re-learn how to drive this car in a spirited manner and get the most of that minuscule #’s transitioning from the Speed3. Once you learn that you’re not driving a mash the gas at 3000rpm and hold on kind of car, you focus on driving technique, carrying momentum, braking, and choosing smooth lines. And I see now that it is much more rewarding and over all I do enjoy driving this car more than my speed3.

@Jpspeedthree; Drive both genius’s and the FRS/BRZ back to back and let me know with is the better driver’s car. Looking back on the history of the AE86, it was a light weight, well balanced “sports car”, Very much a purist’s car. In the case of marketing to the general public, ricers, fan boys, noobs, homosexuals, and actual car enthusiast; everyone is going to look at the car in a different light, most obscured by the performance #’s.

@Fatguy729; still is….

What will the rods/pistons handle? Clutch/Transmission? 12.5 is high but not with WMI/E85.

So far the FRS/BRZ's in the 300 are holding up pretty well, more issues with DI seals and fueling than anthing else. Stock clutch is only good for up to about 300hp. Anybody going FI is upgrading the clutch.

We take for granted how awesome our clutch/transmission really is I think.

Weird that they'd have fueling issues with the PI though

i would buy 12 brz's/frs's before i put money down on a genesis.

Agreed... they're both slow, but one handles and will have (has?) a large aftermarket