Scion FRS vs WRX vs MS3

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by NoTraction Maybe I need to drive one with suspension mods. I always wanted one growing up. And fwd does get annoying at stoplights with the v8's in Michigan

The 2011-2012 models handle pretty well. Not as good as a GenPu but with some sways the turn in is much better and it corners completely flat. I can throw the WRX at corners mash the throttle when the back end starts to slide and rocket out of a corner. Seriously the car is soo fucking forgiving and fun in the corners compared to my old MS3. While the MS3 is more technical about taking a corner the fun factor is off the chart with the WRX. On top of that you can put down enough power to hit 11's in the 1/4 mile for about $1k in mods if you sell the stock turbo. MS3/MS6 won't come close to that price point. If you want to go faster than high 11's the WRX is not your car though. Go past 400whp and you are asking for issues with the tranny or pistons.

I would suggest you drive one though and see what you think.

[Zoorah12]

This is good to see. My buddy has an '11 rex and while he admits my speed 3 is faster in a straight line, he claims it wouldn't even be close around a track. Suck it subie

[BlackBandit]

The cars seem to be for three different things in my experience. I just test drove all three, and decided on the 2010 MS3 for a number of reasons.

The FR-S is a completely impractical machine. It's sharp looking, and looks like it would be fun to throw around. But its hard to justify it for anything besides that fun. It's more comparable to a MX-5 than a MS3.

The WRX is certainly a beast at low speed cornering and dead stop launches. It's not kind on fuel thou, and has Subaru's legendary cheap interior. It seems to have a price premium over the MS3 based on the AWD feature.

The MS3 is definitely the fastest at highway speeds. It goes from 40 km/h to 120 km/h like snot. It also has the easiest steering input, and likely the best mileage. The interior quality blows away the WRX for the same price.

In the end it was an easy choice. The dealer also offered me 2k more for my trade than the other two as well FWIW.

[erik]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny Jack of all trades, master of none, not that i care, they are fine for what i need from the car 99% of the time, and if i want to go fast i have a bike.

Exactly. Anyway we have both cars with my wife owning the frs and I think both cars are cool, but I'll proably trade in the speed3 for something else.

[Tokay444]

good.

[Code Monkey]

Cool story bro.

[leon78]

Ask me about the FRS...there are a lot of inaccurate assumptions in here from people who have never drove or been in one.

[Jpspeedthree]

Originally Posted by dsmluck The 2011-2012 models handle pretty well. Not as good as a GenPu but with some sways the turn in is much better and it corners completely flat. I can throw the WRX at corners mash the throttle when the back end starts to slide and rocket out of a corner. Seriously the car is soo fucking forgiving and fun in the corners compared to my old MS3. While the MS3 is more technical about taking a corner the fun factor is off the chart with the WRX. On top of that you can put down enough power to hit 11's in the 1/4 mile for about $1k in mods if you sell the stock turbo. MS3/MS6 won't come close to that price point. If you want to go faster than high 11's the WRX is not your car though. Go past 400whp and you are asking for issues with the tranny or pistons. I would suggest you drive one though and see what you think.

Yeah bro, if you spend 1,500 on mods (accounting for your sale of the stock turbo) you can run 11s in a wrx! Triple or quadruple that and maybe..

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by leon78 Ask me about the FRS...there are a lot of inaccurate assumptions in here from people who have never drove or been in one.

i hear it likes boost.

[JgamB]

Originally Posted by leon78 Ask me about the FRS...there are a lot of inaccurate assumptions in here from people who have never drove or been in one.

I will admit the 170hp 140tq dyno numbers completely shut down any incentive I had to look at the car, even with the 2800 curb weight. I think they look great, everyone raves about the wonderfully tuned chassis, and it would probably be an oil and filters 150k mile car with minimal issues.

But I'd just come from a Civic Si with that lack of power, and it blew. If they had an STI/TRD turbo model that made ~250-280, that's what I'd probably be driving today.

[Jpspeedthree]

Originally Posted by JgamB I will admit the 170hp 140tq dyno numbers completely shut down any incentive I had to look at the car, even with the 2800 curb weight. I think they look great, everyone raves about the wonderfully tuned chassis, and it would probably be an oil and filters 150k mile car with minimal issues. But I'd just come from a Civic Si with that lack of power, and it blew. If they had an STI/TRD turbo model that made ~250-280, that's what I'd probably be driving today.

I couldn't see myself driving a car that's supposedly a sports car with dyno numbers that low. I'd rather take a genesis turbo or v6 with brembos if I was going to go the rwd route. They may not look as good but you'd at least have FI or a 300hp v6 engine. I know they weigh a bit more though.

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by NoTraction Maybe I need to drive one with suspension mods. I always wanted one growing up. And fwd does get annoying at stoplights with the v8's in Michigan

Hence, MS6 ftw.

[Fatguy729]

Originally Posted by leon78 Ask me about the FRS...there are a lot of inaccurate assumptions in here from people who have never drove or been in one.

Driven *

This thread is also over a year old, when the car was brand spanking new... Most of this thread was just speculation at that point.

[leon78]

Originally Posted by Fatguy729 Driven * This thread is also over a year old, when the car was brand spanking new... Most of this thread was just speculation at that point.

Did not catch that as I was looking through the comments....I will enlighten all when I get behind a computer 2maro b/c tapatalk.

Sent from my yotaru

[leon78]

@Tokay444; An engine with a 12.5 CR and an 86mm square bore/stroke is not ideal for boost…there are a few basic bolt on turbo kits that will put you in the 300hp range on 93 and that’s right at the knock ceiling. WMI and/or E85 will get you closer to 400hp mark. The few SC on that market will net around 220-260. The FA20 is still a very young platform and lots of kinks are being worked to find the power. But for all intents and purposes….the FI twins I mentioned above are still slow. Bolt ons/BT/tuning a factory boosted car is fine and dandy b/c the cost vs gain is in the positive for sure (i.e. MS3). In the case of the FRS/BRZ, you’re spending $4-6K to boost a factory NA car and not getting much to show for it. (I.e. still in the 13’s)

@JgamB; that’s your problem for just looking at the spec sheet. This is a totally diff platform than a MS3 or Civic SI that calls for a completely different driving style and mentality. I had to completely re-learn how to drive this car in a spirited manner and get the most of that minuscule #’s transitioning from the Speed3. Once you learn that you’re not driving a mash the gas at 3000rpm and hold on kind of car, you focus on driving technique, carrying momentum, braking, and choosing smooth lines. And I see now that it is much more rewarding and over all I do enjoy driving this car more than my speed3.

@Jpspeedthree; Drive both genius’s and the FRS/BRZ back to back and let me know with is the better driver’s car. Looking back on the history of the AE86, it was a light weight, well balanced “sports car”, Very much a purist’s car. In the case of marketing to the general public, ricers, fan boys, noobs, homosexuals, and actual car enthusiast; everyone is going to look at the car in a different light, most obscured by the performance #’s.

@Fatguy729; still is….

[BigRedSpecial]

Originally Posted by leon78 @Tokay444; An engine with a 12.5 CR and an 86mm square bore/stroke is not ideal for boost…there are a few basic bolt on turbo kits that will put you in the 300hp range on 93 and that’s right at the knock ceiling. WMI and/or E85 will get you closer to 400hp mark.

What will the rods/pistons handle? Clutch/Transmission? 12.5 is high but not with WMI/E85.

[leon78]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial What will the rods/pistons handle? Clutch/Transmission? 12.5 is high but not with WMI/E85.

So far the FRS/BRZ's in the 300 are holding up pretty well, more issues with DI seals and fueling than anthing else. Stock clutch is only good for up to about 300hp. Anybody going FI is upgrading the clutch.

[BigRedSpecial]

We take for granted how awesome our clutch/transmission really is I think.

Weird that they'd have fueling issues with the PI though

[Tokay444]

i would buy 12 brz's/frs's before i put money down on a genesis.

[BigRedSpecial]

Agreed... they're both slow, but one handles and will have (has?) a large aftermarket

[leon78]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial We take for granted how awesome our clutch/transmission really is I think. Weird that they'd have fueling issues with the PI though

Its port and direct injection....Toyota's input on the engine is the D4S DI

[leon78]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial Agreed... they're both slow, but one handles and will have (has?) a large aftermarket

Has a very good aftermarket for only being out 1 year....very rapid support a crossed the board for ricers and racers alike.

[Celestspeed3]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 Nope. I'm a circuit racer. And my car is still faster then the rwd scion.

I just came across this.

and LOFUCKINGL @ you being a circuit racer, maybe on iRacing.

You have never had your Speed on a track despite the countless invites and callouts from the locals.

A circuit racer, LOLOLOL. Ah that just made my day. Thank You.

[BigRedSpecial]

Originally Posted by leon78 Its port and direct injection....Toyota's input on the engine is the D4S DI

I knew that, I just figured the PI portion could get bigger injectors and carry fueling as high as you wanted (like 5th/6th port)... is this not the case?

Originally Posted by leon78 Has a very good aftermarket for only being out 1 year....very rapid support a crossed the board for ricers and racers alike.

That's what I figured but didn't know for sure. I don't doubt for a second the aftermarket will be massive given time.

Don't think I'm hating on the car, I'm genuinely interested in how their potential is developing. If they come out with a turbo version it'll likely be my next car.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Celestspeed3 I just came across this. and LOFUCKINGL @ you being a circuit racer, maybe on iRacing. You have never had your Speed on a track despite the countless invites and callouts from the locals. A circuit racer, LOLOLOL. Ah that just made my day. Thank You.

Shut your fat fucking sausage fingers when you don't have a clue what you're typing about.
Car HAS been tracked, and this isn't the first car I've ever owned, or even the first one I've ever modded.
I raced karts competitively throughout my youth and most of my teenage years, on, wait for it, a circuit.

[Neverlift]

I wouldn't waste my time being seen with you fools at a track in Canehda either. If iRacing ever found out, I would be flamed.

[Celestspeed3]

Still made my day, and by how pissed you are I just might be right.

But who cares anyway, I still had a good laugh.

[Tokay444]

Oh me too.
How could I get pissed at someone who's built 3 motors, had two fail, and one isn't even installed yet?

[Roddiy]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 Oh me too. How could I get pissed at someone who's built 3 motors, had two fail, and one isn't even installed yet?

[Celestspeed3]

Do any of your posts contain true facts?

I don't see why you keep accusing me of having motors fail, because I haven't built any motors, so you might want to get your stories straight.

The one that isn't installed yet is a spare. I don't see why you keep bringing that up. The purpose of a spare is to sit around. You should work on that comprehension stuff you keep mention to me. I'm sure Websters will define "spare" for you.

Regarding the three motors that failed two were from initial machining issues. One failed from lack of oil under lateral loading. You don't have to believe me, if you want to dispute the 1.55G's from AiM note that the AiM system reads 1.80G's on the DWM racecar with BFG R1's. The very fact that you keep bringing up the motors is comical.

Stop living in the past, if you tracked your speed, pics or it didn't happen.

[Tokay444]

lawl @ your 1.55g.

[leon78]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial I knew that, I just figured the PI portion could get bigger injectors and carry fueling as high as you wanted (like 5th/6th port)... is this not the case? That's what I figured but didn't know for sure. I don't doubt for a second the aftermarket will be massive given time. Don't think I'm hating on the car, I'm genuinely interested in how their potential is developing. If they come out with a turbo version it'll likely be my next car.

Indeed...we have up to 1000cc (PI) injectors available if need be....but failures in the DI system are coming up more and more....mostly on NA car that are tracked heavily.

NCE about turbo version or getting lots of HP out of mine....the 150 I put down to the wheels is more than competitive in autox with proper supporting mods.

[Celestspeed3]

Lawl @ your 400wtq on K04. Oh wait MSF already did that.

Back on topic.


The driving experience in the FRS/BRZ is surprising. My supervisor bought on and the sitting position is very nice compared to my speed even with the sparco.

[leon78]

Originally Posted by Celestspeed3 The driving experience in the FRS/BRZ is surprising. My supervisor bought on and the sitting position is very nice compared to my speed even with the sparco.

Very true...every one who rides along or drives my car raves about the seats....makes the stock MS3 fell like your driving a mini van...all high up an no support.

[BigRedSpecial]

Originally Posted by leon78 Indeed...we have up to 1000cc (PI) injectors available if need be....but failures in the DI system are coming up more and more....mostly on NA car that are tracked heavily. NCE about turbo version or getting lots of HP out of mine....the 150 I put down to the wheels is more than competitive in autox with proper supporting mods.

Gotcha, I took fueling problems to mean MS3-ish headroom issues, not actual mechanical issues.

I don't doubt the car is perfect for AutoX as is, and I'm glad you like it; I just need something to put a shiteating grin on my face once in a while

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Celestspeed3 Lawl @ your 400wtq on K04. Oh wait MSF already did that. Back on topic. The driving experience in the FRS/BRZ is surprising. My supervisor bought on and the sitting position is very nice compared to my speed even with the sparco.

who else knew the throttle position played a role in hp on a vd graph? not you. that's for sure.
it only brought me down 20 wtq in minus 20 degree temps anyway once we got to the bottom of it and took the throttle plate out of the equation.
but this is a brz thread.

[Celestspeed3]

Doesn't matter Brock, I could care less about VD nor have I ever claimed to know anything about it. I just care about how my car feels. Wasn't it you that thought our transmissions didn't have synchros. Not knowing something about some random computer program is inconsequential compared to not knowing how a modern transmission works. Then you texted me asking if we had synchros, I didn't make fun of you for a stupid Noob question. I replied to you with the correct info so you can educate yourself.
Yet now you seem to go out of your way to demonstrate to this forum that I'm some kind of retard.

Back to the FRS/BRZ it does has synchros very nice ones I might add. I didn't find it notchy as the 3's box but to be honest I prefer the notchy feel.

[Tokay444]

i wasn't sure one way or the other. so i asked.
but again, this is an frs thread.

[JgamB]

Originally Posted by leon78 JgamB that’s your problem for just looking at the spec sheet. This is a totally diff platform than a MS3 or Civic SI that calls for a completely different driving style and mentality. I had to completely re-learn how to drive this car in a spirited manner and get the most of that minuscule #’s transitioning from the Speed3. Once you learn that you’re not driving a mash the gas at 3000rpm and hold on kind of car, you focus on driving technique, carrying momentum, braking, and choosing smooth lines. And I see now that it is much more rewarding and over all I do enjoy driving this car more than my speed3.

It's certainly not a problem for me - I didn't buy one. I don't care how dainty it is for auto-x, it lacks the power to satisfy my demands for daily driving.

I want to get pressed into the seat on straights, and I've felt how lacking a normally aspirated 2.0L is in a 2800lb car, and getting walked by a V6 Camry isn't my idea of a performance vehicle. The MS3 hardly qualifies until you tune it.

I've had my RWD rotary and V8, my AWD turbo DSM, but never a RWD NA 4cyl. I think of the FRS/BRZ as a manlier re-skin of a Miata, and that isn't enough to sell me, much the same as I haven't been impressed with the NA 944 and Elise in years past.

[leon78]

Originally Posted by JgamB It's certainly not a problem for me - I didn't buy one. I don't care how dainty it is for auto-x, it lacks the power to satisfy my demands for daily driving. I want to get pressed into the seat on straights, and I've felt how lacking a normally aspirated 2.0L is in a 2800lb car, and getting walked by a V6 Camry isn't my idea of a performance vehicle. The MS3 hardly qualifies until you tune it. I've had my RWD rotary and V8, my AWD turbo DSM, but never a RWD NA 4cyl. I think of the FRS/BRZ as a manlier re-skin of a Miata, and that isn't enough to sell me, much the same as I haven't been impressed with the NA 944 and Elise in years past.

Different strokes different folks.... if HP satisfies that need for speed in a straight line...enjoy….there are plenty of people in the twin community that will spend thousands of dollars on “JDM” shit for their car so it looks good parked and Zero performance/handling mods. Just like a good number of people in this form fully bolt their cars up and talk about how fast it is but it never sees a 1320, autoX, or circuit….that’s all cool…I don’t hate….I’m just trying to educate peeps what this car is really about….a true drivers car in all matters of the term.