Some questions about the transmission
 

Hey guys, new owner of a '11 as well as a new and still learning manual driver. You can see more details in my New Member post here: Post

Anyway, I have some questions, since it appears there may, or may not, be an issue or issues with the trans. Mazda is looking at it tomorrow, but I want to be absolutely sure of the facts when I arrive there. I'll describe what I am experiencing after the questions. Being inexperienced with driving manual transmissions, I apologize in advance for the faggotry that is soon to follow.

Questions:

• How would you describe the engagement of the factory clutch on your Speed 3? Where does it start to engage? Does it come on strong and consistently, or would you describe it some other way?
  
• When travelling at 40 MPH, you have a turn coming up that you'll have to take at a low speed. You depress the clutch to the floor, and start to move the shifter into second in preparation. I want to be clear, the clutch is fully pressed to the floor and not moved from that position. Do you feel resistance or hear a sound?

What I am experiencing:

• Clutch: My clutch has engagement at about middle of the pedal's range. However, the engagement is worthless. Nothing will happen for 95% of the engagement range. There is a small hit in RPM if I am not applying throttle, but nothing else. The last 1/8 of an inch the clutch will grab, and it grabs hard. I've had some old timers who are manual purists drive it and they agree with this description. I have read on this forum that the factory clutch has a very low engagement point, almost to the floor. My clutch does not reflect this at all. I am wondering if there is either a problem, or the clutch was replaced.
  
• Downshifting: It is a guess but it sounds like I may have a synchro problem, which from my research on this board is common for second gear. When travelling anywhere from 30-40 in 3rd or 4th, if I depress the clutch fully to the floor and try to move the shifter into 2nd it will fight me. The only way I can describe it is that I feel something spinning back against the motion and I hear a whirring sound. Same for moving the shifter into first. I can move the shifter into position with some effort, but I don't force it. I just back it back into neutral and try again when I am moving a bit slower. Again, all of this is with the clutch on the floor. That said, I don't exactly have the experience with manual driving to make that call.

Thanks for any answers you guys may be able to find the time to provide. I know it was a long post and at the least when it comes to the topic of manual transmissions I am a dumbass, but I've exhausted my resources on dealing with these questions myself. One last note of relevance, several weeks before I bought the '11, I test drove a '12 with 20 miles on it. IIRC clutch operation was significantly easier on that test drive, but that may just be rose colored glasses and confirmation bias. I am getting around just fine, but things just don't sound or feel right based on what I have read on this board and the input the general knowledge I've gained through my research. I ask because, for all I know, this all sounds as it should and my transmission is fine. I would much rather be wrong and publicly mocked, than correct and not get things sorted properly.

edit: 7:40 AM EST update. For those just getting here, based on the input provided so far my question/issue with the shifter is likely a PEBSWAS due to a fundamental misunderstanding on my part + being unaware of the transmission lockout on gears. (Explained below by smurugby12, and a few others). The question/issue with the clutch, I would still appreciate input.

The clutch engagement is normal for these cars. I've driven many manuals, and yes this car is different from most (I've had a 3 and a 6). Actually everything you are describing is normal. Especially when trying to downshift into 2nd @ 30-40 mph... Why would you do that? Its resisting you because you should be down shifting to 3rd unless you are autoxing. Whirling sound is normal... grinding would be bad.

Perhaps try adjusting your shifter, or get a short shift plate. If you want smoother shifting switch to the Ford tranny butter.

That does not sound normal to me at all. My brand new OEM clutch on my '07 installed by mazda, engages ~1/3 from the floor, fully engaged by 2/3 from the floor.

Are you slipping at WOT in 4th?

Thanks for the response.

The clutch question was because I have read many posts here about how it starts to engage very low, but mine engages very high. Hopefully you can understand how that confuses me.

As for the latter about downshifting. I wasn't actually trying to downshift in the sense of engine braking, if that is what you meant. Think a very sharp right turn, where you need to come out in second. If I decide not to engine brake, I'll just fully depress the clutch to the floor as I get close and move the shifter into place so it's ready as I exit the turn. I am finding that resistance with the clutch pedal fully pressed. From everything I have read, if the clutch is pressed down to the floor, I should be able to move the shifter into any position I want with minimal or no resistance. I encounter a lot of resistance moving it into position for 2nd if I am above 30, or just moving it into first if I am above 5 mph.

Mine grabs a third of a way from the floor. I've had 7 other manual tranny cars and they have all varied in this, even over time as the clutch wears.

Down shift to second has been met with some resistance on occasion based upon rpm and temperature. Seems normal to me.

Thank for the input. What you described is how I remember the '12 to feel.

Due to the nature of most of my driving I haven't had the opportunity go WOT in 4th in about a week. Most of my fun is in 3rd.

I can probably test it tomorrow on the way to work or at lunch. Just get it completely into 4th and go WOT? Sorry, I've been avoiding performance driving as a whole aside from enjoying winding roads and playing with 3rd. Never put much thought into getting up to speed quickly. Just wanted to be solid on the basics.

Before the last 1/8", maybe 10% of the pressure I put on the throttle makes it to the wheels in any gear. It's made starting on hills and getting into 2nd smoothly...fun.

Thanks!

Input on moving the shifter to second has been pretty split. Had two people drive it today and had both had opposite opinions. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was fine, but I'd like to put my mind at ease.

As for the clutch. Mine is not like that at all. To be generous, it is maybe halfway to the floor. More likely between half and 3/4 before I see an RPM drop.

This.

IKD man, maybe the clutch is roasted...I had an integra where the clutch got real grabby and elevated right before it failed kind of like you're describing, but the car had 114K on it an that point. How does it hold up on hills or when turning or abrupt acceleration? Is it slipping at all?

Keep in mind I am still new at manual and to the car so my answer here is to be taken with a grain of salt. Abrupt acceleration seems to have a delay. For example: If I am in 3rd at 30 and go WOT, it's a small delay for anything meaningful to happen even though the engine has gained some speed.

Best comparison I have is the delay you would experience in a respectable automatic if you stomped on the throttle while cruising and had to wait for it to downshift. You'll get a little at first, but it takes a second or two before the magic happens. It's not instant, but not terrible either.

Going wot at 30 mph in 3rd does not have you in the proper rev range for boost to come on, especially with the taller gears of the pu. In my genJuan, I start wot at 30 mph in 2nd gear. These turbo chargers spool quickly, but you still have to be near 3k to get straight to the boost.

In all the manuals I've driven, no two clutches are the same. I've driven a fellow msfers speed 3 and his was different. You might be experiencing some gear lockout when down shifting, but it sort of sounds to me like you're not rev matching on your downshifts. Especially on my two low gears, if I'm trying to drop to a speed that is a high rev for either gear, its necessary for me to bring the rpm up to get into gear. If, at thirty mph, I try to pull the gear from 4 (or 3) straight to 2, the car no likey. If I pop the throttle a bit before pulling it down to 2, it makes life much happier.

Honestly, rev matching is one of the more important aspects of driving a manual. It saves clutch, gear, and motor mount life.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something on a fundamental level, but why would rev matching matter if the clutch is still down? When I lift off the clutch for engagement I definitely rev match (or at least attempt to) before doing that, but I've never heard anything about having to do it to move the shifter into place. If that is the case, I have honestly never heard or read that before. All I've ever heard is rev matching before you left off the clutch.


30 was more of a rough guesstimate as that's when I usually end up in 3rd when doing some relaxed driving. I can definitely say that WOT in 3rd at 40 it is the exact same as I describe prior.

Feel like a dumbass answering these questions since I don't have a frame of reference or much experience on a 100% known good car. Like I said in another post, it wouldn't surprise me to find that I'm wrong. I'm driving around fine, just seems that clutch engagement is pretty far off from what other MS3 owners see. As for the issue with moving the shifter into another gear, without engaging that gear, that remains to be seen whether or not I am much dumber than I realized.

My 2011 starts to engage closer to 1/2-2/3 from the floor and engages very quickly at that. Has since I drove it off the lot and I'm at 20,000 miles now with little change.

I can't claim to be an expert about rev-matching or the transmissions in general, but the general gist of it is that you want your engine RPMs to closely match the speed at which the flywheel/tranny/synchros are already spinning. Yes our cars have synchros, but they can only do so much. Blipping the throttle when the clutch is to the floor, so RPMs are at nearly the same rate they will be when the clutch is engaged, allows for a smoother transition into gear since all components of the system are at about the same speed.

Like this:
30 MPH in 3rd -> Clutch in -> blip throttle to ~3000-3500 RPM as you move into neutral->immediately go into 2nd -> quickly let out clutch as soon as you're in gear

This should all happen in less than a second and you'll find the shifter easily goes into the gear you intend it to if you match the RPMs closely enough. When you let out the clutch, the engine RPMs are already at ~3000 RPMs so the clutch doesn't have to work to bring the engine speed up to the speed of the transmission producing less jerkiness on engagement. It will be a smooth transition into engine breaking.

This is also useful for fast reaction gear changes on the highway where you're not trying to be too aggressive. What if you're cruising in 6th at 65mph, but want to quickly pass someone? If you just jam it into 4th and let the clutch out, you're liable to smack your face off the steering wheel (yes you could jam the accelerator to the floor before letting out the clutch, but that's why I mention 'not too aggressive'). Clutch in -> blip throttle to 4k/move into 4th -> let the clutch out -> start getting on the gas again.

Seems everyone has their own method for driving stick. I just like the smooth gear change transitions and making the overall ride less jerky. Just try rev-matching once -- you'll see. Much less whirring while getting into the gear you want and quick, easy clutch release afterwards (once you get the hang of it).

From my understanding. Lockout occurs when the RPM difference is too much for one downshift. Say you downshift w/o rev matching from 4th at 2000RPM to 2nd, which has to raise the RPM to 4 or 5000 RPM to match the your current speed. It locks out because that much of an RPM change can cause damage or cause to to crash if you shift too quickly.

If you rev match when shifting from 4th or 2nd, so that when you press the clutch in, blip the throttle to 4000rpm, THEN shift into 2nd, the lockout wont occur because the RPMs will be around the same, or at least not a 2-3000 rpm difference.


IDK if that makes sense. IDK if that even is why a lockout occurs. IDK why I'm even posting. Night.

BTW my clutch take up sounds like yours. Just gotta get used to it

It's easy to mis-understand a transmission, I have trouble and i'm really having to draw this out to think about it. So correct me guys if I make a mistake. When say you were coasting. You put the shifter into 2nd (here the gears are not really moving with the output shaft, they are already meshed with gears on the layshaft and thus moving at the same speed as the engine) So basically when you're coasting in neutral clutch in to stop the movement of the layshaft so that you engage the gear via the dog. Then all you're doing when you're rev matching is matching the engine speed (flywheel) to the speed of the lay shaft.

When you say downshift and need to revmatch from 3rd to 2nd....basically you're reving as you're in nuetral to get the driveshaft which has the dogs on it up to speed via the layshaft so that the dogs can more easily engage into the now faster spinning gears. The synchro's help but if you're making too much of a jump...it helps to help them out.

In summation So one you're matching flywheel speed to the same speed as the layshaft which is now connected to the driveshaft since you're in gear......the other you're matching the dogs (on the shaft) to gear speed.


My clutch is the same...and another I have driven is the same. The engagement is past the 1/2 point if lifting...ie the engagement point further from the floor. And there is little room for the engagement...once it grabs it grabs. Makes for difficult smooth driving. It takes precision and work to get shift super smooth.

The rev matching makes plenty sense, thanks. I thought it was possible, but wasn't able to find anything confirming (or denying) that this transmission had a lockout. One of the reasons that question was asked.


@jeoje that's probably about where mine also starts to engage. However, for the full engagement range hardly any contact is made. At the very end of that small range, it engages suddenly over maybe 1/8" an inch. Maybe it is fine, but it seems odd that most/all other MYs would start to engage 1/3 of the way from the floor.


As a general response to everybody. Thanks for the input and putting up with my asshattery in this thread. It sounds the shifting issue, based on pretty much every input, is likely by design and requires a change in my driving. The clutch issue seems to be split. In a few minutes, I'm going to specifically test WOT in 3rd and 4th with full boost to feel for slipping. Mazda is getting the car at 4, so I'll let you guys know the outcome with everything. Based on all your input everything is probably fine, just not going to assume and take the chance (however small it may be).

When you're starting on a hill, the best way to keep from front-ending the car behind you is to do the following:

1. Clutch in.
2. Shift into 1st gear.
3. Pull up the handbrake but keep the button pressed in.
4. Feed in the throttle and feed out the clutch until you begin to feel the car straining against the handbrake.
5. Release the handbrake (put it down), and drive away.

This is a technique that is mandatory for obtaining a driver's license in many countries, but in the US, I've NEVER seen or heard of it being taught in Driver's Ed.

Rev-matching is important because there are still transmission components that are moving at speeds that are different to the engine speed, particularly if you push the clutch in while decelerating. This means that if you try and throw the car into 2nd gear at 30mph, it's going to fight you (you'll experience "lockout") because the delta between the rotational speeds of the engine and transmission components could cause damage to the trans, engine, and motor mounts if it was allowed to engage sharply.

In essence, you want to rev-match even on that sort of downshift because it'll save your clutch, engine, motor mounts, and transmission from a lot of unnecessary wear and tear.

As this is a turbo-charged engine, there is some "lag." This is caused by the fact that turbos are exhaust-driven devices. Essentially, the turbo cannot provide boost until it has reached a relatively high RPM level, and it can't reach that sort of speed until enough volume of exhaust gas has been generated for it to be sped up. So, if you're driving at 40mph in 3rd in a relaxed state (though this is a strangely high speed for 3rd if you're just cruising around), and you suddenly go WOT, it's going to take a moment for the engine to generate the volume of exhaust gas to spin up the turbo and then for the turbo to produce boost. This will feel like a delay in hard acceleration despite the fact that the revs are rising some.


Keep in mind that I drive an MS6 and that it has 93.5k on it, but I've owned the car since it had 44k on it and my clutch engagement has always been a narrow window about 3/4 to 7/8 towards the top of the pedal's range. It hasn't changed in the entire time I've had it, and it is different than any other car I've ever driven...except...a couple of MS3s.

^^^Listen to this guy. It looks like he knows more than he's letting on ;-)

Thanks for the reply @Vansquish Gonna respond in no particular order to the things you mentioned.

I actually know the method you described for starting on a hill, just never done it. I've been cheating a bit. Right before moving I release the clutch to the engagement point, then release the foot brake and apply gas. It's not the proper way, but it works, keeps me off the clutch as long as I can manage and I don't roll back. Learning the way you described is on my to-do list. (Have to find a hill without traffic and the time to do it.)

I don't cruise at 40 in 3rd, but I've gone WOT at around 35-40 in 3rd just to do it.

All the clutch comments confuse me. A lot of owners talk about how their MS3 engages near the floor. And that is all I have ever read prior to making this thread. Now I make this thread and hear that behavior similar to mine is also apparently just as common. I could understand small variances, but this just confuses the hell out of me.

Not directly important to the discussion but I'm familiar with turbocharged cars actually. Had an MKV GTI with the DSG. Still would, except a flood decided to come on by and fuck its day up about a year ago. Not quite as powerful as the MS3, but it's certainly a very comparable experience.

Thanks for the input and clarifications. Definitely informative and helpful.

Glad to help in whatever way I/we can...

Just as a point of interest. The MKV GTI came with a K03 turbo that was smaller than that in the MS3. As a result, it had somewhat quicker spool and would've appeared less laggy.

Just had an interesting comment from a co-worker. Its possible that the difference in clutch feel is an adjustment setting. That would explain the difference in feel.

Was only able to get one pull at WOT in 3rd on the way to work. Cruised up to 35 so the turbo could reach full boost quicker and gunned it. Thought I might have felt some slippage at first, but the whole having no frame of reference thing makes the observation useless. Could have just been turbo lag. My gut says it was just turbo lag too.

It really does seem like everyone has their own way to drive stick. With my many years of experience and from just hearing cars on the road, witnessing and hearing other drivers drive stick, most drive it incorrectly- in my opinion. I have been driving stick for 37 years now and I have owned so many different cars and trucks. And with my style, I never had an issue with the tranny or shifting on any of them- including my stock 2011 MS3. I have taught my son and daughter to drive stick- and they have no issues. If I could only teach what I consider the correct method......

The MS3 does have a "fast" clutch engagement, compared to other cars. And I had to change my normal technique a little bit to adapt to it. And I did get some grind from 1st to second gear when red lining it. Changing the tranny fluid out to the Motorcraft helped eliminate that.

A few tips I can offer on the MS3- Make sure the clutch pedal is fully pushed in (disengaged) before you make a gear shift change or move the shift lever. The shifter does not like to be rushed- and most importantly- the car does not make power to the wheels unless the clutch is fully engaged and your foot is off it- you should not really be applying any throttle unless the clutch is fully engaged between shifts. In 1st gear though obviously you need to use partial throttle to get going, then foot off the clutch, fully engaged before going WOT. Do not shift in turns if possible- be engaged in the gear of choice before the turns- unless on a long sweeping turn on a track. Been driving all of my cars like this- NO issues with the trannys ever- includes Mustang GT, Chevy Beretta GTZ, multiple GTI's, Jetta GLI's, Civic SI's, WRX, Modded Miata, and now the MS3.

Kind of divergent here, but do you feel like the older cable actuated clutches on cars of yore were easier to drive? I found them to be more tactile when it came to engagement. Also, I didn’t start noticing “lockout” so much until the mid to late 90s…seems like the older trannies were more forgiving on downshifts, but maybe it was just the cars I had driven? Speaking to syncromeshed trannies only here.

For the OP, just wanted to let you know not to be bothered by all this…the MS3 isn’t exactly the easiest car to learn stick on. Not the hardest either, but the abrupt engagement can be tricky.

Thanks. Yea, I've been picking it up alright and for the most part I'm getting around as good as I could hope for given my experience. Just that engagement into second from first is a nasty bitch for me still lol

Im late to the party I see. My clutch on the speed, is by far the trickiest one I've ever had as a stock one. The engagement point on mine is very close, it catches pretty low.

As for rev matching on a downshift, best way I can explain why I do it is for a few reasons. One is so that I can save my brakes a little bit more. The other being I don't want my face to slam into the steering wheel. I'm so used to rev matching, in the speed and on the bike, it's like second nature.

my clutch is right on the groud

I would describe the clutch engagement as (with left being down to the floor, right being foot off pedal):

_______||||_

Wow, such variety in where the clutches engage on our cars. I think I mentioned it earlier, but I could understand small variations but the complete opposite ends of the spectrum is ridiculous. Aren't things like this within some sort of manufacturing margins?

Anyway, I have an update:

Mazda wasn't able to take my car as planned, one of the techs had an emergency and had to call out. Coincidentally, this is the tech they use for transmission issues. Service manager told me he could have the guy on now take a look, but said he was inexperienced and would rather leave a transmission issue to the experienced tech. It's going in Friday. Was able to speak with the service manager in detail though.

On describing the way the clutch felt, the service manager said "It could very well be fine, like you mentioned, but none of that sounds right to me." Also mentioned that there is no adjustment -like I hoped- on these clutches since they're hydraulic. He did mention that if there is a problem, there are a few things that would cause the clutch to behave the way it does. He listed them, but I'm on so little sleep right now that I can't remember, though I believe one was a slow fluid leak.

Said it didn't sound like there was a problem with downshifting, but since he was going to have the tech look at it anyway, he would have the tech take a look. Agreed it was most likely just lockout by design.

One nice thing is that he said any problems are extremely likely to be a warranty issue.

Side note: Their senior sales agent that works there, who tried to fuck with me with on prices on another car walked back to hover nearby. He was a bit perturbed that I have come in with a MS3 after he couldn't close the deal. Made me happy.

Thanks for the idea. Same general format, but "/" means clutch makes contact and "|" is where the contact allows for perceivable transfer of power.

__________///|_

In other words, if I am stopped in first. I can go all the way through the engagement point with any amount of throttle, and nothing at all would happen until the "|". If I apply no throttle and just lift off the clutch so I can idle while rolling in first, the engine speed will take a slight hit and I can feel contact, but again nothing actually happens until the "|".

I haven't looked but most clutch pedals have an adjustment that lets you adjust the free play in the pedal before disengagement.

If you want to check just stick your head under the dash and see if you see a nut to adjust the pedal back and forth.

I don't believe that you can adjust the clutch in ms3.

On both of my speeds, I've never pushed the clutch past half way to the floor..... Daily driving or not. On my 3 I had the clutch replaced (wasn't necessary, but paid for it since they were fixing my blown 2nd gear synchro) and still never had to. With our heavy ass flywheel, and if you shift properly (and quickly), you don't have to worry about pushing the clutch all the way in, or rev matching on normal shifts (upshifts).

once you get the feel for the engagement point, why would you press it to the floor? Is everyone in here a noob at manual transmissions? Maybe I got lucky cuz I learned to drive on a stick and refused to drive anything else since?

Please teach us, oh wise one.

Will do, oh dumb shit... I'm going to see if I can rig my cell phone to record my clutch pedal... BRB

Please make sure you point out which one is the clutch pedal, because im not sure.

When I first drove my 2010 speed last month I thought the clutch was terrible....in my msp it grabbed more towards the floor and in the ms3 it seems my foot almost vertical when the damn thing actually grabs. I am still working on it but I guess its just how the clutch works. I wish there was an adjustment of some kind but all reading points to none.

Video of said driving technique.

I do not have the attention span to be reading this, but good luck and hope everything works out.

Mine engages high also compared to my old BMW which was very low. Now that I have gotten used to it I like it engaging high makes it easier for flat foot shifting. Now I just have to go about 3/4 of the way to the floor when power shifting.

this is exactly what I was describing, except it feels like I only push mine half way in

Thanks, and I don't blame you. I've pretty much accepted that everything is most likely as it should be, but I'll find out for sure some time next week. I expected that this was the case, but I'd rather eliminate doubt.

Still extremely curious about why some speed owners say theirs engages near the floor though, which is what prompted all my questions regarding the clutch. I have yet to see a reason why this would be the case.