Cheapness is setting in
 

So I've been thinking about octane lately. On my K04, modest boost, modest timing, and 50/50 E85 I have a feeling I have more than enough effective octane for the power levels I am making at the moment. So at this point is 93 really necessary? Seeing how much corn helps people in 91 octane states, and after encouragement from @Bucker;, I decided to test 87 in my E mix instead of 93. I've run a half tank through so far and things are looking great. No loss in power, no knock, no misfires. Everything looks identical on 87 as it did on 93. I'm happy so far, and with this E40 mix being a $5-6/tank savings, that is just an even bigger bonus.

VD comparison, 87 octane in red: MediaFire - Online Space for your documents, photos, videos, and music.

87 octane log: http://www.mediafire.com/view/?l9b5bmbizf23rk8

93 octane log: datalog56WOTe40rev13.csv

Nice! very interested in where this goes, keep logging.

subbing

I seriously doubt you'll EVER see knock on 50/50, even if using Mexico gas.
3 gal mix on winter blend I'm not so sure about, but it probably won't be that bad.

I run a 50/50 mix of 87/e85. Why would you do anything else? its still an effective octane rating of 123. If that isn't good enough nothing ever will be

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ive been debating doing this. i think i'll start off slow with 10 gal 89/ 5 gal E85

You haz 15 gallon tank? I kid I kid.

uhh. ok.

I just put in 5 of e85, fill up the rest with 93 :\

On to second tank, added 2* more timing across the board, still no knock. Gonna drop another degree on and check again tomorrow. Running 14.5* above OTS stage 2 timing, so 20.5* @ 6500 rpm. I'll attach the log, and for good measure I figured I'd post my actual map if anyone is curious.

Log: datalog2WOTe40w87rev15.csv
Map: http://www.mediafire.com/?ad7beniymle250g

I'd be careful with the timing. You can easily go fast MBT with e85 and never get knock. Unless your on a dyno your playing with zzb. If you bread through @phate; experience with his speed3 and dialing in timing on the dyno the risk vs benefit is quiet questionable at high timing. Yes running higher timing than pumping gas FTW but the difference between say 16 or 17* and 21-22* is not as much 9-10* and 16-17*. The power benefit isn't linear.

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ok, so i tried this out yesterday, car hates it. Now i have a full tank i need to get rid of somehow.

daily putt-putting is OK, but as soon as I try to give it a hard romp -- pulls back hard and knocks like a bitch.

Yeah, I made sure to only give a few gallons a try at first, I didn't go a full tank until I'd driven around on it for a while. How much of an E mix are you using, and what kind of E blends do they run in your area?

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.

THIS MUCH E85 DOES NOT KNOCK IN OUR CARS, YOU CANNOT TUNE BY THE KNOCK SENSOR.

Seriously, 13° @ 3k rpm with almost 20psi......15.5° @ 4k......18° @ 5k.....I would guess you could be upwards of 5° beyond MBT in some places.

Even on full E85 I've never needed to run that much timing to reach MBT.

Check this for general guidelines on timing. http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...tabase-100743/

I have another map to check tonight that is 1* higher than the one posted, to compare power output, because I know that I am about maxed out in timing across the curve. I know there are spots where the actual curve isn't dialed in yet seeing as this is an evenly-advanced OTS curve, i.e. I have been advancing the WOT regions of the OTS curve and then interpolating down for tip-in timing. I did this to preserve the smoother timing ramp through the RPM range. But once I have dialed in approximate peak, I should be able to rent some dyno time to finely tune it to be sure. I think I've stated this before, this is still a working tune seeing as I've been tuning myself.

Holly fuck bro thats way too much timing! You gonna zzb

In B4 Partout from blown motor

THIS man, this.

Ummmm....are you not listening to what's being said to you? Lol


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I call dibs on engine mounts...

Lol this thread is funny.

@Darth_Nuruodo; stick with e-tunes.

Nuh nuh nuh... they go into my car. In the event of any large damage, that thing gets flung back at the stealership under the story of "i dunno what happened. i was just driving down the road and then it slowed to a stop and there was brown stuff everywhere"

That being said.. :popcorn:

Darth-tarded? @Haltech;


Sent from the depths

Add another gallon of E85 when you can. It should help.

Yikes at 13* at 3k RPM and 18* at 5k RPM. You're most likely losing power at this point.

I noticed a slight dip in early torque last night, not much but somewhat noticeable and a slightly faster drop at the top. Like I said, I bumped it one more degree and will check this evening. I'm not saying that I haven't passed peak timing with that last revision, as up until now I was still gaining power. If this revision shows the same slight drop then I'll know where I stand and can start dialing it back in spots to get it right.

You are a fucking idiot

@Familyguy427; has experience with self tune e85 looking for gas milage...

Maybe he can post pics of his blown motor.

tapafuck

1* of timing at these levels can equate to as little as 1-2hp (or 0hp right around MBT). Back to back runs in virtual Dyno show more variance than that. It is NOT a tool to fine tune timing, plain and simple.

this is what I told him. @p057;

@Darth_Nuruodo; are you not fucking understanding?

You're not on a dyno doing the testing. Using VD numbers for something so precise is worse than retarded.

dude is trolling you guys. wake up.:popworm:

So, fuel-wise the 87 is still working great, no issues at all with the way it is running.

And for those that were commenting on my timing curve, I've adjusted it a good bit and brought the low-end timing down by a lot. Gonna flash after work and we'll see how this does this evening.

New curve:
Changed to NGK step colders, here's what my stockers looked like @28k if anyone was curious: http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...ml#post2064175

Still seems pretty aggressive for a street tune. I don't think even phate at max timing was pushing 23.5*

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Well initial logs show a 10hp drop and 20 lbft peak torque, as much as 40 lbft loss in low end torque. Don't care how inaccurate you say vd is it can show that much difference. Off to do more testing after dinner.

Tapa who tapa wha??

Alright, looks like it ended up like a 20/40 loss in hp and torque, that's pretty extreme...

VD comparo: http://www.mediafire.com/?7h4g6gedyqojocy
New log: http://www.mediafire.com/?xq1x7on8ud1zue3
New map: http://www.mediafire.com/?45vyohffto7hlfx
@phate; was I just this far off in how I changed my timing curve to match up with the ones in that DB, or is this just like "the best I should hope for "safely"?"

I was running Lean during CL cruising. 17.0 from 2500-3500 then interpolated to stoichiometric. In WOT I was running 11.8 AFRs which is normal. I got around 240ish MPT. Now with new motor, same 33% blend which I think is a 5 gallon mix, I just got 168 MPT today. FUCK ME RUNNING

I was also debating on switching to 87/E85 yet the octane isn't there for what I want. Remember, E85 is really just about 108ish octane so when you cut that with lower shit, its like cutting cocaine with baby powder! And FUCK baby powder! It still has the cooling effect and knock resistance, but the High ain't there, Just like your VD numbers show @Darth_Nuruodo; She feels fine but when you put her to the test, she flunks!

This picture is of piston #3 and #4 . No running super Lean for DD any more! (maybe 15.5 Lol

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...3&l=3d6767635b

:popcorn:

Try this timing curve out

The power drop I'm discussing here is unrelated to the fueling change, this came from a tune change after the fact. If you look in the first couple posts you can see that even VD showed no change between the fuels on the same tune. I'm sorry for the confusion there, this thread has definitely changed from the original intention, from a chronicle of my experience with fuel to my crucifixion over timing lol. Once my tune is back stable again I'll hopefully get back to showing more evidence one way or the other how this fueling setup is working.

Now as for my tune, in addition to raising boost to make up for the lost timing, this is the timing curve and map I'm gonna test after work:
starting at 3k: 4 -- 7 -- 10 -- 13 -- 16 -- 18 -- 19 -- 20 -- 20.5
map: MediaFire - Online Space for your documents, photos, videos, and music.

lol

CAS was probably mis-aligned.

And that's why my car was eating up the high timing? lol Who knows, I'm hoping this new map gets me some of the lost HP back up, I've given up on keeping my torque at this point.

22 degrees at 6k rpm on 50/50 mix was past MBT on my car; the felt difference between 21 and 22 was immediate and considerable.

That said, you were running 13+ at 3000, which I'm pretty sure would window the block in my car, on any fuel.

Interesting, subbing for more results!:buttkick:

:pat:

I don't know, maybe mine is off, since I was running 11+ at 3k for more than 4k miles, and at least 20 trips down the quarter. Could be I was still too slow to vl blow.... :(

Tapa who tapa wha??

isn't everyone telling you that you are running way too aggressive of timing?

The money you are saving by running 87 with e85 over 93 with e85 will be irrelevant compared to the cost to fix a vented block.

Tl; dr'd half the thread huh? I cut the timing down already. And the savings doesn't come into play anyway, since I would have been told the timing was too high even on 100%

Tapa who tapa wha??

I've been running 16.5afr for almost 2 years now.

if you werent hitting boost that early, that probably saved you

no i read it. just sounded like you were still running too aggressive of timing