Pump/internals were spot less..... Just the spill valve took a shit.

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...psoszdcyyt.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...psdgnydtn7.jpg


Pump is clean, not one sign of Black Death

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...pskhypsqkp.jpg

But sticky death everywhere, right?

I put the spill valve itself in a cup of s-1, submerged the entire internal assembly and then pour s-1 into all accessible areas of the hpfp. I also exercised the internals a bunch of times while submerged. All done after initial cleaning. If it was possible for fluid to get there, there's s-1 there. As to how much in the spill valve housing, no idea i didn't measure. Halfway filled it or so.

I also cranked it over for a few seconds on initial startup but haven't since.

No..... Housing was clean and lubed still by the s-1 shit so it wasn't sticky.


The spill valve was a lil sticky tho. Idk if I had s-1 in the spill valve.

Swap to the RP Dexxos oil and see if you can last longer.

Edit:
When you put the pump back on, remove the spill valve and fill the pump up to the first thread, then put the spill valve back on. Should last longer.

I just changed oil and I'm running brad penn oil for added zinc etc for my built motor. It's legit green oil lol.... Okay, I'll fill the spill valve up right now before starting.

Just hit the 1k mark last night. At 1,040 or so now. No issues. You can faintly see my 999 mile mark in the potato pic.



http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1415100273







Only reason I can think of for the success is this...







http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1415102875

Still going strong on original pump rebuild with S1 at 1,200+ miles on the RP. Was gonna pull the pump today and clean and redo it for peace of mind but meh, too lazy. Ordered JBR 3in WP from FS section instead. ($150!?) Also plan on gutting the TP either today or tomorrow so full E85 rape should be realized shortly. Enough of this SRI only garbage.

Got under the car to nator p'tator my TP, took one look at the state of the spring bolts and nuts and rolled back out from under that bitch. Gonna buy an ebay tp soon-ish. That being said, got this in the mail and installed today. Should see what the corn' s all about now that my hackjob sri is gone.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1415658539




Also, at 1,400 miles on original pump rebuild. Still chuggin. @Enki; Any updates on your tester?

No smoking or anything; only issue is his car drinks like it's Irish (heavy on the wallet).

Question, did anyone ever try RP without the additive? If not, I might be down to give it a shot after my next oil change.

Using bad grammar from my cell phone.

@ASHMS3;
Yup... Gave me sticky death. Not enough to immobilize me but to cause flow problems.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Same. By far the longest I've been on the sauce issue free though, so I've got rather high expectations for RP+Redline.

hey if you guys don't mind, I would like to take a slight detour here and ask a question...since all the E85/CDFP experts are present.

I recently started dropping fuel pressure and getting the associated sputtering. This occurs with higher load values and/or when approaching 3.5-4K RPMs, light load. It is accompanied with a chatter/chirp sound that is either coming from the CDFP or the RV. Pressure will actually reach zero then bounce back to 1500-1700ish then back down.

I used to run a 4/8 mix of E but recently (4 tank fulls now) switched to a 5/7 mix. I don't recall the sticky death issue being recorded at this concentration. I happen to have two HP CDFPs so today I switched out the spill valve to no avail.

My question is, does this sound more like the CDFP internals or the RV giving out? I do have a 2150 that I can swap in to rule out the 4K light load sound/sputter ( but at high loads fuel cut ensues) and am leaning toward the RV since I don't recall sticky death occurring with E concentrations below 50% and not sure the SV can drop pressure to below ITFP. I can also swap out the entire CDFP.

thoughts?

IIRC @Enki; or someone said that the worst death they had seen was on a pump from a cx-7 that had never seen E.

When my RV went I had low 300's (psi) at idle and could build it with slow gradual increases in throttle but if I punched it pressure would fall on its face.

If you have an Oreilly near you get a bottle of Redline S-1 and fill your SV up with it. Restart and let it run for a little bit then try again. If its death somewhere in the hpfp the s-1 should clean it up at least temporarily.

hum...I have no problem building pressure at light loads and below 3.5K.

edit: with gradual pedal so maybe the same as you.

Hmmm RPM goes backwards in a couple lines....isn't that a blowout thing?

WTF.... 0psi 6 psi.. would the itfp cutting cause this? I was under the impression, as you were that when sv and hpfp failures occur you always get the 60psi of itfp.

Its more or less what mine did when my RV was failing...you have a V3 so maybe the speed of it is simply catching those low pressures whereas my old v2 was not at the time.
@phate; @Enki; @littleloogy;

nvrmnd...nothing to see here...move along...lol

this is my fucking little fuel pressure sending unit harness issue rearing its ugly head again.

fawk!!!!

LSS if I unplug the harness and plug it back in everything is back to gold Jerry. This is a 2 YO issue and happens when the weather turns cooler...anyway I need to figure this out once and for all. I guess the FP sensor is talking gibberish to the ECU and the ECU is working the piss out of the SV which leads to the chirping noise.

sorry for the derail.

No worries, I was gonna say it seemed electrical with those readings because 0psi should result in way more than a stutter I would think, but then you having the V3 threw me off because its supposedly so much faster. Glad you got it sorted.

yeah the 0 psi from the sending unit is what was freaking out the ECU so it cuts fuel via the SV...same as an over psi reading which a 2150 RV will give you ...lol

I have spread out the female pin receivers in that harness, but dielectric grease in there...I need to find and injector harness and replace the entire thing I guess. The sending unit has already been replaced as a troubleshooting step.

lol the saga started back in 10 of 2011

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...ml#post1068072

Yep I had the 2150 as my replacement for.....2 weeks...

Abandoned that fucker and sourced a stock one. I couldn't even look at the throttle with the 2150 and not get cut. Psi set to like 1200 on the map, No thanks heh.

We need one that goes to like 1950 or something...or whatever will get us the highest pressure without cut.

I have 2050, I see 2074 all the time in logs but never had a cut and never had to target lower fuel pressure.

I get cut all the time on my 2050 when the rev limit kicks in or in high rpm low throttle; fuel pressure map attached.

@Realgib3; isn't that special. Lol. You may be the exception not the rule.

Tappin

2150 rv no bueno. I traded it back to John for a 1975 rv

Actually I might be wrong. I might have a step higher one; I don't remember.
I should look to see if I can find a different source for these though, I don't particularly care for the current vendor.

Still wish we could just get the upgraded sensor from somewhere

it would appear my thread derail continues...lol

I do seem to remember the consensus was 2050 ok 2150 bad...which my luck would have it, was determined AFTER I got my 2150...it currently sits in one if my bolt bins. I suspect the sensor limit is 2200 and thus triggers a fuel cut from the ECU...or the limit is in the ECU...alas we may never know.

My logs show fuel cut happening at 2074. I might have a 2100 valve.

welp, I guess I had two problems...FP is still randomly dropping, but only into the triple digits now.

I'll swap pumps out tomorrow.

1 step forward 2 steps back...its time for a change.

Did changing your pump fix the problem? I was running into something similar before I switched to full E. Running a 50/50 mix my fuel pressure would drop out similar to yours. What was happening in my case was my pump slowly developed a light coat of sticky death in my SV and internals resulting in an inconsistent synchronization between the internals and SV.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

if only there were a simple answer...but I guess "no" would be it.

I swapped out my pump with my spare CPE pump BUT used the same SV. I had already swapped just the SV previously so I didn't see that the SV would make any differences. Also the collar on the other one came from somewhere up northwest (PTP pump) I am suspecting so it looked like hell and at the time I didn't want to take the SV out of the collar and swap em.

So that didn't make a difference, but I think my issue is/was really electrical.

So my next steps were to put the other SV in. I didn't take either apart, need to look back at this thread or another to see if/how to fully take the SV apart, I just swapped collars. At the same time I unplugged my injector harness to pressure sensor, the other two connectors in front of the CDFP and cleaned them all, spread out the pin receivers and re-applied dialectic grease on just the injector-to-sensor plug (this has been my randomly problematic plug over the past 3 years). over the past month I have also had breakup issues and unplugging the top harness connectors and ECU connectors resolved it so right now there are too many variables to rule out anything conclusively.

after those steps the car appears to be back to normal. I have not done a full pull yet as its raining here but a partial pull was successful last night.

so, I think I am having at least 2 different issues.

Top harness plugs or ECU connectors/wires - symptom is breakup but no logged drop in FP.

FP sensor harness plug/wires - symptom is breakup but drastic drops in FP as seen in the logs I have attached.

Pump issue due to E85 ( possible but no conclusive evidence yet)

If this occurs again I am going to either get a new or used injector harness. The issue could also be a weak/broken wire somewhere that gets manipulated when messing with the connectors.

there, you now have the long story.

edit: now that I look back at the hardware mod thread I see there really isn't anything to clean inside the valve itself. The cavity has always looked spotless. so I am more convinced my issue is fully electrical.

Called integrated engineering. Extremely nice compared to APR. Talked to a guy named Daniel. He was curious as he has never heard of the MZR, so naturally gave him a history lesson. He said they have no experience with E85, since they are located in SL,UT. Dan placed me on hold to talk with their engineering department about my request. The engineer said that it will run E85 fuel without problems, as long as we remove the fuel from the pump after each run. Duh...

Sounds to me like there is yet another wall. And I don't have 500 bucks to throw away at the moment. I am currently working on creating an additional seal inside the pump. I'm glad my shop is finally cool again where I can happily work.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

time for a NOS purge valve on shutdown mod. install a spark plug at the end and the dragon rears it head one last time at every shutdown :)

Great idea! Why don't you give it a try and report back, lol

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Heh, that would be something wouldn't it? Currently at 1,800 miles with no sticking issues.

As soon as my rear diff gets here tomorrow I'll swap and continue my full e with vr1 oil and Lucas oil safeguard ethanol fuel conditioner in the pump.....one thing tho.....I live in Wisconsin and it's been 15* the last few days and I'm still running a d10 meth yet, why because I can.....lol.....so the long starts and cold temps might play into issues I may or maynot have.

Sent from my HTC One X+ using Tapatalk

Absolutely, because I need more problems. Lol.

P.s. if my harness gives me more trouble I just may do it.

Tappin

You should just get rid of the HPFP and pressurize the fuel tank with nitrous to 2k psi. No more pump issues.

Yeah, that's will work. I'll just use my empty Argon tank from my mig welder as a fuel tank. http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...57408006c5.jpg

Fun fact that I just figured out... Running petrol makes my fuel pump loud when I lightly touch the throttle. When i switched back to E pump noise vanished. Wonder why that is... Viscosity?

Edit: I also rebuilt the pump with SI-1 while I was on gas. Ran it this way for 500 miles then switched back to E without touching the pump. Let's see what happens.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Probably flow related actually. You're using a lot more of that piston stroke to supply fuel on full corn.

Easy.......pump is pissed off your running horse piss through it when its used to sweet, sweet corn goodness.

So, I have a question... I'm willing to jump into the fray here... As I understand it, there are several threads on the issues surrounding corn. Many thanks to @Enki; and @littleloogy; for the rebellious attitudes and inquisitive nature's that have led us this far. I will continue to puff peters and blow smoke up bungs once I ask... Are there any oils you would like tested that have not been tried yet?
Looking across the multiple threads, I don't see anyone actively tracking this, so @littleloogy; @Enki; requests? Down to start at beginning of year.

tapped while fapping to pics of Laguna Seca...

@Enki; is have you read this? http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...d.php?t=122082

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

There's a separate thread on oil, but I think we probably need a new one, or at least to redo the op in the original.

As for which oil, I think the best bet is to pick one that says "dexxos" on it somewhere and try that.

Oh crap... Newbs gon newb......... http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...35369cb18b.jpg okay... Let me get to reading again, and if I don't see it, I'll ask.

tapped while fapping to pics of Laguna Seca...

I have got off track with the oil testing when I started with additives. RP works better then the others I have tried, so I stuck with it. I have been wanting to try something bio based http://www.getg.com/G-OIL_motor_oils.php

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

@littleloogy; you want I should try the G1 stuff? Or is that my ego telling me that you were thinking of the race blend lol

tapped while fapping to pics of Laguna Seca...

Bio full synthetic falls under the appropriate SN category by the american petroleum institute or API that is listed in our owners manual. I would start there.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Somewhere around 2.5k miles.
RP dexxos
Redline S-1 for pump rebuild
0 issues
Many boners.

Local test car just went out. 2 tanks, lots of sitting (probably not the best thing for the car). Still on T6, but will be switching to RP next oil change.

I switched back to E from gas and I started having sticking internals withing the first week. I had to keep injecting additive every night after my commute to keep my pump operational for the next morning. Today I finally found some time to work on the pump. I rebuilt it with the additive inside the retaining nut just like before.

In case anyone is wondering about prolonged use of E, I checked my records. I was on full e85 for over 16,000 consecutive miles. I did not have any problems with my fuel system besides the known problem of the fuel level sender taking a shit.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Would you just get that guy to switch to the purple already. $$ for oil change< having to screw with pump every other tank of E

Starting to sound like SL-1 lubricated pump rebuild+Dexos-spec Oil= Multiple OCI on full E before maintainance required.

Lubed up the pump/internals with SI-1 and threw in RP dexos yesterday. Heading to fill up full e85 after work today, and then the fun will begin.

Say farewell to third gear traction. if you had any remaining.

Keep in mind you might still encounter issues after first switching to RP; it may take another oil change to stabilize the pump due to remnants of the old oil.

You may also immediately have no issues. Hard to tell.

This is true. I am experiencing issues trying to convert back. Two oil changes ago I accidentally put in regular royal purple instead of dexos. Since then my spill valve and internals has been getting really sticky. I hope it goes away after my next oil change/pump rebuild.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Thanks for the info, good to know. Other than the obvious fuel pressure dipping and bogging, anything else to look out for? Got SI-1 and a 32mm wrench in the car with me to be able to get to the spill valve in case things go south.

Amazingly when cleaning the fuel pump, it wasn't very dirty at all. Honestly, when I first installed the internals last year, I didn't clean it. When I pulled it yesterday, it was almost spotless, I was surprised.

So then there is a difference between the Dexos branded one and the non. I can't even find the Dexos branded bottle pictured on the RP website; do you know which one you picked up that was the wrong one?


What oil you running? What mix of corn?

I was running a 42.5 mix with rotella. Will now be going 100% e85 with royal purple dexos 5w-30.

I also bought the car used with 37,xxx on it. Now have 54,800

So you were running 50/50 then; there shouldn't be any issues with that in the short to medium terms.

I bought the 5 quart jug from Kagen Orily's. It said on the front high performance oil, but did not mention anything about meeting gm dexos spec. I did not notice until I did my recent oil change where I saw the different bottle on my self. I am sure I threw it away, but I'll check when I get home.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

I did notice while looking online, a lot of the pictures did not have the "dexos-1" label on the front. But when I went to wal-mart, every bottle I saw there had it.

This is the jug i picked up from wal-mart along with another quart of it.
http://s21.postimg.org/5bcpv0ddz/IMG...216_154932.jpg
http://s21.postimg.org/gb2z3qa4n/IMG...216_154943.jpg

Don't mistaken it for grape sofa, it does not taste very good.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

I have two of those jugs, because they didn't have individual quarts. Also because oil leak/consumption.

This is the one you want, note the symbol to the right of the volume of the container.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1418768210

damn, mine doesn't have the purple unicorn... ZZB imminent...

After i take possession of my booze burning car, I'm going to start experimenting with different dexos-spec oils. Namely mobil 1, castrol edge, and PPU.

So, filled up yesterday, everything is running fine, except at WOT. Fuel pressure is having little bit of a hard time, in the early RPM's after going WOT staying above 1600. I see a few (5-6) cells in logs that are 1550+, quite a few in the 1600 range. I'm going to guess that's probably from what @enki; said, remnants from the rotella in there giving it a hard time?

Log attached, need to change up a few things in the tune. I'll probably wait until the next oil change to really get on it, maybe, I don't feel like blowing or bending anything...

Nope, just your fp having to work harder to pump full E IMO. Mine did the same thing after going from 50/50 to full. Bumped pressure up in ATR by 100 or so in the weak spots, problem solved.

OK soooo I'm not sure if I missed something here... So if I'm running E85 (a 40% mix) I should be running dexos approved oil?

I was running rotella running both a 33% mix and 42.5% mix, never had any problems. Fuel pump was still very clean also when I took it out to clean it, extremely minor buildup.

I did sort of the same, having it command 1800 instead of 1749. I swear I remember reading on here somewhere to bump it to 1800 on e85, but leave it at 1749 on pump. Made some other revisions also, can't wait to get out of work and go drive some more, hoping to get 200 miles out of a tank at least.

I've been just ghosting this thread for the most part, and haven't really paid any attention to Dexos anything till last week when I started thinking about giving RP a try at my next oil change. I just can't run more than an e30 blend without running out of IDC when it's cold, and that's enough for me to see all I'm comfortable putting down on a stock bottom end. Now that this Dexos business has peaked my interest tho I've started doing some reading up.


Would somebody be kind enough to point out the approximate post count range of this thread when it was defined just what it is about Dexos makes it work magic for 100% e85? As compared to, say, GF-5 synthetics? I'd rather go read up on the conversation that already happened than ask people to rehash an old topic.

Based on reading I've done this morning Dexos is sort of different, I just haven't seen a detailed enough spec to define why, or what it is that's different from GF-5 to make it do what it does for our needs. For example, Thom Smith, a vice-president with Valvoline, stated that GM created the dexos specification by "taking some of the requirements of API, some of the requirements for ACEA and some engine tests on their own, and put together a specification of their own. It does take some additional chemistry to pass all those tests as compared to the basic ILSAC GF-5 type products. There are also some different physical requirements that are more stringent than API."

That was early on when Valvoline was fighting against having to pay ~$0.35 per qt for the Dexos license. Since then they've pretty much gone all in on the Dexos train, along with other holdouts like Castrol.

The current full list of Dexos 1 certified oils-
dexos1 Brands | GM


In the end, if not all Dexos oils work for the 100% e85 sticky/black death issues, wouldn't that mean it's not Dexos standards doing the magic, but rather something specific to the blends of a specific manufacturer?

Looking at my recent logs, I notice after 5krpm i'm hitting 100-104 IDC. This is with 50*-55* "winter weather" here in Florida.

I'll admit, I have no idea when it comes to specifications and things of that nature of oil and all that. I just read through everything that almost everyone was having great results with RP that has the Dexos1 label on it, so I decided to go with that.

I do have a BlackStone Labs UOA kit at home. Either the next oil change, or the one after I'll be filling it up and sending it off to get some results.

I would agree that its not the dexos licence. There was something that royal purple did that made it much more compatible with E85, they even claim it as such. As far as why, I don't believe that was discussed.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

We don't know. IIRC, it was my suggestion that we try a Dexos oil because they are more hardened against the pitfalls of running ethanol fuels; it just so happened that the first (and only) Dexos oil I tried (because it was the ONLY one available where I live) had a dramatic improvement.

You are more than welcome to test other oils and let everyone know what you find, but be warned that you may need to run more than one oil change of an oil to see any impact, depending on just how adverse the affects of the prior oil were.

As for me, I've had my heart broken in the past testing full corn and I only need to change my oil twice a year at most so I'm just going to stick with what I know works.

@Enki; how much time/mileage between changes? Twice a year? Awesome, but that sounds like not daily driven.

I have mine tapering down as rpm increases both for pump and on E.

The 1749 number is more or less to keep you below the 1850 psi crack limit of the RV. I had 1900-2000 psi all day everyday on my speed 6 targeting 1850 across the board...for about a month til my rv shit the bed. Now I tweak the tables to keep pressure in the 1700's with as few blips above 1800 as possible.

I did have to bump it over by 50-100 psi in spots after the switch to full E

Thanks for the info, I actually kind of took Enki's FP table he posted, and sort of mimicked that to a degree. Now it will just be a lot of driving, logging, and making appropriate changes.

I must admit it was nice filling up at one station, and it only costing $31 for 14 gallons.

Last oil change was 2014-5-5, and I'm a little over 5500 miles in. It's the only running vehicle I own, so it is my daily, but no I don't drive every day. Working from home ftw.

My oci is every 3000 or 3 months.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

I have a 2100 PRV; this table actually gets me fuel cut due to overpressure before I can even hit rev limit. I'm working on turning up the load up top to help with this, but the Autotechs make retarded pressure. Rail pressure stays above 1800 PSI pretty much the whole time, btw.

I kind of have to wonder if it isn't related to three lobes not lining up with injection events and a commanded DC % with overshoot to ensure proper fueling for when the injection event does come.

Wonder if someone can look into this with a scope or something; log DC% of spill valve along with voltage from rail sensor.

Enki, I went lower commanded pressures than that with the 2100 valve...nothing made it not cut. Even John at PTP couldn't make it "not cut" He sent me several maps a couple years ago trying...to no avail.

One of my older maps on the AP was doing well, then I went and fucked with it and it stopped behaving. I'm still trying to source a new PRV in the 2000 PSI range that's not from him, but it's proving difficult.

Good luck man. I ended up getting him to make me a valve with a 1975 cracking pressure and after I modified the fuel maps, it has been good to go. I've been running it like 2 years.

Could the raised fuel pressure be affecting the way the spill valve operates? I have noticed as you guys are playing around with higher pressure, you seem to have less and less control.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Higher pressure? More like runaway pressure. Compare my posted pressure map above to your stock one.

Basically, the PRV is forcing higher pressure, which the spill valve ultimately controls. Stock PRVs are venting anything over 18x psi, but it's still climbing due to flow limits.

I'm betting this isn't a tuning issue, but a stock ecu logic issue. Going to make a request in the VT feature request thread for spill valve duty cycle to see if this is the case.

Ultimately, our problem is the fuel rail sensor. If we had a sensor that could read to 2500psi, we would be golden...unfortunately 2074 is all we get.

We can get another sensor that will read that high, but I don't think we have a way to change the parameters like we do with the MAP sensor.

6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other.

Same exact thing for me. He sent me 3 or 4 revisions but when the last one commanded something like 900 psi at 6500rpm I had him refund me. He actually did ask me if I wanted a 1950 valve sent but I said no and sourced a stocker. He was helpful for the most part but kept trying to convince me that it was a tune issue and not a hardware issue lol

Yep, he tried to convince me it was a tune issue as well lol. It isn't...at least as far as what we are able to do with ATR. Thankfully, he swapped mine out so I didn't have to pay twice.

So car sat outside last night in the Florida "cold", had a tiny bit of trouble starting up. Nothing major at all, and once it started up, it was fine the whole drive to work.

Looking like I might actually be able to get 200+ miles out of the tank.

Did it stumble and fake death for a second or did it just take longer to crank? I've had a few longer cranking episodes on sub 20* mornings but AFAIK that's a given with E. Had em on 50/50 sometimes too when it was that cold.

In my experience, it takes a couple tries to get it started. VersaTune, however, has tables that should specifically take care of that by allowing temperature based enrichment, so if I ever go back to full E, I should get one crank starts every time, much like what can be achieved on PI cars.

To make the car not start like shit on full corn Turn on ignition on, monitor actual FP, hold the gas and clutch down to the floor, crank engine, as the fuel pressure begins to climb release the throttle. You will get a nice crisp start.

After a while you will get a "feel" for how it builds pressure, you won't need to monitor pressure as startup.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

It sort of half stumbles (maybe) & takes 1-2 more cranks, it really isn't major at all, at least that's what I feel. Along with the VTCS delete, the first 20 seconds of a cold start make it seem like my car is dying lol.

Does this work when there's snow on the ground too?