E-85 Cure With Fuel Additives

[g00s3y]

Originally Posted by Enki Keep in mind you might still encounter issues after first switching to RP; it may take another oil change to stabilize the pump due to remnants of the old oil. You may also immediately have no issues. Hard to tell.

Thanks for the info, good to know. Other than the obvious fuel pressure dipping and bogging, anything else to look out for? Got SI-1 and a 32mm wrench in the car with me to be able to get to the spill valve in case things go south.

Amazingly when cleaning the fuel pump, it wasn't very dirty at all. Honestly, when I first installed the internals last year, I didn't clean it. When I pulled it yesterday, it was almost spotless, I was surprised.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by littleloogy This is true. I am experiencing issues trying to convert back. Two oil changes ago I accidentally put in regular royal purple instead of dexos. Since then my spill valve and internals has been getting really sticky. I hope it goes away after my next oil change/pump rebuild. Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

So then there is a difference between the Dexos branded one and the non. I can't even find the Dexos branded bottle pictured on the RP website; do you know which one you picked up that was the wrong one?

Originally Posted by g00s3y Thanks for the info, good to know. Other than the obvious fuel pressure dipping and bogging, anything else to look out for? Got SI-1 and a 32mm wrench in the car with me to be able to get to the spill valve in case things go south. Amazingly when cleaning the fuel pump, it wasn't very dirty at all. Honestly, when I first installed the internals last year, I didn't clean it. When I pulled it yesterday, it was almost spotless, I was surprised.

What oil you running? What mix of corn?

[g00s3y]

Originally Posted by Enki So then there is a difference between the Dexos branded one and the non. I can't even find the Dexos branded bottle pictured on the RP website; do you know which one you picked up that was the wrong one?]

I was running a 42.5 mix with rotella. Will now be going 100% e85 with royal purple dexos 5w-30.

I also bought the car used with 37,xxx on it. Now have 54,800

[Enki]

So you were running 50/50 then; there shouldn't be any issues with that in the short to medium terms.

[littleloogy]

I bought the 5 quart jug from Kagen Orily's. It said on the front high performance oil, but did not mention anything about meeting gm dexos spec. I did not notice until I did my recent oil change where I saw the different bottle on my self. I am sure I threw it away, but I'll check when I get home.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

[g00s3y]

I did notice while looking online, a lot of the pictures did not have the "dexos-1" label on the front. But when I went to wal-mart, every bottle I saw there had it.

This is the jug i picked up from wal-mart along with another quart of it.

[littleloogy]

Don't mistaken it for grape sofa, it does not taste very good.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

[Enki]

I have two of those jugs, because they didn't have individual quarts. Also because oil leak/consumption.

[MSP6]

This is the one you want, note the symbol to the right of the volume of the container.

[g00s3y]

damn, mine doesn't have the purple unicorn... ZZB imminent...

[SteelJM1]

After i take possession of my booze burning car, I'm going to start experimenting with different dexos-spec oils. Namely mobil 1, castrol edge, and PPU.

[g00s3y]

So, filled up yesterday, everything is running fine, except at WOT. Fuel pressure is having little bit of a hard time, in the early RPM's after going WOT staying above 1600. I see a few (5-6) cells in logs that are 1550+, quite a few in the 1600 range. I'm going to guess that's probably from what @enki; said, remnants from the rotella in there giving it a hard time?

Log attached, need to change up a few things in the tune. I'll probably wait until the next oil change to really get on it, maybe, I don't feel like blowing or bending anything...

[MSP6]

Nope, just your fp having to work harder to pump full E IMO. Mine did the same thing after going from 50/50 to full. Bumped pressure up in ATR by 100 or so in the weak spots, problem solved.

[tbcota25]

OK soooo I'm not sure if I missed something here... So if I'm running E85 (a 40% mix) I should be running dexos approved oil?

[g00s3y]

Originally Posted by tbcota25 OK soooo I'm not sure if I missed something here... So if I'm running E85 (a 40% mix) I should be running dexos approved oil?

I was running rotella running both a 33% mix and 42.5% mix, never had any problems. Fuel pump was still very clean also when I took it out to clean it, extremely minor buildup.

Originally Posted by MSP6 Nope, just your fp having to work harder to pump full E IMO. Mine did the same thing after going from 50/50 to full. Bumped pressure up in ATR by 100 or so in the weak spots, problem solved.

I did sort of the same, having it command 1800 instead of 1749. I swear I remember reading on here somewhere to bump it to 1800 on e85, but leave it at 1749 on pump. Made some other revisions also, can't wait to get out of work and go drive some more, hoping to get 200 miles out of a tank at least.

[TiGraySpeed6]

I've been just ghosting this thread for the most part, and haven't really paid any attention to Dexos anything till last week when I started thinking about giving RP a try at my next oil change. I just can't run more than an e30 blend without running out of IDC when it's cold, and that's enough for me to see all I'm comfortable putting down on a stock bottom end. Now that this Dexos business has peaked my interest tho I've started doing some reading up.


Would somebody be kind enough to point out the approximate post count range of this thread when it was defined just what it is about Dexos makes it work magic for 100% e85? As compared to, say, GF-5 synthetics? I'd rather go read up on the conversation that already happened than ask people to rehash an old topic.

Based on reading I've done this morning Dexos is sort of different, I just haven't seen a detailed enough spec to define why, or what it is that's different from GF-5 to make it do what it does for our needs. For example, Thom Smith, a vice-president with Valvoline, stated that GM created the dexos specification by "taking some of the requirements of API, some of the requirements for ACEA and some engine tests on their own, and put together a specification of their own. It does take some additional chemistry to pass all those tests as compared to the basic ILSAC GF-5 type products. There are also some different physical requirements that are more stringent than API."

That was early on when Valvoline was fighting against having to pay ~$0.35 per qt for the Dexos license. Since then they've pretty much gone all in on the Dexos train, along with other holdouts like Castrol.

The current full list of Dexos 1 certified oils-
dexos1 Brands | GM


In the end, if not all Dexos oils work for the 100% e85 sticky/black death issues, wouldn't that mean it's not Dexos standards doing the magic, but rather something specific to the blends of a specific manufacturer?

[g00s3y]

Looking at my recent logs, I notice after 5krpm i'm hitting 100-104 IDC. This is with 50*-55* "winter weather" here in Florida.

I'll admit, I have no idea when it comes to specifications and things of that nature of oil and all that. I just read through everything that almost everyone was having great results with RP that has the Dexos1 label on it, so I decided to go with that.

I do have a BlackStone Labs UOA kit at home. Either the next oil change, or the one after I'll be filling it up and sending it off to get some results.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 Would somebody be kind enough to point out the approximate post count range of this thread when it was defined just what it is about Dexos makes it work magic for 100% e85? As compared to, say, GF-5 synthetics? I'd rather go read up on the conversation that already happened then ask people to rehash an old topic. That was early on when Valvoline was fighting against having to pay ~$0.35 per qt for the Dexos license. Since then they've pretty much gone all in on the Dexos train, along with other holdouts like Castrol. The current full list of Dexos 1 certified oils- dexos1 Brands | GM In the end, if not all Dexos oils work for the 100% e85 sticky/black death issues, wouldn't that mean it's not Dexos standards doing the magic, but rather something specific to the blends of a specific manufacturer?

I would agree that its not the dexos licence. There was something that royal purple did that made it much more compatible with E85, they even claim it as such. As far as why, I don't believe that was discussed.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

[Enki]

We don't know. IIRC, it was my suggestion that we try a Dexos oil because they are more hardened against the pitfalls of running ethanol fuels; it just so happened that the first (and only) Dexos oil I tried (because it was the ONLY one available where I live) had a dramatic improvement.

You are more than welcome to test other oils and let everyone know what you find, but be warned that you may need to run more than one oil change of an oil to see any impact, depending on just how adverse the affects of the prior oil were.

As for me, I've had my heart broken in the past testing full corn and I only need to change my oil twice a year at most so I'm just going to stick with what I know works.

[Sandman978]

@Enki; how much time/mileage between changes? Twice a year? Awesome, but that sounds like not daily driven.

[MSP6]

Originally Posted by g00s3y I did sort of the same, having it command 1800 instead of 1749. I swear I remember reading on here somewhere to bump it to 1800 on e85, but leave it at 1749 on pump. Made some other revisions also, can't wait to get out of work and go drive some more, hoping to get 200 miles out of a tank at least.

I have mine tapering down as rpm increases both for pump and on E.

The 1749 number is more or less to keep you below the 1850 psi crack limit of the RV. I had 1900-2000 psi all day everyday on my speed 6 targeting 1850 across the board...for about a month til my rv shit the bed. Now I tweak the tables to keep pressure in the 1700's with as few blips above 1800 as possible.

I did have to bump it over by 50-100 psi in spots after the switch to full E

[g00s3y]

Originally Posted by MSP6 I have mine tapering down as rpm increases both for pump and on E. The 1749 number is more or less to keep you below the 1850 psi crack limit of the RV. I had 1900-2000 psi all day everyday on my speed 6 targeting 1850 across the board...for about a month til my rv shit the bed. Now I tweak the tables to keep pressure in the 1700's with as few blips above 1800 as possible. I did have to bump it over by 50-100 psi in spots after the switch to full E

Thanks for the info, I actually kind of took Enki's FP table he posted, and sort of mimicked that to a degree. Now it will just be a lot of driving, logging, and making appropriate changes.

I must admit it was nice filling up at one station, and it only costing $31 for 14 gallons.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Sandman978 @Enki; how much time/mileage between changes? Twice a year? Awesome, but that sounds like not daily driven.

Last oil change was 2014-5-5, and I'm a little over 5500 miles in. It's the only running vehicle I own, so it is my daily, but no I don't drive every day. Working from home ftw.

[littleloogy]

My oci is every 3000 or 3 months.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

[Enki]

Originally Posted by g00s3y Thanks for the info, I actually kind of took Enki's FP table he posted, and sort of mimicked that to a degree. Now it will just be a lot of driving, logging, and making appropriate changes. I must admit it was nice filling up at one station, and it only costing $31 for 14 gallons.

I have a 2100 PRV; this table actually gets me fuel cut due to overpressure before I can even hit rev limit. I'm working on turning up the load up top to help with this, but the Autotechs make retarded pressure. Rail pressure stays above 1800 PSI pretty much the whole time, btw.

I kind of have to wonder if it isn't related to three lobes not lining up with injection events and a commanded DC % with overshoot to ensure proper fueling for when the injection event does come.

Wonder if someone can look into this with a scope or something; log DC% of spill valve along with voltage from rail sensor.

[mrmonk7663]

Enki, I went lower commanded pressures than that with the 2100 valve...nothing made it not cut. Even John at PTP couldn't make it "not cut" He sent me several maps a couple years ago trying...to no avail.

[Enki]

One of my older maps on the AP was doing well, then I went and fucked with it and it stopped behaving. I'm still trying to source a new PRV in the 2000 PSI range that's not from him, but it's proving difficult.

[mrmonk7663]

Good luck man. I ended up getting him to make me a valve with a 1975 cracking pressure and after I modified the fuel maps, it has been good to go. I've been running it like 2 years.

[littleloogy]

Could the raised fuel pressure be affecting the way the spill valve operates? I have noticed as you guys are playing around with higher pressure, you seem to have less and less control.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

[Enki]

Higher pressure? More like runaway pressure. Compare my posted pressure map above to your stock one.

Basically, the PRV is forcing higher pressure, which the spill valve ultimately controls. Stock PRVs are venting anything over 18x psi, but it's still climbing due to flow limits.

I'm betting this isn't a tuning issue, but a stock ecu logic issue. Going to make a request in the VT feature request thread for spill valve duty cycle to see if this is the case.

[mrmonk7663]

Ultimately, our problem is the fuel rail sensor. If we had a sensor that could read to 2500psi, we would be golden...unfortunately 2074 is all we get.

[Enki]

We can get another sensor that will read that high, but I don't think we have a way to change the parameters like we do with the MAP sensor.

6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other.

[MSP6]

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 Enki, I went lower commanded pressures than that with the 2100 valve...nothing made it not cut. Even John at PTP couldn't make it "not cut" He sent me several maps a couple years ago trying...to no avail.

Same exact thing for me. He sent me 3 or 4 revisions but when the last one commanded something like 900 psi at 6500rpm I had him refund me. He actually did ask me if I wanted a 1950 valve sent but I said no and sourced a stocker. He was helpful for the most part but kept trying to convince me that it was a tune issue and not a hardware issue lol

[mrmonk7663]

Yep, he tried to convince me it was a tune issue as well lol. It isn't...at least as far as what we are able to do with ATR. Thankfully, he swapped mine out so I didn't have to pay twice.

[g00s3y]

So car sat outside last night in the Florida "cold", had a tiny bit of trouble starting up. Nothing major at all, and once it started up, it was fine the whole drive to work.

Looking like I might actually be able to get 200+ miles out of the tank.

[MSP6]

Did it stumble and fake death for a second or did it just take longer to crank? I've had a few longer cranking episodes on sub 20* mornings but AFAIK that's a given with E. Had em on 50/50 sometimes too when it was that cold.

[Enki]

In my experience, it takes a couple tries to get it started. VersaTune, however, has tables that should specifically take care of that by allowing temperature based enrichment, so if I ever go back to full E, I should get one crank starts every time, much like what can be achieved on PI cars.

[littleloogy]

To make the car not start like shit on full corn Turn on ignition on, monitor actual FP, hold the gas and clutch down to the floor, crank engine, as the fuel pressure begins to climb release the throttle. You will get a nice crisp start.

After a while you will get a "feel" for how it builds pressure, you won't need to monitor pressure as startup.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

[g00s3y]

Originally Posted by MSP6 Did it stumble and fake death for a second or did it just take longer to crank? I've had a few longer cranking episodes on sub 20* mornings but AFAIK that's a given with E. Had em on 50/50 sometimes too when it was that cold.

It sort of half stumbles (maybe) & takes 1-2 more cranks, it really isn't major at all, at least that's what I feel. Along with the VTCS delete, the first 20 seconds of a cold start make it seem like my car is dying lol.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by littleloogy To make the car not start like shit on full corn Turn on ignition on, monitor actual FP, hold the gas and clutch down to the floor, crank engine, as the fuel pressure begins to climb release the throttle. You will get a nice crisp start. After a while you will get a "feel" for how it builds pressure, you won't need to monitor pressure as startup. Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Does this work when there's snow on the ground too?