50/50 indeed. 6.5 Gallons e85. Then fill with 93....You really have to work with the pump to get the 6.5 in there LOL.

I think yesterday when I filled up i got 6.53 gallons of e85 and 6.46 gallons of 93 or something like that.

but just "filling" with 93 will not give you the same ratio over time.

my tank total is only 12.xx thus why I would go 6 of E and 6 of 93 [that is IF I go that high with E]

not sure that's what you meant with 6.5 being your number..

does that even make sense?

I run down to 20 miles to empty every tank.

Trust me it takes precision.

You do understand that the lack of KR doesn't mean you aren't beating the piss out of your main and rod bearings right?

Not that I am saying you are, but you are operating on a leap of faith until someone tests 50/50 on a dyno to find MBT.

The only place I would be significantly concerned is your 2500 RPM timing as everything else isn't too far from demonstrated safe conditions...

yes and IIRC your timing numbers are not far off of Phate's for only having 1/2 the corn.

That sounds like over kill. Let's keep it simple for now and just do a 50/50 session IMO.

Weak sauce^^ [haha, you're running more timing than I would without being on a dyno!!]

The 2500 range is probably fine, as well, if it isn't causing knock. My flywheel is damned chattery down low, so I'm guessing that is what caused my KR in that rpm range.

The good news is......I aint scared...

Wow, I am a bitch...

Better safe than windowing a cylinder!

I'm scaling back a couple degrees to see what difference it brings.

That why I go 6 and 6 every fill up. Evetually the ratio is gonna be way off. Very easy to just go 6 of each. I mix 93 with ethonal in it also. That way my mixture is always spot on. Atleast I hope LOL

Dude you gotta dyno your shit before going BT! I mean, would it really take that long to fuck around with timing a bit?



Oh, and I tried to see if I just got lucky on my pull with the noticeably increased tire spin, but the clutch started slipping :(

Its ok to be scared of a k04 when on a medium turbo keith LOL

Both your guys timing curves make mine look weak. Very aggressive. Im like 10 less at 3500 and 5 less at 6500. Hummmm. I wonder. LOL

Well i guess i kind of terded out a bit and stepped back down a couple degrees....More than when I hit the dyno though atm....Car is pulling much harder.

looks like you need to step it up big boi! its dyno time

I think for the sake of all you fucks I will go hit the dyno and try to get an hour or so to test out some timing....

Unless @phate is planning to do so before I do it.

I'm thinking mid September for dyno time on 50/50. It would be good to have a second verification of a timing curve on 50/50, though (or @Bucker can throw down some real dyno time). Our cars are all pretty similar, if I'm remembering right.

The idea with gas is that on our motors we are knock limited before hitting MBT so you can tune riding the knock sensor. With E85 you can run past MBT without seeing any KR. The efficiency of the motor drops.

However you can also do some calculations from the E85 peak torque values phate showed to give you an idea of where MBT would be on gas IF we were not knock limited.

I'll try to get some time here in the next week or two.

Ill see what I can do later this month, but I only have a couple of weeks left with the car then Ill be outta town until early next year... Ugh.

Im planning on next tuesday morning at 8am to see how far I can take mine. Should be very interesting to see where it ends up. Ill start at the 15 peak I was running before and work my way up.

Understanding every car is different, but by the math, if phate peaked at 24, a 50/50 car should peak around 21/22 if there is no knock limitation. Not that you should start there, walking it up from 15 is the smart thing to do, just trying to give you a rough idea.


Zigatapatalka

That was my thought process.

im throwing the towel in....

I decided that if my car is going to blow I want it to blow with a big turbo attached to it.

No reason to keep pushing this little fucker when I have a upgrade in my garage.

I will go back to testing after turbo install....


Sorry neegas.

Meh, well if I can get running again Ill keep testing.

All i'm saying is just because it feels good doesn't mean your running "safe" timing.

Until i get on the dyno and see where i lose power I have to agree that pushing it aint worth it.

Not sure what I was supposed to be impressed with because that wasn't my argument. I never said you couldn't make power on E85. Cam does it all the time here on the Subies. I made my point very clear.

How so? Wasn't anything at all related to what I said about E85 and my experiences.

I'm still unsubbed from this thread because it won't change my personal experiences with the shit. I won't bring my arguments in so keep my name out. If it works for you so be it.

@Bucker u end up having to ship your ECU to cobb?

Haha, I've heard u say that shit before... I don't believe it at all. :23:

Today is a sad day. For the first time in over 4 months, I filled up with 93 octane :( I haven't gone full throttle yet, but I'm anticipating disappointment, haha. I'll switch back to E85 when I return from my trip Monday night.

I can tell you guys the car is ridiculously fun to drive with the flat power curve of the E85 tune. Being able to short shift at 4500rpm and still have power in the next gear is amazing. I'd bet it would be fun as hell on a road course.

@silvapain - I grabbed a 4th gear log last night that was pretty clean and I threw it into virtual dyno. It said 357hp and 472lb/ft of torque. The curve was almost identical to what I saw on the dyno, just raised a little bit. I'll post this up when I get back from work/class, tonight.

Anyway, I just putted around on one of Cobb's new boost tuning maps, and I must say - They are MUCH more refined than the older maps and my E85 map. The car drives very nicely with it. I think I'll transfer my E85 parameters into one of these to take advantage of how smoothly it drives on the low end.

Yeah man, I shipped it overnight to them this morning... $78 lol fuuuuuuuu. Doesn't seem like a widespread issue though.

Phate, I don't know if you got a good look at my tq curve, but I was amazed at how flat that was over the entire rev range. Comparing it to comparable 93 dynos I have much more "under the curve".

Just looked at it again. It looks pretty solid. E85 is allowing us to run much more timing, especially on the low end, it seems.

I filled up on 93 today too...

And then i made my 93 map beast mode LOL....It's so slow....

I found out part of it was the boost error comp...I don't run any. So i corrected that and will see how slow it is on the way home.

I am not writing e85 off. I just need to take a break. Again I don't want to pop because I pushed the k04 too far LOL.

You guys really make E85 sound like the bees knees.

It IS! Seriously, pull up a similar dyno to mine like Kiddmnkys and compare side-by-side. His peak numbers are about the same as mine, but look at the curves.

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._5842515_n.jpg

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1.00.53-am.png

i want e85 power and sexiness

So far so good with more timing...

Peaking at 18° at 6500RPMs, but with several degrees added in the mid range as well. I am still a minimum of 2.5° less aggressive than Phate's optimized timing.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...09S6timing.jpg

Morning pull:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6.../090111-13.jpg


Afternoon pull:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6.../090111-22.jpg

The stock K04 doesn't mind 23-24 PSI...

Car is pulling wicked fast in the mid range. I have occasionally chirped the tires from 4th gear rolls around peak torque, which is insanity defined...:boobies:

It's all about airflow...

ps - I hate your charts :tongue:

How the shit are you holding 18+ PSI at redline? I didn't think that was possible on K04...

No mercy?

I repeat...IT'S ALL ABOUT AIRFLOW!! Who cares what pressure it's at, as long as that little snail shell is pumping out my 280+g/s, I don't give a damn what pressure it's at.

If you prefer:

fwiw i also hate your charts lol

Yeah I HATE those charts lol... I just never spoke up. Dude, I need to add some boots down low then to keep up! Good shit. Maybe its time for the new MAP sensor too lol.

? for you E85 heads....

1st I noticed @cld12pk2go is running IVT24 plugs...well with the much cooler combustion of E has anyone considered going back to a hotter plug?

I would imagine this winter you may be forced to huh... or do you think the E70 blends will provide enough warmth to work out?

spray enough meth on it and it will go.

@cld12pk2go

are you running stock BC or an EBC in int mode?

edit: nevermind I see the grimmspeed

That's how you make a K04 do 18PSI at RL guys :)

Since we are sharing timing logs, and I am very interested in going to some sort of e-85 mix..this is where I ended up on pump gas and the current 35r set up with out meth, and it was about 93* during this run. Just wondering how far I could push my setup...

that is incredible without meth.

must be that killer IM :)

hahahaha.....it never hurts to have some good flow mods!! I has meth now.....but need to get back to the dyno so I can toooon for a little more timing!!!

I'm running stock heat range plugs...but I also thought ITV22's were about perfect for a maxed out K04 on gas. I would say stock heat range is fine for most applications, especially with those on eth mix. Time will tell, though, and hotter may even be the ticket for straight E85. When I get new plugs (after I switch back to E85), I will actually read them after a run, haha.

I have pulled my current and last sets of plugs a few times and never saw any indication of knock. They were also much, much cleaner looking than my plugs with gas ever looked. No nasty blackness in the cylinder :) Even looking through the spark plug hole at the piston, the crowns look like they've been cleaned up some.

I had to read this like 5 times to figure out you meant boost. Apparently, I'm retarded today.

But yes, everyone needs more boost everywhere, lol!!

That's some pretty sexy timing just on 93. Having a non-flamethrowing turbo does wonders, lol. That's pretty impressive, I could never get within 5* of that on 93 with my K04.

Exactly, the no mercy mod... :fingersx:

Me either...

what about you plugs??

Wouldn't you be able to push more PSI with the K04 with e85? considering that the problem with pushing the K04 is turning it into a heat blaster, which is why power drops(on 93 octane)....

e85 may allow more boost cuz the hot air is being cooled by corn during combustion(especially with meth/FMIC) ?!?!?




Again, I'm no expert, but I do read ALOT and that seems like a logical theory to me!?!?

E85 won't make the compressor flow more than it can. That's a mechanical limitation. If anything cooler E85 combustion will make less energy available to the turbine so it won't be able to spin as fast.

What it does do is make it less knock prone so you can tolerate the higher BATs of the K04 in flamethrower mode.


Zigatapatalka

@cld12pk2go

It looks like your logs show that same stupid dip in AFR when hitting that 200 maf g/s

I had very similar looking logs to those that you posted. I bet its pulling nice n hard.

On a side not...... LOL

I know my afrs are hair wacky I need to dial in my maf cal on my pump map....And i blame heat for a bit of the oddities.

This is on at most .5 gallon e85 and a full tank of 93......Eat your hearts out. Sorry for derail.

Turns out the car likes timing down low even on pump.

I was under the impression that the problem wasn't the turbo running out of breath, but that it just blows heat around 20psi which is obviously counter productive. I figured with e85 maybe you could keep the same boost curve, but add a psi or 2 throughout the range, since the hot air is being cooled!?!?

I will shut up now




Edit: I guess it is running out of breath when it blows heat... duh! still might be plausable though

Actually the problem with running e-85 on the K04 isn't due to exhaust heat, it's due to inherent cooling causing air flow to be higher.

In essence, you are pushing the plot points on the compressor map to the right (by quite a bit I'd imagine) at any given pressure ratio.

Basically, the more G/S you push, the less efficient the K04 becomes.

I would say your reaching out and touching the edges rather than pushing the points LOL.

my car is slow. Now I remember what it feels like to go as fast as bewsted's car :tongue3:

I don't know if I can handle 5 days without the eth. It's not worth tweaking this tune, other than a maf cal, lol.

@phate you crack me up nigga.....

All im saying is im still breaking loose in 3rd....and it is pulling well no where near as hard but sufficently enough to get me by.

I am all kinda curious about timing without e85 now.:tapedshut:

Put a fuel can in the car and run part eth...

says the guy who bricked his ecu because of a comprehension failure!

Right now, I'm running a straight OTS map. It'll barely break the tires lose in second gear!! I was just kidding about your car. It would own mine right now, lol.

Timing shouldn't be too much different with good gas, really. Should be a very similar curve, just a degree or three less, but most of the time we are knock limited and don't get to take advantage of the available power.

yuppers...

I am going maybe put 1 gallon in the car just to see what that does for it.

I cleaned my MAF this weekend and also installed the 3-Bar MAP sensor. Since these changes I have had that rich dip.

I pulled 1% from the MAF curve from 230-300 g/s on the v109S6 map revision this morning to help mitigate it (just an incremental change).

On Illinois E10 93 octane and the knock sensor offset at the stock 0.8 values I can still run 15.5* of timing advance at redline with at most 0.7* of knock on occasion.


Tapadatass

Ahhhh. The addiction continues. Lol

Sent from my MB300 using Tapatalk

lmao...nah...trying to figure out what can be done on 1 gallon with timing.

So what you're saying is...you're addicted.

[It's ok, so am I.]

@silvapain:

Here's a 4th gear run in virtual dyno: Using the standard dynojet correction factor of 1.07 was definitely high. I had to cut it down to a correction factor of 1.01 in order to get it closer to my dyno numbers. I also removed the very low end portion of the dyno graph, since dynos don't really read low rpm's.

Virtual dyno with 1.01CF and 3700+ rpm:
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...Gear_101CF.jpg
^^As you can see, the above run was lean, so it's possible it was my leaner map. BUT, they were almost identical power curves.

For reference, again (cropped version of prior dyno graph):
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...20110828-2.jpg

Overall, the curve looks damned similar - very impressive. Maybe the dyno I was on was just a stingy whore, haha.

@bbarnhill - Thought you might like to see this! Any comment as to why the standard correction would be so much higher compared to the actual dyno run? Conditions were almost identical to when I dyno'd.

Datalog is attached to this post.

Subbed for groans

It all depends on how the operator calibrated his dyno @phate. I've heard of some seedy shops calibrating their dynos to be generous on purpose.

Is this virtual dyno available for download somewhere?

I would like to crunch through some of my pulls...

Here you go man. It works good. And stays consistent if you are on flat roads.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...ExdmtA&cad=rja

Here is my first log from yesterday:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...0111-1VD-1.jpg

I could live with those numbers if real! :danems6:

Any idea how to make the RPM axis show starting at ~1500 RPMs? I don't see it as an option anywhere...

Damn. those are big #'s lol.

Not sure how to change the rpm axis, I think it's supposed to chart where you started WOT, by looking at tp/app

When I saw Phate's dyno, I thought HOLY SHIT, those are silly numbers for the stock turbo.

Then I thought, cld12pk2go is running e-85, and spraying a ton of meth too. I was wondering what cld12pk2go would dyno, and I guess I have a rough answer. LOL

SICK!

If that program is anything like excel, right clicking on the axis lines opens a dialog box that allows for scaling.

Comparing dyno numbers is like competing in the special olympics??

I'm 100% in agreement with the whole dyno comparison idea, but I wanted to see cld12pk's

numbers, considering he is running as much e-85 as anyone AND a shitload of meth.

TBH, I would love to have either of your virtual dyno numbers.

If the VD is shown to be pretty darn close to a real dyno (like your info suggests), then it becomes a neat tool for comparison purposes. With that said, MPH at the strip is the true test for power...


I am still only running ~E45 (not remotely close to Phate's E85). I filled up this morning with 7 gallons of E85 and 5.3 gallons of 93.

I do have a FMIC and Exhaust manifold above Phate's mods, so in theory I should be able to eek a little more power out of the K04. I just don't know how much those mods buy me vs straight E85 like Phate is running.

VD starts and ends the run based on accelerator pedal position or throttle plate position. You can adjust it within that range by the slider in the car details box on the left of the window.

If you want it to start lower, go into you datalog file and manually change the PID's mentioned above.


Tapadatass

I have been using VD for about 3 months now....but can't get it to match up with actual DJ dyno numbers. I'm talking my 350 run comes out to 497 w/o correction and 430ish with SAE and lots of smoothing...7 IIRC

With that said you can def use it to monitor change on a car and I may use it on my e-tunes. The key is to take your logs in the exact same location. any incline or decline will skew the numbers greatly. distance/time calculation ya know.

so find you a spot and let 4th gear rip starting at the same RPM and its a good tool to monitor change.

Well you bastards convinced me...

Just filled up with 6 gallons of E85 and 6 gallons of 93. Scaled MAF up 20% and now its time for a cal. I also turned off the 50/50 WMI until I get the MAF dialed in.

Thanks for such a detailed thread. This has been very informative and entertaining.

Can you post some Virtual Dyno runs before and after tuning for 50/50? It would be nice to see how much power can be improved by... make sure the logs are in the same place under similar conditions.

Will do. I have 100s of logs under the 50/50 so i'll post up some compare charts.

Attached is a compare of [50/50 meth D05 nozzle + 93] vs. [6 gal of E85 with no meth]. All I did was calibrate the MAF and adjust the load tables. I left AFR at 11.9 and timing tables the same on both runs. There is a noticeable driveability difference between the two setups unless its just the placebo effect. Seemed like the car was just so much more enjoyable. Part throttle was smooth and felt like it pulled more and kept me planted in the seat.

Temps were identical and the runs were done on the same stretch of road. I'm going to turn on the meth next to get the BATs down to see if that does anything at all. After that I'll see what some timing will do and maybe lean out the car a little more.

So after playing with Virtual Dyno for a little bit, I think I have it mostly figured out.

The following plots are using the 1.01 correction factor to be more apples to apples with Phate.

These two pulls are about 6 weeks apart, but on the same road and with ambient temps withing 2°F of each other.

The newer log does have about 1 PSI more boost below 4500 RPMs, but mostly this plot is showing how huge the difference a few degrees of timing makes. +85 ft-lbs at 3000 RPMs is just nuts!

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...hightiming.jpg

Timing:

Torque:

Very nice gains.

Has anybody played around with timing in the low load/low RPM region with e85 mixes? Any improvements in drivability? I imagine with e85 mixes, cruising spark advance is no longer optimal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Haven't touched it, but I don't think its a big deal, the car drives great.

Seconded; I'm running a slightly modified (throttle mapping and some limiter finesse, no AFR/timing changes) BT TIH 91 octane map with 3 gallons of e85; just putting in the three mixed saw IMMEDIATE change in car behavior, even heatsoaked. It's unreal.

Car still drives perfect.

If you seek e85 knowledge your in the right place.......

Go back a few pages you will how beast mode we haz timing down low.

I have not, but you are probably on the right track. Similar to how E85 needs more timing at full throttle, we could probably see some mileage gain by allowing more timing throughout the entire low load range. The car does drive fine using the same timing as gas maps, though.

PS - Tail of the dragon is awesome. I'm sitting at the lodge in Fontana Village Resort looking over the mountains!!

I've almost run my last bit of 93 octane to empty. I'll start running 50/50 mix after one tank of straight E85 so I can get my fix, lol. I want my bottom end power back :)

i do too...soon enough lol

Tired of constantly rebuilding your fuel pump?