I've now balded my tires to the point where i cant take 3rd gear logs on pump nemore LOL


LOL at spinning 3rd gear on pump

Well, yes, but no. We need to see if 50/50 makes similar power to straight E85.


I'm going to order some ITV20's tonight, along with some T-bolt clamps for the entire cold side. I'm thinking my intermittent lean issue could be a small post-MAF/pre-turbo leak.

I'm gonna take a guess @ what you make on 50/50 now.

I'd bet on 315-325 hp and 360-375 trq....

I think thats prolly about where i was sitting on my last map....Just a guess though.

I don't know which you prefer, but was wondering if you considered constant torque clamps vs. T-bolts.

I've never used constant torque clamps, so this may be a good time to try them out.

CT clamp? wtf is this shit lol

Spring Loaded T-Bolt Clamps, Constant Torque Clamps, Liner Clamps, Turbo & Intercooler Clamps, Silicone Hose Clamps

Agreed. I think my ITV22's hurt me on the 50/50 dyno pull along with stupid heat. I hope to hit the same dyno again in ~ 2 weeks.

Phate likes corn plugs

I tried stock heat range ngks iridiums vs itv22s at the dyno the other day and the itv22s dropping them in made like 3-5whp more across the board, and the ngks were new vs used itvs. I thought also the stock heat range plug would work better but it didnt appear to.

My car also ran out of fuel right at 360whp uncorrected with 50/50 e85/pump. Im gonna scale back to 40% e85 and see if I can get the 24psi I want on the dyno. Weird thing is on 24psi on the street the car is at 100% idc but afrs are spot on. At the dyno it goes lean. So I cant see what it makes at 24psi cause I just go lean. Even trying several ways to get more fuel. So Im gonna dial it back and see what changes. If I can still run my timing curve, not get any knock and get 24-25psi without going lean, then Ill be happy power wise. Thats all I wanna do. Seems like I have to run 24psi on this turbo to do what my 3071 did on only 20psi. I just dont like having to run so much boost all the time.

Is it just the slightly slower spool? Otherwise the 76 should flow more per pound of boost.

Dude you would think so but for some reason my 3071r worked better per lb of boost. Same with my buddies 3071r setup. His car beats up on his freinds 3076r setup and he only runs 18psi compared to his buddies 22psi. Shit just dont make sense. And its not just slightly slower spool. Its like 400-500rpms. Which is very noticable.

You probably have more airflow on the street, hence cooler boost, hence more fuel needed.

No on the street its fine. I can run 24psi and it dont go lean. On the dyno it does at anything past 22psi.

Assuming they are ATP, It's the hotside. .55 on both with the same dia exhaust wheel means they flow nearly the same (like crap) on the high end. The compressor wheel for the 3071 was probably operating at a more efficient point than the 3076, you might be on the lowside of the efficiency island, and running out of fuel before you could move onto it.

Are you using the same sensor on both, or is the dyno's wideband telling you are going lean?

Zigatapatalka

Im using the ap to monitor. I assumed that was the issue with the 3076. It making good power I just dont wanna have to run 24psi to do it. I wonder if I port the shit out of the back half if it will help??? I might try that and see what happens.

@phate

Are you planning to head back to the same dyno for a full tuning session on 50/50 as well? I'd love to try 100%, but I can't have my car's pump clog up on the way to work, and the guys on 50/50 don't seem to have that problem. I don't fully understand why they don't have the issues of 100%, but I'll just add that to the list of things that I haven't figured out about this car yet.

I guess its the dilution factor.....

Seems like it would still happen, but just half(ish) as often. I think I'll still install that fuel filter pre-HPFP to be sure. Maybe 50/50 doesn't cause enough to get past the stock filter. All just guesses, of course.

I've been on 50/50 for like 5000 miles and its still running just fine with no gunk etc. Just my 2 cents.

Yeah, same dyno on 50/50.

@Bucker
Have you ever pulled your pump apart and the spill valve sol??


Tappin

I did....And there was so little residue On the ram and inside the cap that I didn't see a reason to pull the whole pump apart...

I actually checked mine twice during e85 use to find the same result.

I was hoping that would be the case. I'll probably still go ahead with that filter though, cheap insurance and all.

I haven't taken it fully apart, but from what I could see from removing the internals, everything looks fine. My only concern is that my FP in my latest AP log hit the 1500's in 1 or two cells on a pull. I took out the internals today again and all looked well. Could just be paranoia.

Take them out again tomorrow to confirm paranoia.

Just ordered my ITV20's for $33 shipped!! Didn't order the clamps - no time to measure all of them last night. I developed a slight shimmy in the front brakes while in the mountains, so I was checking them out last night.

Yea...I mean really to be honest....I did a couple pump installs this weekend and seen more oil/residue on the inside of their caps then I did mine....

Hmmmm....could be the seals...

I've been having lots of fun with WMI 50/50 + 50/50 E85 this week. The car doesn't care what is going on outside as the temps don't seem to phase it. I did many back to back runs and they felt very consistent. I can't wait for the rain to pass so I can hit the dragstrip.

There has been something weird happening from time to time. I had my car loaded up with 2 CBE's and a passenger traveling on the highway in 4th gear. I decided to do some logs on the long ride home. It was still drying up from a rainstorm but that didn't stop me from getting some work done. Check out the attached logs. Log #2 is very "strange".

This happened 2 out of 9 datalogs. The first time it happened I had traction control on and I noticed the traction light flash. I turned it off but it still happened again without the light flashing. Is this a symptom of the SWAS?

didn't look at logs but if it shit itself went way rich and pulled a ton of timing...your answer is yes.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...disable-90739/

That's exactly what it did. Thank you!

Fixed.

just looked and its and easy try to fix.

Thanks Blue :firedevil: It only seems to happen when its wet out and I lose traction. It's very consistent otherwise and I'm really pleased with the way the car deals with the outside air temps.

Im up there also. Around 4-5k miles and hard ridden miles at that. I would say there is over 150 logs, and to much racing to keep track of. Drag racing, street racing, autocross, time attacks, and hillclimbs. Shits still going strong on 50/50. Its time to dial back just a touch though. Im completely out of fuel at 22-24psi depending on the day. I wanna be able to run 22psi on the daily and 24psi at the track. So its that or add meth to the mix. My track days are coming up fast so Im gonna have to figure it out soon. Another option is just continue using 50% e85 on the street at 22psi and then run 25psi on oxygentated 104 race gas at the track. Id have plenty of fuel for that. I would be curious if I could run the same timing map on race gas. Car is loving it at 19 degrees max timing right now. The curve just gets smoother and climbs harder with that much timing. Still havent pushed it past that.

How does your MAF calibration compare from 91 octane to the 104?


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its pretty much a drop in fuel. ive dropped it into several speeds with 0 change and its almost spot on.

I was actually wondering tif the fuel filter was why phate's ITFP crapped out... Not only having to keep up with the lower viscosity e85, but maybe that fuel filter was putting strain on the ITFP while trying to deliver enough fuel to the HPHP..... Just a theory



PLUS, running 100%, phate saw next to nothing in the filter after dissecting it IIRC... and it didn't affect the gumming proccess

The ITFP, itself, was fine. I would say the filter was the likely culprit for the 'failure'. I just replaced the entire assembly so I could dissect the original, and everything except the filter looked fine.

The in-line filter had little to no affect on build-up after ~3k miles.

Anyone notice an increase in part throttle BATs on e85? Maybe its just a byproduct of running e85 or its all in my head.

Outside Air Temp 81F
IAT 83F
BAT 122F

This is on my highway cruise to work. I usually see 109F everyday but since the switch it sits at 122F. As soon as I blip the throttle it drops like a turd in water. I'm not really worried about it because my WOT runs still end up the same around 105ish.

I know I know...get a FMIC or GTFO.

Nope, because part throttle BAT's don't mean anything ;) And the stock top mount is plenty sufficient if you run straight E85!

Understood. It's the only thing I can come up with as everything else has been so positive. I'm really happy with the change to E85. You guys rock! Thanks for such a detailed thread.

I'm having a hard time staying away from the gas station that has my e85.

FYI, E85 is higher viscosity than gasoline.

The viscosity curve is essentially linear increasing from E0 to E85.

LOL, me too. I haven't switched back to E85 yet. I'm waiting for my new clamps and spark plugs. One of the pos clamps broke when I took the cai/tip off to measure everything. So I'm trying to drive it nicely with a partially tightened clamp.

It's been pretty chilly here, and I'm sure the E85 wouldn't like it too much. Hopefully it is just a matter of spark plugs, because I wouldn't mind the extra airflow from cold weather, lol. Who can say no to free power?

@Bucker - I went with T-Bolts. Constant Torque clamps were going to be more than twice as much, and I'm cheap!

Your going 50/50 arent you Clint?

Yeah, I'll be running ~E40, similar to you and others. I think I need to get an ethanol content tester to ensure the stations are still running summer blend E85, and not winter blend E70. That could skew some results, lol.

Indeed it could....

Sorry off topic I know, but how the hell are you running 83* IATs with 81* ambients. My drive to work this morning (15 min cruise on the hwy at 70) the dash ambient thermo said 66*, yet my IATs were hovering around 90*, with BATs in the low 100's.

And I actually thought this was great as I just removed that weather stripping on the back of the hood last night. Yesterday on the way in was about the same, mid 60s and I had IATs over 100 during cruise at 70 mph. FML

Back on topic, I am trying to lock in my tune on shit 91 we have here, especially after the new ATR with all the new timing and fueling changes. Once I do that, I will probably start running 2-3 gals E85 until this winter hits. Oh and bump my timing up 1-2* across the board as well :439:

My IATs are always a few degrees off of ambient air temp when I'm on the highway. City and traffic is a different story though and I see 90-100s easy.

In your head....or heatsoak not related to e85!

FWIW I know the stock BPV and most forges (spring dependent) are open when at idle/low throttle conditions. Don't know for sure about other recirc systems, but they are probably the same. I am pretty sure that there is backflow in the recirc system so a large amount of air bypasses the turbo/intercooler entirely, going straight from the tip to the cold pipe. I say this because my FMIC made no significant difference on my idle/low throttle bats, but a huge difference in high throttle bats and I have seen MAF issues at idle resulting from the recirc tube being too close to the MAF


Zigatapatalka

Any pull-type BPV/BOV will be open under vacuum (Synapse Synchronic, HKS SSQV, etc).

why doesent E85 like cold weather?

LTFT's tell all. I can see when I get my mix slightly off and by how much by reading LTFTs.

If you are referring to the cold start issues, it is very specific to the lower vapor pressure of ethanol vs gasoline making it difficult to light off the mix.

It's just a theory right now. When it's warm out (>75°F) my car absolutely rips on E85. It's super smooth throughout the entire rev range.

When it cools off outside, the car starts to get what feels like a tiny bit of spark blowout. I'm gonna throw in the ITV20's to see if it cures it. It could be due to the injectors being pushed even farther due to the extra airflow from cold weather, but I'm hoping it's not.

@cld12pk2go - the car has the cold start issue with E85 unless it's like >95° outside. First crank won't start the car, second crank always fires. That is only after the car is dead cold...like leaving it overnight.

ITV20s are a step colder correct? If that's the case the blowout will get worse. Unless this is incorrect in which case ignore my statement :) <- Disregard my post, the ITV20s are warmer plugs! Carry on!

It's actually not bad of a tradeoff with the temps dropping - with every ~15 degree drop in BAT at WOT, I see a possibility of adding ~1 degree timing on pump gas.

Warmer...

Disregard me not seeing you disregarding.

noob E85 user checking in.

so I am running 3/9 gal ratio of E to 93. We are ~ 60* in the mornings and no cold start issues [IVT22] which I wouldn't expect with such a low concentration.

As has been pointed out, the car is a different machine.

My First tank was 2.5 gallons E to~10 93, with no tune change the car completely ripped. I used to have some semblance of traction in 3rd before this but it went away. BTW I am running Yoko Advan A048s...DOT racing rubber, so not your normal Nitto/Dizzera type street rubber. IIRC treadwear rating is 63...yes double digit numbers here LOL

On my second tank of the 3/9 mix and on the first tank without tune, the car actually got a bit slower. My guess is the concentration of E went past some tipping point of requiring more timing to optimize the burn.

I bumped up timing to the below values and have made another leap in power. Had to tweak APP tables again to get some traction back.

the reduced advance to 3K is so I can get the GT28 spooled up faster...I suspect these values will be too retarded for a K04.

This is my first timing change so no tweaking as of yet and only one 4th gear log but things feel great.

From 2500

IIRC everyone else in here is running a 5050 mix and so I have no data to go on for more timing advance. I suppose I have room for more advance toward RL but no idea how much more could be used in the mid range, any ideas are welcome.

no changes to the MAF and as @cld12pk2go observed, no AF shift at wot as of yet and only +5% LTFT at cruise. I see no reason to scale my maf at this point

My goal here is to run the least amount of E to make more power and along with Dustin's dyno data and my experience so far, 2.5 to 3 gallons is probably all that is needed to remove the knock limitation of pump gas.

I assume you are still spraying meth?

What nozzle and meth blend are you using?

I would say you can safely go even a couple/few more degrees, because straight gas seems to like even a little more than you currently run. Get on a dyno if you want to be safe ;)

I'm glad you like the E....That stuff needs to come with a warning about how addictive it is.

Phate has outlined a good set of WOT timing values that are at MBT on his car when he dynoed. With just E85 you can move far past MBT without knock ... unlike gas. Keep an eye on that as moving past MBT not only loses power, but you start to spike cylinder pressures for no reason.

I would seriously look at a loaded dyno time to get a good idea of timing at different RPM/load points as you get to the high E85 mixtures and the knock limit is no longer holding you back. Otherwise, just play it safe.

On E85, you lose about 1% Net Indicated Mean Effective Pressure in the cylinders for each 1 degree timing you are away from MBT.

I am currently on a DO7 nozzle and have switched from 100% meth to a 70/30 Meth/H2O mix.

Again, my setup is in a state of change right now and I am just getting started to dial everything in. I feel the H2O has cut some power but I do want the cleaning aspect of it. I have a DO10 nozzle and I may try the 70/30 mix with it at some point. This way I get more fuel and still get steam cleaned :)

Then again the E may make it unnecessary for the larger nozzle...time will tell.

yes but he was on 100% E ....I'm staying tuned for his 5050 dyno run and timing curve :)

I am guessing the 1% loss was more pronounced when I went from 2.5 to 3 gallons without timing change.

hahah

my car wouldn't run this timing with a DO7 nozzle 100% meth on 93 LOL just one of those things...every car is different.

True. I should have added the caveat "unless you are knock limited". ;)

The thing we have yet to verify is if running more than 2-3 gallons actually benefits your car in a way that generates more power.

You would think that there would be gain with the increase in "octane" but as we are still all concurring until someone dyno's the 50/50 and then the 2-3 gallons to verify.

I'm saying @Bucker needs to hit the dyno again and change timing LOL.

Change timing in what manner? Im outta this bitch in just under 1 month from today, so I wont have my car until Feb or so next year... Ill try and dyno one last time though.

Start with lower timing...like closer to what you had on 93....Then go up a couple degrees at a time. Till you stop making power.....

Then we have someone else who has already dynod on 2-3 gallons and compare the timing that they ran.

And of course the POWA!

This thread makes me jealous every day. Wish we had E-85.

Dano, did you measure the effect on IDC with the 3 gal of ethanol?

If knock resistance is greatly improved by only 2-3 gallons, it might be feasible for me to get a few 5 gal jugs so I have enough for a weekend at the track or can go a month or two between hitting the E85 station.


Zigatapatalka

Actually no. I'll log IDC this weekend.


Tappin

Anyone try using store bought Ethanol (denatured alcohol) and mixing 2 gallons into a tank of normal gas where E85 is not available?

What about mixing methanol instead of ethanol directly into the tank?

If you don't live in the US, E10 is the best you can do at the pump.

Does E at the pump have lubricants added that wouldn't be included in store bought eth.


Tappin

Dunno, but denatured ethanol is like $10+ a gallon at the store. (I used it for stripping paint) At that price would rather use an oxygenated race fuel which will have the higher energy density of gasoline and an E85 like 105 octane rating.


Zigatapatalka

amen E is 2.94/gal here.

Lex was just trying to give the poor souls that don't have E an alternative.

Still working up the timing....

So far so good:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...R/090911-1.jpg

Peaking at 19° at 6500 RPMs.


I am 2.5° less than Phate's final best timing from 3000-5000, then 4° less at 5500 and 5° less at 6000-6500RPMs.

I am going to add another 0.5° at 5500 and 1° at 6000-6500 on my next map. I doubt I push any further than that to be prudent as Phate's engine might be a bit different than mine.

The car simply rips.

FWIW im running dano's timing numbers above on a D07 5050 and like 25-27 psi lol

i get a .35/.7 here and there but otherwise nothing

oh yeah...well I slept with your wife....and your car>my car.

BTW modding my timing tables as we speak...they are a goin up.

To hell with all of you and your E85. Canada sucks.


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I went to my son's football game last night, and there was an e85 station 6 miles from there. I was so tempted to buy some gas cans and load up. I really need a station closer than 30-45 mintues away.

I am near a station right now. My tank is almost full, so would it mix ok if I just topped off with 2.5-3 gallons of e?

I filled up with 7.5 gal E85 and 5 gal 93 today, the fuel gauge was below E, so the mix should be pretty close to E50. I'll dial in the MAF curve once I get my new intake clamps.

I put in 2.5 exactly, then finished filling with 93. I drove 5 miles through town to make sure that the fuel had time to get in the system, then commenced to logging. I did two 3rd gear pulls and four 4th gear pulls on a tune that I was consistently getting 2-3 KR with when it was even cooler outside than today. I got 0.00 KR on every single pull, the car pulled smoothly, and LTFTs were within +/-6 at all times during the drive home. I like!

In for ur logs

tapa dat ass

I'm only running 16psi right now, but this is with the exact same tune with the exception of timing. The 93 octane pull was a much cooler day, BATs were 86* compared to 118*. After 8 pulls total, I got 0.00 KR on every one of them. The car pulled more smoothly and stronger as well with the E85. I'm planning to try more boost and different timing soon, but I just happened to have this map on my AP when I passed the E85 station. :smokin: It was one that kept getting KR on 93, so I dialed it back.

93 octane from 3k-6k
7.00 7.00 8.00 8.00 9.50 12.00 13.00

2.5 gallons of E85 to a full tank of 93
7.00 7.00 10.00 10.00 11.50 15.00 17.00

I havent filled up in like 2 weeks... gotta do that tomorrow I think. @bewsted, I might dial back some timing up top for you...

I filled up with 7 gal E85 and 5.7 gal of 93 today.

I averaged 22 mpg on my last tank with the same ~E45 mix.

I ran the numbers, and I am paying about 9% more per mile with E45 than straight 93 octane even with E85 being $3.29 vs $3.94 for 93; however, that is a dirt cheap expense for the additional power I am making.

I need to get back on the dyno and continue where I left off. I stopped at 19 degrees max timing and was still making big gains per degree of timing. 5whp average. I wanna see if there is more in there.

All sorts of good stuff in here guys. Keep it up. Im very impressed with what the stock turbo guys are doing. Im thinking that a bnr stg1-2 with 50% e85 would be a badass setup for relatively cheap. 350whp 425ftlbs could get 11s at sealevel Im certain.

You should...i guarentee you wont lose power....

Initial E50 Report:

I know I said I was going to wait, but my car was really, really slow on an OTS 93 octane tune. So I tweaked my E50 MAF curve tonight, upped the boost, and threw timing at it. I'm a few degrees away from my E85 timing figures, and the boost on the low end isn't comparable, yet. The car pulls well, but it doesn't have that same kick in the ass "WTF" factor, yet.

It could definitely be me, so I'm not discounting E50. I have more WGDC to add on the low end, and at least a couple degrees of timing can be added throughout the entire rev range. We shall see.

@phate

What boost are you running?

I've been messing with my tune on the 15% mix, and I'm up to 19psi, 11.9 AFR, and more timing than I was running on the 16psi map. I still have KR when it gets too aggressive, so I can get a fair idea on the street tune what timing to run. The car feels great, but I'm out of wiggle room with the stock HPFP. It's just barely starting to drop below 1600psi, and if it gets any colder outside, it will fall fast. This has been a blast, and I think I have the fever.

Final timing tables from tonight

I'm not sure about timing at 6500, every pull went FUBAR right after 6k for me.

On this tune so far, only about 18psi until 4-4.5k, then maxed at whatever it can produce out to redline. So the mid/top end are pretty comparable on airflow.

Timing is not optimized for the E50, of course...I think I ended the night with ~17° @ 6500. [It's on my laptop, which is in my car, lol.] So there is definitely power to be had with more timing.

Waiting for VD plots! :You_Rock_Emoticon:

I'm having an issue with a lean spot that keeps happening. I have posted 2 logs I took yesterday that both show it ~4100 RPM for a couple hundred RPMs. I target 12.4 AFR but these damn things spike to 13.4 then go back to normal. It freakin is driving me nuts. I guess it could be a traction loss issue or something, but I am pretty sure I have seen it in 4th at the same rev range. ANY input would be greatly appreciated.

I can't look at it for the moment. If it's happening at the same spot every time, are you sure that your WOT MAF cal is good? That would be the first thing that I would think of. Mine has a blip for one or two cells here and there within 1% of my targets, but it's spot on besides that. Are your AFRs solid like that, or are they jumping all over the place? Has it just started doing what it's doing?

Are all 9 of your fuel tables (not counting max enrich) targeting 12.4:1?

Have you cleaned your MAF recently?

All tables target 12.4 AFR. I have not cleaned my MAF recently, but this very well might be the issue. I have tried to scale the MAF curve there to force more fuel, but it doesnt seem to have an impact despite the fairly consistent 13.44 ish AFR spike.

Just clean the hell out of the sensor with CRC MAF cleaner and make sure to hit it with a hair dryer or something to dry up any condensation prior to re-installation.

That should only take 15 min and can fix it.

WOT MAF cal was pretty good, then I bricked my ECU and sent it to Cobb. I installed it again about a week ago and it has been weird since. I have tried messing with the WOT MAF CAL numbers but it seems to have little to no effect on the lean spike. It happens ~4100 RPMs each time and is pretty consistent in how much it changes (13.44ish).

I am on my 3rd car tuning now that no matter what you do to MAF, fuel tables [even beta clutch tbls], LTFT breakpoints, etc, car runs lean around spoolup. Yours is def later but DJ has had the same spoolup lean issues with other cars.

There must be some more fuel tables out there we don't have access to.

This may not even be your issue but I thought I'd post up my findings on leanness. Without meth my car does the same thing but only sometimes.