BAAAAAAAM!!!!!!!!

kick fucking ass man! very nice curves and I am still not sure I am reading the timing numbers right LOL

so you continued to make power with each timing increase and you are not beyond MBT??

and yes logs to match the runs please when you get a chance.

great work for sure!

Subbed for later... I'm interested in seeing how to cure the gunk issue. I have a feeling those dyno charts will make a lot of people convert to E85... including myself. Good job, man.

phate, did you encounter any KR when you were pushing timing BEYOND peak power?

This makes me wonder if injecting ethanol rather than methanol would be of benefit.

SICK, SICK, SICK.

Thanks Phate, for this thread, and using your car as a guinea pig.

I have had several people mention to me to use ethanol instead when I was looking to but meth locally.

It would be nice to do it that way so you don't have to worry about your primary fuel source getting clogged up or eaten up.

Interested to hear more thoughts on this.

i have had 0 issues with 50% e85 and I wish I had more fuel to run a bigger %. But Im maxed now at 24psi and 50% e85. So looks like I need to hit the dyno soon. Like maybe this weekend and see what I can gain if any with more timing. As of now Im maxed at 17 degrees. But last time I went I didnt play with timing so it looks like I must LOL. 25whp on a maxed out k04 with 10 degrees is pretty good. I made 30whp on my bros going from 30-40 so its about almost identical. Its nice to see even on different platforms we are seeing similar results.

I wanna say thanks to Phate for spending the time and money to verify what all of us on e85 have known, but didnt have any solid proof. Its works great on these cars at the proper levels. I do think if someone was wanting to run straight e85 that doing the 2 gallons of 93 per tank is a very good suggestion, and I would be willing to bet eliminates 90% of Phates build up he is seeing. GReat stuff bud.

Ps. For anyone that still doubts that just running e85 doesnt add power alone, show me one meth or race gas equipped speed3 tuned and almost bone stock making 300+whp!! Shit there isnt many even fully bolted. This is great verification and I hope to see similar results on paper.

Haha ive been playing with e85 on my 2011 gti. The nice thing about my car is that it can manipulate lambda over the full scale, even though in OL i run kinda lean(well within safety) (commanded is 11.8, actual is 12.0-12.1) which is still well withing what most people run on e85 mixes (12.6 is as far as ive seen people go)

Im stuck with cookie cutter chipping for my tune though, so i cant increase timing.
But I keep my full timing damn near all the time(high heat/ humidity). Except with AC on, but thats because the ECU gets its hands in their with it on to keep everything safe. So even for my VW mixing in 3.5-4 gallons of e85 on top of ethanol free 93 has been doing world of benefits for me. Breaking 3rd loose with a little ko3!

If i moved up to a 50/50 mix i could run the race tune with 26 degrees of timing. that would net low-mid 300's wtq while pushing whp closer to 300. (k03 turbo is made for torque and torque alone)

This just goes to show the possibility of E85 in DI FI motors.

Shun the non believers of e85.

Edit: If i had a k04, i would be at mid 300's on pump 93, so id imagine e85 could push that closer to the 360-400 whp/tq and beyond on the race gas timing.

@jmhinkle

I'll post some datalogs from the street. I have like 25 datalogs all called 'datalog1.csv' from the dyno, lol. I was trying not to waste too much time in between runs since the car was staying cool. I tried bumping up timing @ 2500 rpm and it carried KR through the entire rev range. That was the worst KR I saw throughout the day.

If you are going from gas to straight E85, I would initially scale the maf curve by ~30%. I think I ended up scaling it up a little more on the top end, and the lower range (idle and just off idle) down from there. The idle range is a bit finicky.

Boost was pretty much maxed starting at 3700rpm or so. It eclipsed the MAP sensor for a couple lines in each data log and tapered out from there.

Power increased with each addition of timing up to the last curve I posted. I went beyond those numbers by 1° or so and saw no additional gain. I then went another .5-1° (depending on rpm) and saw a decrease in power.

No, the runs actually became cleaner and cleaner as I approached my final timing curve. No significant KR throughout the entire day. Even when I went beyond my final timing curve, no kr was recorded.

That's the scary part of E85.

Methanol is higher octane and has a higher latent heat capacity. I see no reason to substitute eth for meth in any WMI kit.

ouch!

that's gonna leave a mark!

Or the good part depending on how you look at it. LOL

I am curious how much earlier you would have hit MBT if you were not running E85 given that there was no knock.

How does the burn rate of E85 compare to gasoline? Intuition tells me it is slower - so a gas car would hit MBT earlier.

EDIT: Looks like MBT timing for gas and E85 should be quite similar. E85 actually takes a bit more advance to reach MBT but it should only be a few degrees.

This exactly....

Guess its safe to say that we are a ways behind the timing game even with 50%

@driver311

You too big boy!

Correct; and for meth vs eth, you'd want eth in the tank, and meth for spray as eth is just a little less corrosive than meth, so this is already pretty much the ideal setup.

I think it also safe to say that your not gaining an astronomical decrease in bats due to e85 so the meth would still help improve bats.

Good until you bend a rod LOL

WOO! Just got some logs on a timing map similar to yours @phate and its looking good on the e85 mix. I love you man.

@bewsted

Dont forget your not running 100% e85 like him LOL...

This is my big question as well

Yes you do, but it happens in the cylinder; this is why motors running E85 flow more air than the same engine on regular pump gas.

Wouldn't that be a decrease in combustion temps not boosted air temps?

I get what your saying....I completely understand it...the heat the turbo pulls from the motor is cooler than it is on pump.

Which would mean less heat exchange occuring in the turbo itself.

Edit: Maybe less heat soak. LOL

@phate can you do a log with the same tune and run it through Virtual Dyno? I'd really like to see how close it would be to your Dyno runs.


Tapadatass

Actually, alochol as a fuel pulls massive amounts of heat from the air as it evaporates; an example of this is my dad's friend whom has an alcohol powered small block in his race car. After he does a run down the quarter, they pop his hood and put their drinks on his frosted over intake manifold.

I have mine at 14-16% running ~E40-45. Sounds like everyone is responding in a very similar manner.

Did I mention that this thread is made of pure WIN? :popcorn:

Of course. That is one reason why I want to get a non-dyno pull to post.

Just to give you an idea about heat absorption, running E85 absorbs almost 3 times as much heat as a typical WMI setup (offsetting AFR by ~.5). The amount of heat absorbed is ridiculous. That's all heat absorption before combustion :)

We can run through some hypothetical scenarios to show this. The math is fairly straight forward, and should give us a good approximation.

Yep, by my calcs running E40 results in a little over 2x the latent heat of evaporation of gas considering the increased volumetric flow coupled with the higher latent heat of evaporation from the ethanol.

This naturally means way cooler cylinder temps prior to the spark event.

Yeah, here are the latent heat values for gas/eth/meth for everyone:

Gas: 900 btu/gal
Ethanol: 2,378 btu/gal
Methanol: 3,340 btu/gal

This coupled with the increased octane rating is the entire benefit of running alcohol. Cooler cylinder temps make BATs less important and knock less likely, the higher octane even further increases the resistance to detonation and allows for a fuck ton of timing.

Right.....But cooler = stiffer nipples

Not to thread jack, but see the linked post for my current e85 mix update.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...ml#post1016018

The other massive benefit is ethanol is ~35% oxygen by weight. On E85 this is reduced somewhat, but still significant especially for a system (like a stock k04) that is airflow limited.

Doesn't help the folks that are already maxing the stock injectors though.


Zigatapatalka

All i have to say is...


WTB fall weather for winning BAT's!

The benefit of lower BATs that you don't get with E85 is the cooler (and therefore denser) air charge. For that reason I would like to run a small amount of 100% meth (don't need H2O for knock prevention with E85).


Tapadatass

The idea is that gasoline is much more sensitive to BATs compared to E85. I would say that in a gas powered car - WMI and good intercooling are essential. If you run E85, the cooling requirements significantly drop ... so a stock TMIC will do.

Further, E85 is actually less sensitive to timing that is not at MBT. You will lose more power per degree of timing away from MBT on gas compared to E85.

If you really want to increase the efficiency of the turbo, inject WMI before the turbo inlet. Yes, it will wear your compressor blades over time but it will make the K04 grow a little :)

Damn phate, nice job on the tune, and the mazdaspeed breakthrough! What was the leanest afr you could run without an increase in power?

Where did you get those numbers? My stuff says

Gas: 150btu/gal
E85: 359btu/gal
Methanol: 503btu/gal

Regarding the burn rates which are specific to AFR, but the percentages are comparable at similar lambda values:

Pump: 34ms
E85: 38ms

Thus E85 is ~12% slower than gasoline, requiring 12% more time/spark advance. At 6500rpm, assuming gasoline was at 15* "comparable" timing for E85 would be 19* seeing as you went well beyond that, maybe we really are knock limited in gasoline more than I thought.



Zigatapatalka

This sounds like a fun idea! LOL

I didn't lean it out any further than the .86l tune. There were no significant gains/losses when I leaned it out, so I didn't test it any further. You may be able to lean it out further, though, without a drop in power. That could increase the headroom for the injectors...but at the possible expense of increased combustion temps, egt's, valves, etc?


The latent heat capacity comes from "Alcohols: A Technical Assessment of Their Application as Motor Fuels," API Publication No. 4261, July 1976. I posted a link to a site containing "Properties of Fuels" a few pages back, and this was their reference.

This also varies from car to car. I have seen cars run happily at 17 degrees on gas. Anyone want to try 20* advance on gas at redline?

I start knocking at 10* so no, lol


Zigatapatalka

I have to say it.

Happy dyno is Happy dyno :shocked:

haha

good shit.