Something is wrong in the tune, it must be. I am on 4 gallons of E85 to 12 gallons of 93 and I am flowing more air than your car is. I have stock motor with bolt ons, stock turbo.

Plug gap?
Maf scaling.....

you cant' have real KR on that much corn....so you have a few things to consider in this order

1) something is lose in the bay causing the knock [ seen this about 5 times now and is typically IC or DP piping]
2) crank angle sensor is mis-aligned [seen this once before] although on corn it would have to be waaaay off
3) KR sensor is lose or failing [seen this twice now]
4) timing chain is lose [remove oil cap when cold and see if there is any play when you push down on it]
4) motor is mis-timed [typically only on a built motor]

rinse and repeat until KR is gone.

edit: oh and injector seals poping can be registered as KR if you haven't upgraded...does the KR occur at maximum torque?

In betting on plug gaps or loose KR sensor....maybe Ic piping

MSF cheerleader hat ON! @Tomas... don't give up just yet man. Let a couple of the guys throw their 2 cents in there. Bewsted and Dano already threw some good stuff in.

@ 20 psi, your calculated load should be well into the 2's with a properly scaled maf.

Depending on the existing octane in the tank besides the e85, I would try richening (actual word?) the mixture (i.e. target afr's in the high 11's and see what happens).

12.0-12.2 is good afrs for the mixture ur running

I'm at 12.2 on 4.5 gallons. Works fine. I noticed in the logs the guy posted that there are numerous instances of .35KR...and each time .35 is present AFRs remain stable and timing isn't pulled. At .7 timing was pulled.

We could argue afr all day, but there could be a significant difference with gasoline quality in Tomas's area.

Regardless, there is an issue with the maf curve.

Calculated load should be well into the 2's.

Great to see you posting again Bewsted :smlove2:.

What are you using for your Knock Offset table? If you are still using stock values then that is the first thing to adjust.

What values do you use for the knock offset table for an E85 mix and why? Curious if I need to change mine too.

I have been using the following:


It really cleaned up most of the random KR above 5750 RPMs without excessively desensitizing the knock sensor.

Can you explain how this tables functions exactly? It isn't discussed in the ATR helpfile. Some of the values are the same as mine and some of your values are lower...what does the lower values do? Make the BS ghost knock go away?

Higher number = more filtering

So I have increased my top end values from the stock 0.8 to the current 1.1 to filter out the random (believed to be fake, likely due to engine noise) knock that people typically see when lifting the knock sensor's active range above the stock 5750 RPMs setting.

Ahh, ok cool thank you :)

The only other thing I would add is to incrementally increase until you either reach my values or your random KR goes away. You might not need as much as me and less is definitely safer.

I cannot vouch for anything above 1.1 being safe; however, DJ has mentioned going to 1.2 on some people's tunes to get the desired effect.

out of curiousity, i forget what exactly i have changed in the knock tables bc i did it a while ago, i know its the numbers u suggested like from 640 down to 200, any chance u can discuss, decay mag a, decay ,ag b, decay rate a-b, and the knock multiplier? just looking for some knowledge

Decay magnitude tables define the step size the KR comes down in once knock is no longer detected. The table is in units of °.

Decay rate defines the time between the steps. The table is in units of milliseconds.

No clue on the multiplier table and thus mine is stock.


So say you have a signal from the knock sensor that results in the ECU pulling 1.4° KR briefly as you rev past 4000 RPMs and then the sensor hears nothing a fraction of a second later. The ECU doesn't just drop to 0° KR, but holds at the 1.4° for the decay rate time period and then steps down by the Decay Magnitude amount . This is repeated until the KR is back to 0° or additional knock is detected.

The math would be as follows:
1.4° - 0.35° = 1.05°, then 1.05° - 0.35° = 0.7°, then 0.7° - 0.35° = 0.35°, and finally 0.35° -0.35° = 0°

And with the stock decay rate of 640 milliseconds, this would take 2.56 seconds to complete, during which time you might have gone through ~2000 RPMs with extra KR for no good reason.

Essentially, you will be carrying unnecessary KR for most of the pull with the stock 640 ms decay rate so it is recommended to only have 150-200 in this table so the KR is more restricted to the region where the actual knock was sensed by the sensor.

@cld12pk2go thank you very much, good stuff

ouch...only hitting 293 g/s with a 3071? Bad tune? At least your in the best place for help.

Let me thank you all for this thread yet again. I would not have made the switch had it not been for you crazy bastards testing the limits of our platform. I removed the WMI and retuned my car on 100% E85 over the past few days. I'm at a point where I'd like to share and get some ideas if I have left anything on the table.

I attached my latest WOT log. Please let me know if you see anything I could improve on as I'm planning to take my car to get some 1/4 mile runs on Wednesday. Last time out I ran 106.8mph with the stock rubber workin' a 2.4 60ft. 1st and 2nd gear were worthless so I had to granny shift and cruise into the middle of 3rd before I was WOT. My tune was not as good on the WMI with 2-3PSI less boost and timing about 5-6 degrees off. This time around I have drag radials and the DA changed from 2100ft to around 140ft as of this morning. The temps were over 90 degrees and its expected to be in the upper 60s.

I'm hoping for 109-110mph which I think is possible giving the power difference between my last time out.

Edit: That VD pic was from the same log as attached. It was with me and my car pool buddy. About 400lbs of lard added to car during the 4th gear pull with a full tank of E85.

Spend an hour or two on a dyno and throw some more timing at it. I would say you have room to grow over the entire rpm range :)

Thanks Phate, I didn't want to go to far without a dyno. After I get back from the track I think i'll schedule a few hours of dyno time to play with timing changes.

I actually didn't look at the log and finkle is correct, your load values are waaaaay too low.

1) does your Actual AFR match commanded? At a quick glance I would say your MAF is seriously off, causing calculated load to me much lower than it should be.

2) I think you may have a boost leak....your WGDC is running 99% at 3K to reach 6PSI and runs in the 90+ % almost the entire run...that turbo could make 25 + psi at 99DC

3) the .35 KR can be completely ignored and you can see the ECU makes no alterations to compensate for it. only the .7 KR will trigger a response but 7* of timing at 5K should do nothing to trigger KR.

seeing multiple logs to see where the KR occurs would be good but I am still of the opinion its the sensor or something lose in the engine bay.

I would fix the boost leak and see where things are from there.

Thanks for all the help. KR goes completely away if I turn down the load by 6 points across each TRL table past 3K rpm. That pretty much eliminates loose sensor, injector seals, or any other hardware malfunction I would say. The KR that happens after accel pedal goes below 99 is due to the ferramic clutch disc after I disengage it when shifting gears I think. Those high bleeps are not real KR, but the 0.35 / 0.4 / 1.75 and so on that happens while in boost in streaks should be real. I suppose?

I am running ITV22s gaped at .028 IIRC.
I am ALSO running 70/30 meth with a D05 nozzle.
Bolt ons (ETS TMIC - dp-tp-sri-ti)

Here are a few logs of what I am talking about.

12.6 to 12.7 AFR with 5 pints lower load
Almost no KR. Seen more with richer mixtures

Attachment 44105

This one has a 11.9 AFR, 5 points higher load and 1 deg higher timing past 6K rpm. Again KR a little over 1 after about 5.8K rpm.

Attachment 44106


And as the log shows that I posted in my previous post, that log has 5 points higher load- lower BAT's and 12.0-12.2 AFR.
KR of 1.75 present on 4th gear after 6K rpm.

I also need to add that I always try to log pulls going from low RPMs in 3rd gear going to red line in 3rd, 4th and then up to about 5.5K rpm in 5fth. I need a map that will perform consistently for road race courses. A clean 4th gear pull does not do me any good. The tune needs to be clean shifting gears to red line time after time consecutively in every gear.

EDIT: Regarding my load values - I am not really that concerned about the mass airflow numbers. My fuel trims could be a little of. I use the g/s as a reference to compare maps. My main concern is that I should be able to run 20 psi of boost to red line at more than 10 deg's of timing on 4/8 E85 according to everything I've read here but I can't. No matter what AFR I use.

Cld12pk suggestions to adjust the KR sensor offset seem plausible but I don't want to do that just yet. There are plenty of people running stock offset and more than 14 deg of timing ad red line on BT's.

EDIT#2: My WGDC are high because of my wimpey stock ATP 8 psi wastegate spring. A tiny fart of boost will cause it to crack open. I am running a 3 port solenoid in interrupt mode. No boost leaks. That is something I check regularly.

well if you lower load and KR goes away that can still be two things...it was real KR [in this case with all the meth and corn I am 100% sure it is not real] or your seals were popping and with lower load thus cylinder pressure they are not popping anymore.

I understand what your end result needs to be but you need to get the tune completed on a 4th gear log then try some multi gear logs and see the results.

since this isn't an E85 issue maybe you could start a thread and we can diagnose from there.

IMO you do indeed have a boost leak.

*cough* new Deatschwerks DW65c 100% drop in ITFP is E85 capable *cough*

link???

specs??

Even on straight E85, I get the typical .35/.7/1.05° KR readings - sometimes they get drug out for multiple lines in the data logs. My plugs show no sign of detonation. Point of that story: Your kr is likely not real detonation.

Pull your plugs to check it. If the plugs have been in for a while, grab a new set, run them for a few pulls and check them.

Also, the "throttle-lift" kr is normal for almost every one of these cars.

Your 90%+ WGDC is a concern, though. I would check the bpv, as dano said.

So is ours, and it does a fine job.

Quick suggestion:

One of the things that I see is a 4 degree jump from 3500 - 4000 rpms.

Believe it or not, adding a degree @ 3500 rpms may knock that small spook kr out in that range.

Ok. I am going to try a few things and do some checks and come back to report.
May be the KR is not real after all. I'll do a compression check while I check the plugs and also do another boost leak test. Before I get an aftermarket BPV I would get a 14 psi spring wastegate actuator though. If none of this does it I'll increase the Knock offset to 1.1 at higher RPMs.

dubbafrush/erich/kmac are all running 500+ on stock ITFP. go ahead and waste some more money on useless stuff lol

If your stocker does take a shit it'll probably be cheaper than the OEM. All anyone is saying is that there's an alternative to the stocker that's E85 capable and direct fit.

What?! you are running the stock BPV that is a POS on the K04?

ok def start out with a real BPV :)

that thing is constantly leaking and why your boost is all over the place as is WGDC

standard boost leak test will NOT show a BPV leak as it is all the same circuit.

I bet all of your issues will go away with the BPV fixed...AF...g/s...boost.....KR

all fixed with one part.

oh and your call will start hauling ass!!!!!

So true, recently I was seeing high wgdc to hit boost targets, then my afr started going all over the place. So I buy a new BPV, and sure enough. Stable afr and waaaaay lower wgdc to hit boost.

Pbbt. I hit 21 PSI with the stock BPV just fine.


Tapadatass

is there a point here?

if you do the math with Tomas's issues it does point to BPV leaking.

my stocker leaked with my K04....jussayin

I'm not saying it can't leak; I'm just saying it's not guaranteed to leak.

The stock BPV is a good design and there is no need to replace it unless you're sure it's faulty.

Tomas: see if you can swap BPV's with someone locally who has a known good unit and see if that cures your issues.


Tapadatass

Either swap it with someone locally, or just test it by plugging the bottom reference port. Takes all of 10 minutes to test.

I ran equal boost on the K04 and never had a problem. But I am willing to test it out and get a Forge or whatever if needed.

So I plug the reference port, do a pull, and see if I can get commanded boost or how does this test work? So if the BPV is bad I should be getting the same WGDC and boost as now? And if I replace it with a good one my WGDC should drop dramatically?

Hmmmm. I don't know. I know of other people running an EBC in interrupt with WGDC in the high 90s with low WG spring pressures. I really think it's the spring but hey, I am always up to testing shit out.

It's a simple and cheap test. No need to throw parts at the car until you figure out what the problem actually is.


Tapadatass