The suspense is killing me bro!

So here's my cold start, this morning. Car sat >12 hours (I know cause I slept for 12 hours :) ). Temp in my garage is ~45° in the mornings.


There is a definite suction sound which is high pitched if i quickly stab the gas, but no mechanical 'chirp' from the hpfp.

@Enki @rfinkle2

[Video taken and uploaded by my new sweet ass Galaxy Nexus.]

Okay, so I finally had some free time today (kids, don't grow up and become engineers if you value social lives and sleeping). I looked on McMaster-Carr's site, and found some Double-Seal O-rings (the style used in the HPFP to seal around the pump piston).

McMaster-Carr

Looking on eFunda:

eFunda: O-Ring Materials Compatibile with Chemical Gasoline, Automotive

Buna-N is compatible with both gasoline and Ethanol.

Based on my measurements, I'm going with 3/32" width 1/4" ID 7/16" OD Buna-N and try it out. If it works, I'll have plenty for others to use (the package quantity is 100).

P/N 90025K441


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...eed3/018-1.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...Speed3/017.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...eed3/016-1.jpg

Very cool!!!

2 pumps for sale

mazdaspeed 3

How did you get the rings out? With a pick?

Thanks for doing the research silvapain.

A jewelers screwdriver. A pick would work well, too.

Hey Daniel, let me know how much ya want for a few of them there oringers. Figure when I pul the pump to inspect it might as well replace the seal. Thanks!

@silvapain

MIght as well make that 2 of us Daniel, I'll take a few as well.

Shoot me your address via PM guys. When they come in and I confirm they will work, I'll mail them out to you.

It was only about $7 for a pack of 100.


Tapadatass

I'll be PMing you when I order my pump internals, but I probably need to go ahead and buy another MS6 first.

Count me in!

@silvapain ill take a few as well please.

i wouldn't mind getting some as well for when i do get hpfp internals and go full e...

I live by this guy so you could double up some and i can grab some from @mrmonk7663

I pulled the oring in question out of my pump last time I had the pump totally off the car (couple days ago) and it looked perfect. Count me in anyways, though; still having issues.

Late to the orgy... but i brought some toys.



These are probably close to MBT, even on k04 imo. I wouldn't push any further without being on a dyno. And from some of the experiments i've seen lately, i'm kinda coming to the conclusion that a real dyno is the only way to do this. V-dyno just isn't accurate enough.

These just seem waaaaay too high, 2.5* higher than i'm comfortable with at 5500 rpm, all the way down to 3+ * more at 4k-4500...

I've dialed in timing on quite a few cars on the dyno, many with e85 mixes and various other fuels.... and i've never gotten close to these numbers on anything bigger than a k04 man. And even on a k04, these would be aggressive values IMHO. I still think you were beyond MBT and stressing out the rods. Also, Jason mentioned you had seen misfire cel's? Tis true? If so, i wonder if you were down on compression in one cylinder from a bent rod. I know you said the clutch pedal didn't vibe.. but not sure if vibes always accompany bent rods.

I think you'll be more than safe on the new motor with proper timing.

I would beg to differ. 4 gallons of eth probably brings the octane up to near 100 or more. With that much octane, it takes some seriously severe conditions to make a motor "ping" and trigger KR. You could easily be doing damage without KR with too much timing.

These scare the shit out of me too. Power will "plateau" beyond MBT for several degrees. and even though your not seeing a "drop" in power, your still beyond MBT. And again, i think V-dyno just isn't accurate enough to be used for something as critical as timing. I'm glad your running OTS timing now with the new intake, cause the values above make me cringe worse than Keith's, lol.

Well worth the money to verify it on a dyno man. I know your back to lower values and we've already talked, i'm just typing this for anyone else's eyes.

IMHO (and it is indeed a humble opinion), timing should be dialed in on a real dyno. If you know what your doing, you can get extremely close in 3-4 pulls with a proper starting point, and it would only cost like $60-120 depending on shop rates. Sounds cheap when you consider the alternative.

I doubt Keith ever knocked (possibly when he saw 3* of KR, but even then KR isn't real knock, it's avoided knock). His timing simply resulted in a piston pushing up, into an explosion pushing down. His peak cylinder pressure was probably BTDC, or right around there. And with his airflow and power level, that's a significant amount of stress.

I agree, you definitely cannot tune timing off a knock sensor with any amount of e85 mix, at least i would frown upon it. Shoot, i don't even like going past what i've established as "proper safe timing" with meth injection. Once i've reached the values i feel are accurate for that power level, i won't go further unless the guy wants to get on a dyno.

KR with e85 is a sign that something is amiss. Your essentially running race gas. Shit shouldn't knock with proper timing.




Sorry if i sound like a broken record in the post, i was just over a week behind in the thread and multi-quoted things that jumped out, but i feel like this is a very important issue. Cars don't blow up from detonation on e85, they blow up from being over stressed... This is why Keith's car just suddenly "let go". And hopefully this is kinda a heads up to some of the other people playing with e85.

More timing doesn't always result in more power... and to push the envelope without establishing mbt on a dyno is just reckless. If you don't wanna shell out $ for a dyno, then just stick with proven conservative values and don't get greedy.

For meth or e85 mix maps and bigger turbos, i generally don't like to exceed ~8* @ 4500rpm, ~11-12* @ 5500rpm, and ~18-19* @ 6500 rpm.... interpolated between while "street / e tuning". Once on a dyno, we'll feel our way a bit further, but 9 times out of 10, your only like a 1-2 degrees, at most, away from MBT.



Keith, i'll look for those pistons tonight. I have a bunch of stuff i need to ship out. Text or email me your address man :)

Dano's curve is about a * less than Evan's on 50/50 e85 (as posted earlier in this thread and Xlt_66's), and I have to assume Evan is not past mbt.

I certainly listen / read when you type, but I've seen varying octane ratings for e85, and I thought 4 gallons was a ways away from 100 octane.

I thought (assuming e85 is 105 octane and a 16 gallon fuel tank), that you would be @ roughly 97 octane, although arguing what octane we are @ isn't going to get us anywhere.

Wow, great info! I wonder if I did have a bent rod and that's where the misfire came from? It was the multiple cylinder misfire code (if that matters). I also got the crankshaft code... Iirc the codes were 300 and 335... They only came up when starting the car, and now that I think about it, it happened more near the end and not just on cold starts... If that means anything

XLT is evan, but he's running a k04 still... and a sick one at that. It all plays a role.


And it's funny, but e85 mixes actually have a higher octane than 100% e85. My guess is that the other 15% used for e85 is absolute trash with dismal octane... When you mix a few gallons of e85 with premium gas, the octane is considerably higher.

Super skater made a thread with lots of snippets of e85 data. The octanes are posted in there. If i were half the msf ninja you were, i'd have a link, but i'm not lol.



I'm just trying to reiterate one of the most common pitfalls with e85. In the early days of this thread, many of us stressed the fact that a dyno is necessary for mbt, bla bla bla.... and from what i'm seeing lately, it's not really being adhered to. Lots of people just shooting from the hips and guessing at their timing. Saying things like, "well, he's running this much, so i should be able to do that or maybe a lil bit more..." etc.

If we were gonna be scientific about it, we'd start a thread cataloging MBT for various setups. But as i recall, Phate and evan are the only one's who got some hard data... and both are k04s (and not even fully bolted iirc).


I'm honestly just trying to look out for people.

Nothing wrong w being cautious, ESP in light of recent events. One thing my noob ass didn't consider when looking at other E85 timing curves was the difference in cyl pressure with varying turbo sizes. I don't really consider a GT28 a big turbo but it is bigger than a K04 and all other things being equal, should run less timing than a K04 car.

The power "plateau" effect may be what I was experiencing when working on my curve in VD so when I get back on the juice I'll start over with Dustin's suggested values and shop around for a dyno if I care to go further. The shop I used before is long gone and they are very scarce around here.

Thanks for the comments brotha DJ

I understand that, and am as concerned about the overall community as you are (arguably).

I am going to schedule dyno time asap, and will put up my findings to the proposed database as well.

Here, i'm pulling a finkle ninja post link move:



From this sticky:
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...uel-faq-92889/

I know where you found that, between Skater's "nator bang bus" thread and his latest "how much can you stick in one twat thread".

Beat me to it.

Lol... not often i get to ninja the ninja.

so check it out. I've been tuning timing with an egt gauge. Are you saying this is not an effective tool in finding MBT? I'm maxing at 1700*F

btw my timing from 3k to 7k is as follows...
3 6 8 10.5 12.5 14.5 16 17 18

Yes, it is absolutely effective if you know what you're looking for and it's before the turbo.

What we're saying is that a dyno is the simplest and most effective way to make sure everything is absolutely solid, and no unintended risks are taken.

When I went past MBT on the dyno, my power plateaud with a .5-1° addition, as it should. I then went another .5° or 1° beyond the point where it plateaud (knowing the risk) and saw power drop off. The difference in power was less than 2hp over the entire curve. The timing curve I posted (and run) was something like .5° less than where I saw the last addition of power. Meaning I have tested 1-2° beyond that curve (scary). There's no way in hell I would trust an EGT gauge or virtual dyno to show me that difference.

The point here, no matter the mix level, is that due caution is needed. We DO NOT have enough data to say what is good or bad. It sounds like Evan and I have the only extensive dyno tested data, and that is not enough. Mazdafreak's car (straight E85) was looking to run a very similar timing curve to mine, but he got spark blowout before we could finish things up (still made nasty power :) ).


PS - The E85 fuel FAQ is only somewhat relevant, since we are direct injected. The latent heat capacity has a HUGE effect on effective octane in a DI engine. Most info you find on the interweb is for port injection, and is not always accurate for us. So thinking of it as 100 or 105 or whatever is not totally accurate, from my understanding. It is much, much higher for us...I've digressed. We know we have enough octane to go beyond MBT without knock in most situations.

I've got solid data on several local BT setups too... one of which was mfquints making ~440 whp uncorrected. And his timing was right in line with the "typical" values i posted above. Lower power cars will typically be able to run more timing. Mfquint was running about 2.5 gal mix and LOTS of meth.

I'm liking the idea of a MBT thread, similar to our compression test thread, where people only post up timing curves, mods, and dyno charts showing that they were indeed at MBT.

This would be a great way to establish typical timing values.

since you and phate are the ones with the data......and add a linky here please. :)

edit:....in your spare time of course [no pun intended] lol

But people have to spend money for dyno time if they do that!!!

LOL, agreed, I shall start right meow.

For your above timing curve, is this for someone fully bolted running ~25 PSI on something like a GT3076? I am just trying to understand the general power level where that appears to be MBT...



I have recently been running the following (2500-7000 RPMs), which is 2° less from 3k-7k than I ran with the K04 on E50:

But I haven't really been able to push my turbo yet (only 18-19 PSI up top) due to the load limit V2™ coupled with my not having an AP for the last 2 weeks.


I am starting to increase boost now with a Boost Targeting logic map and have loaded the following to be a bit more conservative...

Those values are what i feel comfortable "e tuning" to without a dyno on most bigger turbos (30r's typically, but not solely), usually flowing around 400 g/s. I'll typically see another 1 to 2 degrees more for MBT on some local ATP turbos making anywhere from 350-380 whp uncorrected. And I'll have to check, but i think those values pretty much were MBT on mfquint's car making ~440whp uncorrected.

all this chit got me thinking so I went out and ran a compression check and looks like I am in good shape with no bent rods...lol

@50K miles..car was warm to hot for this one so guess why the 180s

1=180
2=175
3=180
4=178

Results from my 28K miles test

1=175
2=174
3=175
4=175

im just taking it slow and easy and enjoying the benefits of this magical e85. my car loves it and if i had to go back to regular 91 oct id probably stock out my car and sell it.

O-rings came in. The size I ordered won't work; they are just a little too thick. After significant effort I was able to get the piston in the housing, but after just a couple pumps by hand I took it back out and there was significant wear on the O-ring. I need to look on McMaster-Carr for a smaller size.

Comparison photos:

New on top, original on bottom
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...3/2dea66bc.jpg

New underneath original
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...3/df900bdc.jpg

New on right, original on left
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...3/352dd358.jpg

New in pump housing
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...3/d7caf76a.jpg


Tapadatass

Jealousy.
I'm going to hunt you down, stab you, and take your car (which runs fine on e85).

I think @Bucker has some data as well. (to add to the database)

Quick q (also subbing to this thread):

Since e85 raises the knock threshold so high, does that mean the engine's greatest tool to save itself from blowing up (KR monitoring) is lost? That means tuning for e85 now with cold temps might be too optimistic for summer temps?

Not sure if the cooling effects of e85 will make it non-relevant, but it's something I was wondering.