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-   MazdaSpeed 3/6 - E85 Fueling (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f567/)
-   -   E85 Discussion - HPFP lubrication and Flow issues (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f567/e85-discussion-hpfp-lubrication-flow-issues-79030/)

forcedinduktion 10-24-2012 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lito37 (Post 1697705)
I being running 4gl 93 to 5.5gl e85 for 2 month now with no problem. I'm getting 24 to 27 mpg with cobb spice tune +5 lambda and 26 to 29mpg with 93 tune +10 Lambda. Base line Mpg 31.9 on 93. I was planing to run for 3 month but went for a ride with my wife yesterday and 280 miles later need to put gas and there were no e85 close to were I was at, so i fill up with 93.:sorry: I will give it and other 3 month and i will take apart my full pump and post some pics.

mods: bsd, cork sport cai, vtcs delete, egr delete, cats delete, pcv disconnected from intake manifold and Y of the turbo intake side with catch can.
I don't think its necessary for you to take apart your pump at that concentraion. I've been on 50/50 for 7k now and it still holds FP since the day I started.

Constantin 11-25-2012 01:14 PM
Finally finished reading the ENTIRE thread. Post by post!

First of all I want to give BIG thanks to @phate; for starting all this. And for everybody else who is participating in this endeavor!!!

After my 93 octane tune is done and I dyno the car (December 15th) I will start running E85. I have two E85 gas station not far from my house, so 100% E85 is very possible.

----------------------

I am not sure if any summary was made base on this (and other) E85 threads. If not, I am willing to help you guys out. It will be nice to have one document (similar to Abilor's guide) explaining E85 from start to "finish". I can help with putting this together. The info though will be coming from the gurus on here :)

----------------------

No to log ago I have been given the link to this thread:

E85 Specific Fuel Pumps are ready for sale.

HPFP UPGRADE claims they have E85 computable FP. Since there was no reply regarding testing 100% E85 I have emailed them about it.

Here is what I got so far:

Quote:
Yes we have ran 100% E85 with additives on our new fuel pump.
I have emailed them back requesting solid testing data from their test cars. I have followed up few time, but got no solid response, yet.

Did anybody tried to running their HPFP with 100% E85?

boostdmazda3 11-25-2012 01:18 PM
people run into issues running 100%. If you have balls of steel go for it. Otherwise run 50/50 mix. You can run a 3 gallon mix like everyone else does and still see significant gains without any harmful side effects like the black death.

SarcasticOne 11-25-2012 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constantin (Post 1758803)
Finally finished reading the ENTIRE thread. Post by post!

First of all I want to give BIG thanks to @phate; for starting all this. And for everybody else who is participating in this endeavor!!!

After my 93 octane tune is done and I dyno the car (December 15th) I will start running E85. I have two E85 gas station not far from my house, so 100% E85 is very possible.

----------------------

I am not sure if any summary was made base on this (and other) E85 threads. If not, I am willing to help you guys out. It will be nice to have one document (similar to Abilor's guide) explaining E85 from start to "finish". I can help with putting this together. The info though will be coming from the gurus on here :)

----------------------

No to log ago I have been given the link to this thread:

E85 Specific Fuel Pumps are ready for sale.

HPFP UPGRADE claims they have E85 computable FP. Since there was no reply regarding testing 100% E85 I have emailed them about it.

Here is what I got so far:



I have emailed them back requesting solid testing data from their test cars. I have followed up few time, but got no solid response, yet.

Did anybody tried to running their HPFP with 100% E85?
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...d.php?t=127238

Response isn't a happy one :p

phate 11-26-2012 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constantin (Post 1758803)
I am not sure if any summary was made base on this (and other) E85 threads. If not, I am willing to help you guys out. It will be nice to have one document (similar to Abilor's guide) explaining E85 from start to "finish". I can help with putting this together. The info though will be coming from the gurus on here :)
I think it's about time we make our own FAQ, I've been considering doing this for quite some time. The FAQ from nasioc, stickied in this section, is inaccurate or outdated for some of the information. None of it pertains to DI or our cars specifically, and we have a number of issues specific to us.

If I have some time, I'll start putting together information and references to outside information and relevant discussions on this site. We have covered a hell of a lot about E85 in the past two years, so it will take some time. Please feel free to mention anything specific you would like covered and I'll make sure it's in there.

4DRHTRD 11-26-2012 01:30 PM
You guys keep up the good work, I'm following in your footsteps for my Ecoboost V6 Flex. I'm working out the way to at least run 50/50 but would prefer to run full E85 or E98 soon.

boostdmazda3 11-26-2012 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DRHTRD (Post 1760451)
You guys keep up the good work, I'm following in your footsteps for my Ecoboost V6 Flex. I'm working out the way to at least run 50/50 but would prefer to run full E85 or E98 soon.
E98? Sounds interesting.

Constantin 11-27-2012 07:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phate (Post 1760332)
I think it's about time we make our own FAQ, I've been considering doing this for quite some time. The FAQ from nasioc, stickied in this section, is inaccurate or outdated for some of the information. None of it pertains to DI or our cars specifically, and we have a number of issues specific to us.

If I have some time, I'll start putting together information and references to outside information and relevant discussions on this site. We have covered a hell of a lot about E85 in the past two years, so it will take some time. Please feel free to mention anything specific you would like covered and I'll make sure it's in there.
If you want you can send me raw stuff and I will try to get in organized. We can have one online doc shared and build on it. That was when it is done we can have a PDF ready to go.

We can add @Enki;'s oil research and other useful info into it as well.

Enki 11-28-2012 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phate (Post 1760332)
I think it's about time we make our own FAQ, I've been considering doing this for quite some time. The FAQ from nasioc, stickied in this section, is inaccurate or outdated for some of the information. None of it pertains to DI or our cars specifically, and we have a number of issues specific to us.

If I have some time, I'll start putting together information and references to outside information and relevant discussions on this site. We have covered a hell of a lot about E85 in the past two years, so it will take some time. Please feel free to mention anything specific you would like covered and I'll make sure it's in there.
This would be awesome; I'd do it, but seeing as how I'll be...pursuing other projects here shortly, it really isn't feasible at the moment.

Haltech 11-28-2012 01:47 AM
You could easily spend a few days sorting through threads to come up with understanding E use on this car. An official document would be extremely helpful.

Haltech 11-28-2012 01:53 AM
Here we go...our thread is making its rounds... Still some ignorant fuckheads out there to boot:

E-85 users thread - Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3479030

http://golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3479012

phate 11-28-2012 08:21 AM
I finished a project last night, so I'll begin work on this.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

El_Diablo 11-28-2012 10:08 AM
Just thought I would throw this out there, not sure I can even get it around here but is anyone running E20? Seems like the easy solution to get some of the benifits with no losses in reliability.

phate 11-28-2012 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Diablo (Post 1764103)
Just thought I would throw this out there, not sure I can even get it around here but is anyone running E20? Seems like the easy solution to get some of the benifits with no losses in reliability.
Yep, that's about the minimum you need to remove knock limitations.

El_Diablo 11-28-2012 10:21 AM
To bad there usually isnt to much information on where to get it as most try to avoid it....

I dont really want to tune for an E85 mix as my wife will likely take this car every so often after our daughter is born. Kinda wish they sold an E30 or E50 out of the pump, lol.

silvapain 11-28-2012 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Diablo (Post 1764128)
To bad there usually isnt to much information on where to get it as most try to avoid it....

I dont really want to tune for an E85 mix as my wife will likely take this car every so often after our daughter is born. Kinda wish they sold an E30 or E50 out of the pump, lol.
It's very rare, but some places do sell E50. I have seen E50 pumps in Bloomington, IL for example.


Tapadatass

El_Diablo 11-28-2012 10:57 AM
Why doesn't anyone have a good database on this? A lot of the E85 websites ONLY list E85 and alternative fuels.... I really wish they would/could include all ethonal fuel blend products. :banghead:

Might be time to get something together in the regional NATOR sections such as some have already started to do.

forcedinduktion 11-28-2012 11:01 AM
Gonna leave it to the MSF folk to do all the heavy lifting...

El_Diablo 11-28-2012 11:43 AM
I understand that.... Thinking about starting a list myself if i ever get a chance!

fooqr 11-28-2012 11:54 AM
Try googling "ethanol blender pumps" and one of the first links has a map interface to gas stations where you can choose your own concentration of ethanol. They're all in the corn belt.

El_Diablo 11-28-2012 12:39 PM
Awesome, aparently the e85 pump near me is a blend station? Didn't even know those existed!

metallemur 11-28-2012 05:44 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Saw an E30 pump driving through south western Minnesota in the summer. It was a Cenex in a small town in the middle of nowhere with corn fields all around. E85 was also cheap.

Attachment 83313

Ziggo 11-28-2012 09:39 PM
My only concern with the E30 out of the pump is that it's probably 70% rat piss gasoline. Probably not on par with an equivalent E85/87oct mix, let alone E85/93. Certainly handy though, I am just cautioning against running a map designed for a manual mix with the pump mix with not re examining timing.

Zigatapatalka

Dano 11-28-2012 09:45 PM
Word


Tappin

RichieRichness 11-29-2012 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggo (Post 1765273)
My only concern with the E30 out of the pump is that it's probably 70% rat piss gasoline. Probably not on par with an equivalent E85/87oct mix, let alone E85/93. Certainly handy though, I am just cautioning against running a map designed for a manual mix with the pump mix with not re examining timing.

Zigatapatalka
I agree however, I remember reading that many gas stations that offer different E options have pretty advanced pumping systems... they actually mix the fuel from two sources before entering your vehicle.

Constantin 12-21-2012 04:09 PM
Update from John (HPFPupgrade.com).

I have asked John what is the point in selling E85 HPFP for 50/50 mix when there are may people here running 50/50 mix without or with very minimal issues. Here is what he said:

Quote:
Yes, but 50/50 is not sufficient. We have seen wear from running 50/50 blends and that is why we have made a specific pump for E85 blends.

Blends will remove .0001 to .00005 pump piston material over 6 -12 months. We have measured this material loss with air gauges as well as precision hand tools. You will start to see several failures from AT and KMD over the next two years on customers running E85 blends. Now these failures will not be pump seizures, it will be a loss of overall pressure or a drop in pump pressure from previous datalogs. Then the pumps will not be able to reach target pressure. We have seen these failures, we have read about them and now we are starting to see them on the guys that have been running E85 blends for the last year.

This is why we had our fuel pumps treated with a propitiatory treatment that holds fuel at a microscopic level on the surface of the pump. This is also why we have a cross hatch in our sleeves with the E85 specific pump.
I don't know if that was discussed on MSF already, but it is quite interesting. Did anybody compare long term FP logs to see the trend of gradually loosing FP?

Also, John said they are working on a full E85 HPFP:

Quote:
We are working on making E85 only fuel pump, but we have to get the long term results back from testing.

TiGraySpeed6 12-21-2012 04:17 PM
sounds like john.

magical mystery fancy shit, send me your money.
when it fails, it's installer error.

Constantin 12-21-2012 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 (Post 1802294)
sounds like john.

magical mystery fancy shit, send me your money.
when it fails, it's installer error.
Hahah... here is his last comment that I didn't post above

Quote:
With a lifetime warranty on our fuel pump we cannot have our E85 pumps failing after a year or two... they must last a lifetime.

Enki 12-21-2012 04:36 PM
Strange, this, considering my Autotechs have never seen but a tank or two of straight pump gas and look brand fucking new when clean.

TiGraySpeed6 12-21-2012 05:00 PM
yeah, and my old ass KMD's are still kicking ass
year on 93
year on e blend

pre-dating the great fail of '11

Enki 12-23-2012 10:02 PM
Best part is when I rebuild my pump, I use a little bit of oil for the o-rings but put the rest of it, including the internals back in dry.

That's right, bite the spill valve, Autotechs are going in dry.

cld12pk2go 12-26-2012 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constantin (Post 1802277)
Update from John (HPFPupgrade.com).

I have asked John what is the point in selling E85 HPFP for 50/50 mix when there are may people here running 50/50 mix without or with very minimal issues. Here is what he said:



I don't know if that was discussed on MSF already, but it is quite interesting. Did anybody compare long term FP logs to see the trend of gradually loosing FP?

Also, John said they are working on a full E85 HPFP:
I have been running E85 blends for about 1.5 years with no issues with pressure dropping...

burn813 12-26-2012 07:38 AM
I have also been running a blend of e85 anywhere from 2-6 gallons for over 2 yrs, on ptp internal no-less, with no issue

IshiKage 12-26-2012 07:43 AM
PTP internals and have been running Eth for over a year and no issues here.

h.h.sk1nny 12-26-2012 07:50 AM
I have had my kmd's in for about 2 years now. Much of that time has been on a 50/50 mix. When I pulled my fuel pump the other day (damn 100% e85 and retard, not a good combo) to inspect it/clean it, after that, it literally looked brand new still. There was not one wear mark or scratch on the thing! I was actually a little suprised.

superskaterxes 12-26-2012 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichieRichness (Post 1765917)
I agree however, I remember reading that many gas stations that offer different E options have pretty advanced pumping systems... they actually mix the fuel from two sources before entering your vehicle.
i think he was just talking about how the regular gasoline that they are using in the mix is just super poor quality.

Enki 12-28-2012 01:07 AM
Many gas stations simply stopped providing diesel.

Think about that for a minute.

ABolewski 02-11-2013 09:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enki (Post 1810489)
Many gas stations simply stopped providing diesel.

Think about that for a minute.
Alright I thought about it for over a month and desperately was hoping someone would respond and spell it out for me, but what are you talking about? Where did that come from?

silvapain 02-11-2013 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABolewski (Post 1889734)
Alright I thought about it for over a month and desperately was hoping someone would respond and spell it out for me, but what are you talking about? Where did that come from?
Instead of putting a new tank in underground to store Ethanol, gas stations used the existing tank they had used previously for diesel.

Enki 02-11-2013 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvapain (Post 1889848)
Instead of putting a new tank in underground to store Ethanol, gas stations used the existing tank they had used previously for diesel.
As fucking frightening as it is, this. ^^^^


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