Wrong address fail. Thinking of ordering internals for mine sometime soon to give more E85 a try.

MOAR e85 is lovely....once i finish this tank of 93...im back again bitches lol

I really wish someone would go quantify some of this e85 stuff on the dyno. When mica was on the rollers, we compared a 12.4 AFR pull with an 11.7 AFR pull, all else the same, and saw no appreciable difference in power.

I would love to see some factual data from the other e85'ers out there.

He was only running 2.5 gallons with wmi.

If someone wants to help fund some 93 octane vs race gas vs E85 dyno testing, my car can be the mule :P If we were really ambitious, we could do all of the above with WMI, as well.

Yea i was getting play by play...

I am going to hit the dyno in the next couple weeks if my move goes as planned.

MOAR E85

If you want a good dataset (well, 2 is better than 1), I will head down and meet up with phate. I need to get on the dyno sometime. Have to work out my wmi tune first though...

Incoming PM...

Where is said dyno @?
Maybe i will treck up there to enter this dyno day.

The dyno is located in Seneca, IL - Snowdance Enterprises. It's just south of I-80 and West of I-55.

If you guys are serious about getting a few cars on, I'll call them back to get things set up. They are a general repair shop and they said they don't use their dyno too often. I'm sure we could get it for a full day if we wanted.

My plan is to re-dyno as soon as the temps drop so I can get some decent load with the K04. Probably 6-8 weeks out...

wolly6973 and I should both be on the rollers Friday at this shop. We have similar bolt on parts, but he has meth. Should be a pretty good comparison between E85 & 93 w/meth.

Edit: having the internals sent to the wrong address turned out well. I just picked them up :D

I only brought the D05 nozzle with me, left the D07 at home. Wasn't planning on getting on the dyno just yet...

O well, it will be nice to know where I'm at.

@phate - could you bring a feeler gauge? need to double check the gap on my plugs...

Car is better :) Man, did I miss boost.

@wolly6973 - For sure, I plan on bringing my top box.

phate i would throw you a few bucks to do the testing. can we set a plan first with A/B/C testing @ X psi or w/e.

I am planning to hit the dyno since @driver311 is failing at getting on one.

Plan to make a pull on my 93 tune.

Then a pull on my E85 tune.

Then a adjusted pull with the E85 tune.

Crossing my fingers for some win LOL.

just like that with cool down between runs.

When you do your first adjusted E85 tune first leave the boost and timing alone and lean those AFs out to mid to high 12s to see if any power is made on AF alone. Apparently Dustin made none to speak of on Mica's pulls w 2.5 gallons of corn in the tank.

then go to work on the rest..K?

are you going to add the E85 between the 93 and E85 tunes?

Yeah, for sure. Let's get through Friday's session before we start the planning, though. If the difference between my car and wolly's car is insignificant, we may not want to do any further testing...[But I'm counting on there being a difference, lol.]

Just to add some fuel to the fire...

Quoted from...
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...tml#post992569

It would be nice to be able to have a tune for e85 and be able to throw some in when you really want to have extra power, like a track day or something.
That way you wouldn't have all the worries of meth leaking/running dry/no flow/etc...

I am going to go in on empty....Take a 5 gallon jug of 50/50 with me....Make a pull......Then add the 50/50.....

Thats the plan at least.


Well when dustin was here and I got on the dyno I was running mid 12 afr.....

But it was hot as balls out.

So I plan to make a map with a little lower afr target and timing. Then make a pull with the current e85 map I am running. Which seems to be just as good maybe a hair better than what I was running when Dustin was here.

The main thing I want to accomplish is the difference between 93 and 50/50 in the same day.

Could the amount of e85 play a role in whether or not a gain is seen from leaning out? Dustin saw no apreciable gain by leaning out the afr's on a mix of 2.5 gal. What if it was a 5 gal mix? Would the amount change the way the car responds to the afr?

Just a thought...

I guarentee the amount plays into how it responds.

Yes, the amount will have an affect. This is what we need to test, really.

Without optimizing AFR and timing for each mixture, you are not comparing anything of value. [I think I've mentioned this once or twice, lol.]

True....

The timing is key.....And of course making your LAMBDA properly scaled LMAO.

AFR theoretically should make a difference on any type of fuel. We weren't doing a pump vs e85 mix comparo. We did a rich AFR vs a lean AFR on mix. Timing was as optimized as it was gonna get, we saw no gains from more timing.


So imo, that's about as apples to apples as you can get. I'd like to see it done again on pump gas, and a higher mix of e85 personally, so we can build up a more complete idea about how various afrs with differing mixes of e85 add up on these cars.

It was completely opposite what i expected to see, but it was what it was.

Gotcha. I was thinking you didn't change timing to see the effect. That is surprising it (power/timing with different AFR) didn't change, though.

We didn't change timing at the various afr's, only cause time is always limited on the dyno, but timing was verified before we changed any of the afr's.

The trq curve looked real similar to what I seen on my pull.

tapa dat ass

I will say the changes shouldn't be dramatic between the two fueling curves, but I would expect each to need a certain amount of timing to be optimal. I don't like beating dead horses or being the squeaky wheel, but I don't feel like that is a conclusive comparison. There are so many damned variables with afr/combustion rate/flame speed/timing, it's almost impossible to theorize about what is "right".

I HOPE some of this will be seen Friday. This is the whole reason I want to optimize two fueling curves via timing, initially, then really zero it in from there. Like you said, though, dyno time is limited.

@wolly6973, I'm probably going to get there earlier than I originally said. I'm willing to thrash my car for 3-4 hours in this session if needed. I want you to be able to get on the rollers for as long as needed without it getting really late.

@phate

Are you just going to run your .82 and .86 maps?

Or do you have plans to run a lower map as a base?

Sounds good. I shouldn't need too much time I wouldn't think. Just long enough to find some timing the car likes, and then a power pull or 2.

If the shop needs to close down at whatever time and you are still rolling, that's fine with me. I can always get on a dyno some other time/place.

I'm going to see what timing curves work best with both the .82 and .86 lambda tunes. Depending on what AFR makes more power in a given RPM range, I'll richen it up or lean it out beyond what was tested for that specific rev range.

That might sound confusing, so:

if .82l makes more power from 3k-4.5k, then I'll richen that range up and play with timing to see if more power can be had. At the same time, I'll lean out the 4.5k-6.5k and play with timing to see where "optimal" AFR and "optimal" timing are. Rinse and repeat until power falls off by going too lean or too rich in a given range.

This is why I need the flexibility of being on the rollers for more than a couple hours. We have no idea where max power will occur, and playing with 1-2° of timing each pull could take a while.

Nah man, if you drive down, you'll get time on the dyno.

Right....

I was thinking of having 2 maps....Do a base on each like your saying. Then adjust up or down depending on which makes the better "BASE" power.

I'd like to think that my timing is pretty close to perfect but as you stated 1 degree or 2 degrees could result in signifigant power loss or gain.

If you are near empty, you could empty the tank by pulling the soft fuel line on the CDFP and letting the ITFP empty the fuel into a container right there. Should be pretty painless and you'll know the actual mix. Seeing as how the fuel lines are tiny (~1/4" ID), there isn't much in the lines, either. Once the mix is in, purge the system to be sure that is what you're running on first startup ;)

i would rather run the car on the dyno then let the ITFP run dry........

Yes lets get some data going!! excited for this guys thank you!

lol, I've run mine dry twice...once at an autocross.

Hahahha, okay, your the pro. Good luck man. Can't wait to see 100% mbt dialed in at each afr break point / boost / BAT / IAT / e85 mix ratio / moon gravitation influence

Seriously though, in for results.

And your right, you'll probably need a minimum of 2 hours to get some conclusive data.

lol not a good practice, ESP under load haha

I honestly think the gains if any will be minimal at the most.

Either running Meth or e85 and you will MBT your K04. Since its so damn small.

I think doing these tests on a BT MZR is where you will see the difference since you wont have a turbo shitting the bed on you. Which im sure dustin will do when he gets his shit running.

I think I just read obsession is now classified as a chronic disease, lol :/

BLAH BLAH BLAH.....shhhhhhhhhhh

Not considering the black death in the HPFP, what kind of power gains would make it worth it to you guys? From my searching, I've seen people claim as low as ~3%, to as high as ~12% gain. Just curious.

Edit: Assuming most K04 cars, once properly tuned, make 280-300hp, we're talking about an 8-30hp gain.

KMD just answered:

Interesting...

30hp would make my jaw drop. 15hp would still be worth it if i were in a position to do it, which i'm definitely not. <15hp, at least in my neck of the woods would be a toss up. Maybe on track days.


And honestly, as far as the black death, so far you've been the only person sick with it. Granted, your also the only person running 100% haha.

What are these 'seals' of which they speak, and why can't they be swapped out without replacing the entire pump housing?


---
- Tapadatass

If I had known you were coming all the way up to Joliet to Dyno, I would've sent you to the guy I use. Tom Wojitas 815-521-1820. The last time I went there he charged $85/car for 2-3 runs with a sniffer. He had a four-car minimum for that price, though.


---
- Tapadatass

Man, I called like 20 places. It was either no answer, booked, or "what's FWD? We can't do those here!".

I think I'm getting a good deal for $100/hr. That's some pretty cheap dyno time.

I'm going to guess 10-15 whp 30-50 lb/tq over 93 tune on my car.

100 bucks aint that cheap....i got a place down here that if i go with 3 or 4 cars 60 bucks cash for 3 pulls.

Most places around here are $60-100 for 3 pulls. After that, they charge by the hour, which ends up being cheaper.

Well if you would dyno with us, we would just need 1 more... how about it??

I pay $65 for 3 pulls here...

Travis at Cobb had a similar experience with the goo on 100%. Just not as well publicized.

Waaaaayyyyy back on page 2, or so, Calvin talks about the same issue, as well.

I guess myself @driver311 or @cld12pk2go or anyone else for that matter need to be the ones to bring data to life for the 50/50 mix....

I am dying to find out what @phate makes.

I'm not sure there's been enough suspense built up, maybe I should hold off? lol

I wish I could, but I have to go to Indy on Friday for work.

I'm in for some E85 love on a BT MS3. It will be about a month before I can get on the rollers but I found a shop that will do $75/hr and they have wifi so if DJ is available, we will be able to bounce a couple maps. Or he can give me a couple maps to try and see which ones make more power. I can do 93 vs 50/50 e85.

PS: Just found out that a local station should be getting e85 pretty soon so it will be easier to come by for me. I will no longer have to go into the scary neighborhoods to get what I need... lol!

Lots of win in this post.

get the results but wait to post them :sgrin:

Well, this exercise wasn't as helpful as I wanted. UOA for the black death:

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...MS3_Solids.jpg

The high amounts of magnesium and zinc make me think it's eating something; not sure what the calcium would be from though.

*Toodles off to find chemical formulae for fuels and additives*

Guys, remember this was diluted in something for the test. The actual PPM count is meaningless. Only the ratio is valid, here.

Edit: Maybe not. I'll call them tomorrow to verify how they tested the sample.

Probably already saw this, but I think it's worth posting:

NASIOC - View Single Post - E85 Injector Build-up / Gunk

So @phate what is your final answer LOL

I'll tell you Friday, lol.

I forsee 80/20 soon.

I think I am prolly due for a pump update myself....

Would be nice to know what the composition of said "gas cum" is; with that knowledge, there might be a way to dissolve or permanently suspend it in the tank so it doesn't adhere to anything.

I'm still digging, will post more info if I find anything of note.

Right but at some point you have to remove that shit.....

In before @MATT DAMOND makes a E85 catch can kit to catch said gas cum

I wouldn't rule out that it could be your E85 source as well. Just another idea.

I was just thinking this; it would be worth a phone call to the station where you fill up to find out whether or not you're the only one who buys e85 there, and how often they refill/clean the tank.

Right I was thinking that as well....But who knows

I know what the goo is....

Well?

isn't it obvious?

corn syrup




sorry, I had too!

Oh snap...Put some on muh waffles.

LOL I wanna run an E85 mix on my MS5 project, when I can, and I'm planning on running an inline filter underneath the car, if I do toy with E85. Maybe I could make kits or sumtin, IDK.

Side note, I recently moved, and uhaul lied to me, telling me the truck was a V8 when it was actually a V10. Sooooo I filled the tank with E85 before returning it. I also tried many times to do a burnout, but every attempt on dry pavement was fail.

YOU sir WIN!

DYNO UPDATE: NO DYNO

Just got a call from the dyno operator...one drum isn't doing something right so they have to get a mustang dyne tech out to fix it. That won't be until next week. FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK !!!

Time to make some more calls, lol.


@wolly6973

that sucks... I was really looking forward to your results and finally getting on the rollers myself.

Keep me posted if you find anything else that wouldn't be too far out of my way.

You jynxed yourself!!!!

Yeah, your probably right, haha. The guy at the shop said they put a car on it just to test it before tomorrow. Luckily, I didn't drive up for a session that couldn't happen, anyway.

I'm waiting for two shops to call me back, both a little farther north than Seneca. I think I've now called every dyno on both mustangdyne's and dynojet's websites for Illinois...Short notice like this doesn't work well for most. So, there's a good chance we won't be dynoing this week.

Just make some calls you noob and find shit.

Act like a GenPu owner and use the AP dyno function. Shit is mad accurate yo.

Man, I even called some places down by St Louis.

I'm now waiting on 1 place to call me back. The guy I talked to said I couldn't rent out their dyno because they weren't tuning it and for insurance and he didn't sound like he knew what he was talking about...So I was like "WTF are you talking about man!?!". He's waiting to talk to the tuner or the owner or something to see if it's cool, but they did have time available tomorrow.

Seriously, I've called like 25 fucking places. A friend of mine from Wheaton is calling a few shops he has worked with in that area, so I'm trying, lol.

Turbo Connection in Edwardsville IL. Turbo Connections

PBJ...St. Louis, MO PBJ (314) 781-3135

PBJ is where me and @burn813 dynod at....

Mustang Muscle....http://www.mustangmuscleonline.com/

This is where @jwilkins88 goes.

Keep me posted if you guys come down this way.

Wait you mean those aren't accurate Greg?

OH those are all FWD only.....JUST FYI

Any of those do you any good?

I don't really think I want to drive all that way to stl...

LOL...dont be scared.

If you promise me beer and women, I'll come down, haha.

If I don't get in somewhere tomorrow, I can definitely get in somewhere next week that is way closer to me. I just happened to be heading up to the Schaumberg area Friday night, so dynoing up north would have worked out nicely.

Beer maybe...women.....well you and @jwilkins88 can go hunting LOL

No dyno time. Sorry guys, gotta wait a little longer :sigh:

I think I'm headed up to Chi-town tomorrow night, anyway. So maybe we'll get some video of our cars :)

I personally was more interested in this thread to save the k04. My goal, instead of trying to max it out on e85... Was running the k04 @16-17 psi, and getting the same power as 20 psi on 93... With less KR and cooler bat's.

that would make it worth it to me. Till I go BT!

call Anderson Ford in Clinton Illinois, and ask for Danny Biggs; he should be really accommodating.

That dyno doesn't get any use at all anymore there....

Or these guys


right outside O'hare

P&L Motorsports - Home

@zenger - Thanks for the referral, but I talked to both of them. Anderson was behind on this week's cars already and P&L was booked up through next week.

Someone got a tasty phone call yesterday...wish me luck! :firedevil:

When are you dynoing you slut!

1 pm :D a shop in schaumburg is opening just so i can get on the rollers