E85 Discussion - HPFP lubrication and Flow issues

[bewsted]

We haz trq monsters on e85.....Thats prolly the only reason i was able to hang

[Dano]

the corn does stretch the capability of the K04.

I wish I had corn....30 mins one way from me.

[SilverDemon]

No corn in Cincinnati.....damn it !!

Although, good job guys with your success!!

[Mizzle]

Sooooo I've read through the whole thing & felt like contributing.

Observations & opinions:

The 'gunk,' has to be material break-down in the fuel system. I can't see ethanol turning steel into goo so I'm betting some rubber somewhere is getting eaten away.

E85's real octane rating is 94-96 [(R+M)/2.] The oxygen-transporting feature & significant cooling effect, however, make it 'act,' more like traditional fuels rated at 105-115 octane in a standard engine. Having said that, it really does seem like a 'tune by ear,' fuel. Agreed?

Do we know if the DI system on the Ecotec is in any way compatible? I ask because the Regal will be E85 compatible so that fueling system is looking mighty tasty.

Ethanol is the future of internal combustion, just not from corn. It's in F1 & Le Mans already... NASCAR needs to get on the boat since they're so "grass-roots," and "American." I love how grass-roots its development has become. Reading this thread is like reading how rockets were invented.

Questions:

Assuming it's 94 octane (and we ignore how overly-simplistic this question is,) couldn't you do half a tank of E85 and half a tank of 89 gas and land roughly at 91 octane on a stock tune while the ECU compensates for fueling needs or would it be too taxed?

Would the CDFP benefit in any way from having more fuel / pressure coming from the tank?

Has anyone thought of just getting a Flex Fuel car & logging it on the recommended pump gas & then running on 100% E85 to see how the fueling & timing changes to use as a guideline?

p.s.
Don't forget - You can always distill your own ethanol if you get a license & denature it... for a dollar or two a gallon post-production.

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by Mizzle Sooooo I've read through the whole thing & felt like contributing. Observations & opinions: The 'gunk,' has to be material break-down in the fuel system. I can't see ethanol turning steel into goo so I'm betting some rubber somewhere is getting eaten away. E85's real octane rating is 94-96 [(R+M)/2.] The oxygen-transporting feature & significant cooling effect, however, make it 'act,' more like traditional fuels rated at 105-115 octane in a standard engine. Having said that, it really does seem like a 'tune by ear,' fuel. Agreed? Do we know if the DI system on the Ecotec is in any way compatible? I ask because the Regal will be E85 compatible so that fueling system is looking mighty tasty. Ethanol is the future of internal combustion, just not from corn. It's in F1 & Le Mans already... NASCAR needs to get on the boat since they're so "grass-roots," and "American." I love how grass-roots its development has become. Reading this thread is like reading how rockets were invented. Questions: Assuming it's 94 octane (and we ignore how overly-simplistic this question is,) couldn't you do half a tank of E85 and half a tank of 89 gas and land roughly at 91 octane on a stock tune while the ECU compensates for fueling needs or would it be too taxed? Would the CDFP benefit in any way from having more fuel / pressure coming from the tank? Has anyone thought of just getting a Flex Fuel car & logging it on the recommended pump gas & then running on 100% E85 to see how the fueling & timing changes to use as a guideline? p.s. Don't forget - You can always distill your own ethanol if you get a license & denature it... for a dollar or two a gallon post-production.

It's something but are we sure on anything no. I switched to e85 after 150k miles of dinosaur remains on my integra. Fuel filter is fine. Rubber gaskets look great. So who knows what this platform's deal is.

The stock tune will try to compensate in closed loop, but open loops it would lean it out a lot. Plus why try to save 20c by buying 89 octane, it's not worth it. 50% imo is too much to add without adjusting your tune. I run about a max of 25% on my car, and have monitored religiously.

And apples to oarnges with the flex fuel vehicle to another vehicle. We already know how to handle fueling.

And I'm pretty sure distilling your own ethanol is not a great idea unless you plan on drinking it. Since alcohol forms azeotropes you might have trouble getting it as dry as manafacturers do and plus you'll still got VOC's from whatever you are distilling from that need to be taken out.

[Mizzle]

What about a higher-flow ITFP; would that have any benefit to the CDFP?

Ecotec parts compatible at all?

[phate]

I drink everything I brew

[Enki]

Bigger/badder in tank pump will probably help a little bit, but at some point (really soon, actually), we will be right back to the most difficult to surpass fueling limitation we have right now: the stock injectors.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by phate I drink everything I brew

Ditto.

[driver311]

Originally Posted by Enki Bigger/badder in tank pump will probably help a little bit, but at some point (really soon, actually), we will be right back to the most difficult to surpass fueling limitation we have right now: the stock injectors.

ya thats gonna be a rough one. I think with 50/50 and alot of meth someone could get to 450-475whp probably but thats gonna be about all she wrote. Mines maxed out right now on 24-25psi. I just gotta go dyno and see where im at at 24psi. Ive sure its gotta be up there to beat some of the cars and bikes I have recently. soon.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by driver311 ya thats gonna be a rough one. I think with 50/50 and alot of meth someone could get to 450-475whp probably but thats gonna be about all she wrote. Mines maxed out right now on 24-25psi. I just gotta go dyno and see where im at at 24psi. Ive sure its gotta be up there to beat some of the cars and bikes I have recently. soon.

From Cruz's Dyno...

He was at ~430 whp at 92% injector duty cycle at 12:1 AFR with a D07 at full tilt with 100% meth.

So assuming 100% duty cycle, leaning out to 12.5:1, and a 15% shift in injector pulse width with the 50/50 blend we get power supported at 100% duty cycle of around:

So 430whp *100/92*12.5/12*.85= ~415whp

What assumptions did you use to arrive at the 450-475whp estimate?

[bewsted]

Too much ricer math...tuned in for dyno rresults

tapa dat ass

[phate]

Ricer math, lol, but it's probably close. 100% IDC can be overrun, but I'm not sure by how much. I've seen 108.x% at WOT (not just a sudden spike - I've seen ~120% in that case).

@djuosnteisn, I grabbed the tool today from my parent's place. I haven't opened the box, but I'm lovin' the artwork.

I'm in limbo in terms of housing, so I'm not doing anything with the car, right now. The house I'm moving into, which was supposed to be finished being built May 31st, is still not finished. Project management ftw.

Soooooo, I have internet only at work right now. Everything I own is in boxes, lol. I hope they get this placed finished soon!

_______

I'm running the stock HPFP internals, right now. These are the good ones from the second pump I purchased. There is no way in hell anyone could possibly run this with E85. This thing drops pressure as soon as I get into boost. IDK how the other guy claiming to run E85 would have done this unless he had the most factory freak of a fuel pump to ever leave the Mazda factory.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Mizzle What about a higher-flow ITFP; would that have any benefit to the CDFP? Ecotec parts compatible at all?

No real gains to in tank fuel pumps unless the stock system becomes inadequate. Because we have a positive displacement CDFP after the intake pump, it doesn't really matter if it's 80 psi or 5 psi feeding it, as long as it's enough "psi" to fill the CDFP piston chamber in the allowed time. Fuel is in compressible, so the difference in mass between 80psi and 1psi is negligible.

I just learned these lessons a couple months ago lol.



Also, when run at 16 volts, the oem in tank fuel pump will flow as much as a walboro 255.

Originally Posted by phate @djuosnteisn, I grabbed the tool today from my parent's place. I haven't opened the box, but I'm lovin' the artwork.

It's mainly for Daniel hahaha.

[PapaSmurf]

subbed, very interested in the progress of this thread.

[phate]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn It's mainly for Daniel hahaha.

I figured, hehe. I'll post a pic of it when I can.

UPS site says my new fuel pump assembly was delivered today

[PapaSmurf]

I havent read through this whole thread, just bits and pieces. but has anyone tried browsing VW forums to see if they have come up with a solution for them to run 100% e85 and try to see if it works on our platform?

[bewsted]

The solution for them is to stay slow and not go fast....DUH!

[djuosnteisn]

And then blame it flushiness.

[PapaSmurf]

herrafrush yo

[bewsted]

or jdm....

back on topic....

[Dano]

well VW/Audi is where our best CDFP internals come from so there's that.

KMD and Autotech IIRC.

[bewsted]

And now i begin recon.

[djuosnteisn]

Cp-e uses APR i believe.

They hpfp's work well, cause the pistons are also herrarflushy.

[Dano]

I stand corrected

[bewsted]

Yea i was under the impression they were ARP internals as well.

Oh well either way we are all accomplishing the same damn thing.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by phate I figured, hehe. I'll post a pic of it when I can. UPS site says my new fuel pump assembly was delivered today

I can't wait to see it, especially f it's a drawing of Dustin's cock.

By the way, do we know what company actually makes our injectors? We might be able to contact them directly for options on upgraded injectors.


Tapadatass

[djuosnteisn]

Mitsubishi. I posted a link some where at some time. I can re post if people need.

[Enki]

There aren't any options on upgraded injectors.

[djuosnteisn]

Found it:

Products - Automotive Equipment - MITSUBISHI ELECTRIC

[PapaSmurf]

isnt the problem our HPFP getting gunked up?

[bewsted]

No problem is @phate fuel pump gunking up. I haven't seen anything like what he has had....Guess the 50% 93 dilutes it enough to stop the corrosive act or makes the Ethanol percentage low enough to not be able to penetrate the gunk or fuel lines.

[Mizzle]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Found it: Products - Automotive Equipment - MITSUBISHI ELECTRIC

Are they the only ones they make? Their website is retarded.

[Enki]

Pretty much. Unfortunately, several members have already spent quite a while looking for replacements, and so far we have only one hope that has no ETA or really any substantial information of any sort other than "not yet."

So, we have to make due with what we have.

[Mizzle]

I just meant to contact Mitsu and be like "soooooo how about something bigger?" lol

[Enki]

Not gonna hold my breath on that one.

I'm willing to give it a shot though, if anyone wants.

[SilverDemon]

I think I remember 06speed6 getting kicked in the gonads a few times with the response he received from them.....as to say they will never produce bigger injectors because we were not an "automotive manufacture".......

[bewsted]

Good theory just manufacturers that size don't fuck with small fries LOL.

[phate]

Injectors...nothing like beating this horse again.

I haven't found anything of value in the VW/Audi forums. I hate sifting through their forums because it's a lot of ethanol bashing with nonsensical reasoning. Actually, I've done hours upon hours of reading through forums about running ethanol. It's pretty difficult to find anything substantial, especially anything pertaining to direct injection

[bewsted]

I spent like 2 hours reading the VW forums saying "You can't run it" "Yes you can" "Evo's run it"

Those guys aren't trying to hard for having a year on us to have figured things out.