E85 Discussion - HPFP lubrication and Flow issues

[Ziggo]

At this point I am actually wondering if the stock hotside bored out might be freer flowing than the ATP2871. I am seeing significantly higher massflows on my setup than Dano's and I don't think I can attribute it all to a steedspeed vs DNP issue.


Zigatapatalka

[Dano]

now that was just below the belt!!!

a kick to the head and I had a knee on the mat!

[phate]

Guys, I think we'll be seeing another K04/E85 car get dialed in on the dyno before too long. Most of my effort right now is to get @glorifiedbozo's car tuned up pretty well and then we may meet up for some dyno time very soon.

If we end up meeting up for dyno time, I'm throwing my car on to test the winter blend timing numbers

[Dano]

hard to keep up with ya but are you on 5050 now or back to 100% E?

[phate]

No, sorry...I haven't been keeping up a ton, either.

I am running straight E85 and I plan to continue running straight E85. After this past week when I broke down the HPFP and didn't find black death, I'm relieved and motivated to see where things end up with straight E85 over time.

[Dano]

right on brotha!

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by Dano now that was just below the belt!!! a kick to the head and I had a knee on the mat!

Just thinking outside the box, we don't have a solid number for what the stock A/R is. At the top end it shouldn't matter what manifold you are using, and our setups are very similar other than that. I don't even have meth.

Keeping it somewhat on topic, running a 3/9 mixture has thus far provided the following improvements over straight pump:
+6.5* timing
.7 leaner (11.3 ->12.0)
EGTs reduced by 100*
+~50hp as indicated by VD

I do not have meth, so all fueling is from my injectors, and my IDC varies between 85-90% depending on the temperature. Still in the process of adding timing, I am also going to try to lean it out another .25 at least. I would like to lean out to 12.5.


Zigatapatalka

[Tomas]

^^^ are you running a DNP EM?

[Dano]

yes hes running DNP...

so Ziggo those observations are interesting and prove that it doesn't take much E85 to increase HP significantly....you are basically removing the knock limitation from the motor which opens up a whole other world of possibilities.

The added cooling effect is a bonus.

now back to GT28 vs. BNR S3

I was under the impression the hostside AR was smaller on the BNR S3 due to it being an OE housing that is machined out. Also..your intake/maf cal could explain more g/s than mine. not saying you aren't actually flowing much more than I but just trying to remove the variables.

what voltage are you running? I am right at 4.8.

[cld12pk2go]

GTX3071 on order...hopefully I will get it installed next weekend...

I will have an EGT gage as well.

Anyone have a recommendation on the EGT gage?

[Dano]

i'm jelly fo sho...enjoy the build 12pk!

who wants to bet 12pk will squeeze 450ish out of the GTX3071?

[Nataphen]

Originally Posted by Dano who wants to bet 12pk will squeeze 450ish out of the GTX3071?

I hope I hope I hope...

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go GTX3071 on order...hopefully I will get it installed next weekend... I will have an EGT gage as well. Anyone have a recommendation on the EGT gage?

Looks like we're gonna have a battle on our hands for highest hp MS3 in Ohio...

[phate]

So, another fun story for you guys:

My closest E85 station went to winter blend E70....and I adjusted my maf curve for it...ran it for a couple tanks perfectly.

Filled up last night at a different station......apparently they hadn't switched to winter blend, because I saw 13.5:1 at full throttle today.

And - it ran beautifully I went ahead and flashed my E85 tune back on, though, cause I'm not totally comfortable with those timing values running that lean...

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by phate So, another fun story for you guys: My closest E85 station went to winter blend E70....and I adjusted my maf curve for it...ran it for a couple tanks perfectly. Filled up last night at a different station......apparently they hadn't switched to winter blend, because I saw 13.5:1 at full throttle today. And - it ran beautifully I went ahead and flashed my E85 tune back on, though, cause I'm not totally comfortable with those timing values running that lean...

A taste of the dark side you have gotten... fyi I switched backed to mid 12's for now too cuz 13+ just sou ds scary no matter how amazing it runs lol

[Nataphen]

You guys know that the DI Cobalts have been running 13.xx AFRs on e85 with nice results for a good while now, right? Every motor is different, but it's food for thought.

EDIT: Also, on e85 they are making 375whp and 400wtq on a 2.0L motor with a slightly better K04. I think that the fact that phate wasn't seeing any gains from .81 to .83 lambda (indicated 11.91 and 12.20 AFR) may have had more to do with the K04 being maxed out than leaner AFRs not helping. We need a BT guy with no airflow restriction to give this a shot to really draw a conclusion IMO. If the better turbo on the Cobalts is maxing out at 375whp on e85, then phate maxing out our turbo with a slightly lower number would make sense.

[frodaddyweez]

Originally Posted by Nataphen You guys know that the DI Cobalts have been running 13.xx AFRs on e85 with nice results for a good while now, right? Every motor is different, but it's food for thought. EDIT: Also, on e85 they are making 375whp and 400wtq on a 2.0L motor with a slightly better K04. I think that the fact that phate wasn't seeing any gains from .81 to .83 lambda (indicated 11.91 and 12.20 AFR) may have had more to do with the K04 being maxed out than leaner AFRs not helping. We need a BT guy with no airflow restriction to give this a shot to really draw a conclusion IMO. If the better turbo on the Cobalts is maxing out at 375whp on e85, then phate maxing out our turbo with a slightly lower number would make sense.

Ive been running low to mid 13.xx AFRs these past few weeks. Not on purpose tho bc of the bpv leaking lol. New one is on its way. But my engine is still in one piece so far. But im still on both stock manifolds. Hopefully ill get half of that problem resolved with my tax return and a DNP manifold.

[josurr]

Originally Posted by Nataphen EDIT: Also, on e85 they are making 375whp and 400wtq on a 2.0L motor with a slightly better K04. I think that the fact that phate wasn't seeing any gains from .81 to .83 lambda (indicated 11.91 and 12.20 AFR) may have had more to do with the K04 being maxed out than leaner AFRs not helping. We need a BT guy with no airflow restriction to give this a shot to really draw a conclusion IMO. If the better turbo on the Cobalts is maxing out at 375whp on e85, then phate maxing out our turbo with a slightly lower number would make sense.

would it be possible/worthwhile to swap in a k04 from a cobalt into a speed?

[Nataphen]

I doubt that it's going to bolt right up, so you may as well get a better turbo than a k04 if you go to the trouble of swapping.

[Ziggo]

And unless you replaced the manifold with a twin scroll its going to spool like a big turbo.... Not worth the trouble.

[Realgib3]

It doesn't even kinda bolt up lol.

[josurr]

/meh, was more of a question, and not really something i was actually going to spend money on, since nat mentioned that they maxed out with higher numbers on a cobalt

[XLT_66]

Holy shit....it took me three days to read this thread in it's entirety on my iPad. I haven't been able to look at all the tables and graphs you guys have posted but I thought I'd post what I'm seeing.

I put in 6 gallons of E85 and then topped the tank off. At the same time, I loaded up a map that increased my MAF by 15% across the board.

My trims are -4 for the most part, -10 when I let off the gas

I'm targeting 11.8 AFR at WOT and I'm pegging on it, no problem while hitting 20 PSI.

Car is running very well but since I scaled my MAF, now my g/s and load is all increased and thus I'm not getting to the timing values I usually do. I'm only seeing 15.5-16* at RL as compared to 18* on 93 (no meth!)

So, my question is, if I continue to do a perfect 50/50 mix of E/93, can I just target a leaner AFR and go back to my first MAF cal so I don't have to change everything else that is load based?

I know we went over this already but my mind is cracked out from reading this thread fir the last 3 hours...

Also, I got a cell today concerning the MAF. Can't remember what it was so I'll update this when I get back into the car...

[Nataphen]

Originally Posted by XLT_66 Holy shit....it took me three days to read this thread in it's entirety on my iPad.

If you'd read it on a PC, you could have finished in three hours.

I believe that you should be able to lean out your AFRs without scaling the MAF. I haven't had a chance to play with all this yet, so I'll let one of the gurus give you the go ahead nod.

[Dano]

6 gallons prob requires a maf cal. 2-3 not so much. The fact that your trims are in the negative shows that you scaled the maf too far and could take that 4% back out.


Tappin

[mrmonk7663]

FWIW...I initially put in 3 gallons to a full tank and my LTFTs were skewed pretty good. It was in the +/-8 range.

[snOhio]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go GTX3071 on order...hopefully I will get it installed next weekend...

Let me know if you need another set of hands. would love to see this come together.


great thread guys. thanks for meticulously documenting your forays into e85.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by XLT_66 Holy shit....it took me three days to read this thread in it's entirety on my iPad. I haven't been able to look at all the tables and graphs you guys have posted but I thought I'd post what I'm seeing. I put in 6 gallons of E85 and then topped the tank off. At the same time, I loaded up a map that increased my MAF by 15% across the board. My trims are -4 for the most part, -10 when I let off the gas I'm targeting 11.8 AFR at WOT and I'm pegging on it, no problem while hitting 20 PSI. Car is running very well but since I scaled my MAF, now my g/s and load is all increased and thus I'm not getting to the timing values I usually do. I'm only seeing 15.5-16* at RL as compared to 18* on 93 (no meth!) So, my question is, if I continue to do a perfect 50/50 mix of E/93, can I just target a leaner AFR and go back to my first MAF cal so I don't have to change everything else that is load based? I know we went over this already but my mind is cracked out from reading this thread fir the last 3 hours... Also, I got a cell today concerning the MAF. Can't remember what it was so I'll update this when I get back into the car...

You will need to adjust any table that uses load as an axis by the amount you scaled your MAF. Not multiplying the value, but shifting the values along the load axis to the cell that represents the old load value times the MAF scaling factor.


Tapadatass

[Dano]

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 FWIW...I initially put in 3 gallons to a full tank and my LTFTs were skewed pretty good. It was in the +/-8 range.

lol I guess that might depend on how accurate your original maf cal was to begin with. My LTFTs were +- 2 on 93 and only went up to +5 on 3 gallons of E and absolutely no AF shift at WOT.

every car will be different of course.

I think there is enough information out now and more to come, regarding what mix you may want to opt for and each mix will have its own challenges.

a 2 gallon mix probably will not require any MAF [and other related table scaling] for 90% of the cars out there.

a 3 gallon mix is probably the same

anything over that and you may need an entirely new map....lol

What power gains to expect?

2-3 gallons will probably remove any knock limitation in the motor allowing more timing and boost [if you were knock limited before]

4+ gallons will net the same as above but your octane will get higher with more E and more cylinder cooling as a bonus.

so if you don't want to reinvent the wheel and completely redo all tables of your map that are related to load the 2-3 gallon mix will provide tremendous gains at very little cost.

I do think I'll give a full tank of E a try in the near future

[forcedinduktion]

E-hardON

[Ziggo]

My before/after E85 currently.

[mrmonk7663]

WHat Turbo?

Originally Posted by Ziggo My before/after E85 currently.

[phate]

Lookin good, Ziggo!!!


It looks like we'll have a THIRD straight E85 car later this month!!!!!!

And it sounds like we'll be dialing in @glorifiedbozo's car on the dyno in just a couple weeks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I MIGHT BE MORE EXCITED THAN THEY ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[superskaterxes]

i would be all for 100% if my injector could keep up! ugh lol

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Ziggo My before/after E85 currently.

I would call that WIN.

[mrmonk7663]

So is it stock K04 or a BNR Turbo?

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 So is it stock K04 or a BNR Turbo?

BNR S3

[XLT_66]

Originally Posted by Ziggo My before/after E85 currently.

Great looking graph. Gotta love a leaner car that holds more boost!

[Enki]

Originally Posted by phate It looks like we'll have a THIRD straight E85 car later this month!!!!!!

What the hell, I'll be four.

[phate]

Another EXCELLENT oil report while running E85:



I'm guessing the fuel content is from running 93 while I went to the dragon. It was running rich as hell while I was down there, so I'm not surprised to see it. I changed the oil shortly after I got back (I may not even have switched back to E85 at that point, actually). So, 3500-4000 miles on E85 and 1500-2000 miles on 93 in this report.

Apparently, massive torque on the low end doesn't hurt a thing