E85 Discussion - HPFP lubrication and Flow issues

[Enki]

If I can borrow one that isn't being used, I can get the filter by the time I'm ready to switch, and can pay for the shipping to and from for the part when the experiment is over.

[srt4monster]

I know that John from PTP has done a huge amount of testing with E85. I think that superskater has been on the phone with him on a few occations talking about fuel pumps and stuff. I will see if I can get him to log on and make a few comments.

[Dano]

LOL

there is some "history" between John and MSF...doubt he'll be logging on and commenting. I personally have nothing against him and just spoke with him a few weeks ago about a pump failure.

[BigjohnB20]

Cant believe the last post in here was like 4 days ago. This thread was blowing up for a while. Figure I'll give it a little bump.

Anyone who has an Android phone should check out an app called KeenDriver. Its for finding alternative fuel gas stations and you can basically pull up google maps and tell it to show all stations that sell E85. So far it has been very accurate around where I am. I just found a sweet, sweet liquor station right by my work. Now I know of EtOH stations within 2 miles of my house and my work. No excuse not to run it, lol. Need to get a few things sorted out with my car/tune, then time to bump the timing

[josurr]

Originally Posted by BigjohnB20 Cant believe the last post in here was like 4 days ago. This thread was blowing up for a while. Figure I'll give it a little bump. Anyone who has an Android phone should check out an app called KeenDriver. Its for finding alternative fuel gas stations and you can basically pull up google maps and tell it to show all stations that sell E85. So far it has been very accurate around where I am. I just found a sweet, sweet liquor station right by my work. Now I know of EtOH stations within 2 miles of my house and my work. No excuse not to run it, lol. Need to get a few things sorted out with my car/tune, then time to bump the timing

its because phate is pretty much done with his testing... and now he is helping tune some other guys on here with full e85... look for their threads...

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness Fuel pressure is super low. Anthony helped me check pump and its perfect. Now we are thinking it's the relief valve. Anyone have an extra? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just wanted to follow up with this... @superskaterxes was correct in that it was my rv that failed. Most likely due to running 1800 psi for so long and not because of e85. Thanks to @Realgib3 for the replacement rv.

[cld12pk2go]

@phate

It looks like my second tank of 7.5 gallons E to 5 gallons of 93 has resulted in my spill valve sticking. I was getting ~60 PSI at idle intermittently. This is of course after almost a year at various lower E concentrations.

About 30 miles ago I filled up with 5 gallons E to 7.5 gallons 93 and it seems to be much better so far (dissolving some of the gunk off is my current conjecture); however, I am likely going to disassemble to clean/inspect.

The shop manual doesn't go into any details about disassembling of the pump or spill valve (page 985-987).

Do you have any general recommendations on the spill valve removal/disassemble/reassemble? I reread the first 2 pages of this thread were you show the pics but you did not detail any tips/tricks.

[phate]

Yeah:

1) Unplug the spill valve solenoid from the harness,

2) Unscrew spill valve with 32mm box wrench or adjustable wrench and pull out (pull out, lol)

3) DO NOT DROP SOLENOID

4) Using a cloth covered flat screwdriver, pry around the bottom edge of the collar to work it loose. It doesn't matter if you scratch that edge, but DO NOT scratch the top of the collar where it mates to the spill valve button thing.

5) Clean with brake parts cleaner and a soft rag (I use microfiber but it doesn't really matter).

6) put back together, press collar into solenoid until it sticks, then screw it back in using the tighten-loosen-tighten method until it's tight and the connector points in the same direction as before (assuming you didn't spin it within the nut, cause it will).

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by phate Yeah: 1) Unplug the spill valve solenoid from the harness, 2) Unscrew spill valve with 32mm box wrench or adjustable wrench and pull out (pull out, lol) 3) DO NOT DROP SOLENOID 4) Using a cloth covered flat screwdriver, pry around the bottom edge of the collar to work it loose. It doesn't matter if you scratch that edge, but DO NOT scratch the top of the collar where it mates to the spill valve button thing. 5) Clean with brake parts cleaner and a soft rag (I use microfiber but it doesn't really matter). 6) put back together, press collar into solenoid until it sticks, then screw it back in using the tighten-loosen-tighten method until it's tight and the connector points in the same direction as before (assuming you didn't spin it within the nut, cause it will).

Is it required to pull the pump or can I just put the solenoid with the pump still in the car?

TKS!

[phate]

Eff pulling the pump. Just pull the solenoid, it's way easier!

Also, once the solenoid is removed, pull the button thingy out and you can see the internals piston through the hole. You'll be able to tell pretty quickly if things are dirty

[rfinkle2]

Phate, do you still recommend running the SVT filter to people going with relatively high mixes of e85?

After your testing, what are your ideas about what is causing any "gunk" to accumulate in either the spill valve or the pump itself?

[phate]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Phate, do you still recommend running the SVT filter to people going with relatively high mixes of e85? After your testing, what are your ideas about what is causing any "gunk" to accumulate in either the spill valve or the pump itself?

Yeah, I recommend the filter as a precaution. My extra fuel line is now being passed around to those who have expressed interest, to me, in running straight E85. That offer is valid to anyone because I want to see more people gain stupid amounts of power from E85, haha.

I think the gunk, initially, was the leftover crap from my tank/lines being dislodged by the E85 and getting shot at my HPFP.

After that, though, I do think Blackstone was/is correct about it being oil. I think the oil is getting past the internals piston seal, and accumulating, possibly due to ethanol not dissolving oil as well as gas.

[wolly6973]

Have there been any 100% genpu testers?

I think your theory could easily be confirmed by a lower mileage car testing it to see if there is any gunk.

Maybe I need to go 100%....

[phate]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 Have there been any 100% genpu testers? I think your theory could easily be confirmed by a lower mileage car testing it to see if there is any gunk. Maybe I need to go 100%....

Nope, I've mentioned it to a couple guys, but no one has done it. Let me know if you want to do it!

[wolly6973]

I will once I get settled into my new place. I am driving a lot now, and can't be stranded.

The new place is only about 1 mile from work, so I can always walk/bike if something happens.

Should be mid-November at the latest. There is e-85 literally across the street.

[silvapain]

I'm on my second tank of 100%E85 with no filter (~300 miles) and no problems so far. We'll see how long I go without issues.


Tapadatass

[Enki]

I'm no more than a couple hours away from being on the sauce myself.

[BigjohnB20]

Originally Posted by Enki I'm no more than a couple hours away from being on the sauce myself.

You talking about the car or yourself, lol.

Friday afternoon just about to leave work. I got 2.5 gallons E85 in the tank, but I am planning on consuming plenty of EtOH myself tonight as well.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by BigjohnB20 You talking about the car or yourself, lol. Friday afternoon just about to leave work. I got 2.5 gallons E85 in the tank, but I am planning on consuming plenty of EtOH myself tonight as well.

I'm dry; the car needs AA, and will be binging here soon.

[Dano]

don't remember if I posted this here but my cars addition is getting worse...its now at a 4/8 mix up from the 3/9 over the last month.....I can see a 5050 mix on the horizon.

I have started to log IDC now so we'll see how far I can go with the GT28...meth will help as now I am on a DO7 nozzle but have a 10 at the ready if needed

BTW here is a link for the state by state winter blend schedule.

http://www.e85mustangs.com/regions123.html

does anyone know if they actually break it down like the above schedule suggests..meaning there are actually 3 blends Winter, spring/fall and summer

[R3L3NTL3S]

I have been running a 50/50 mix for about 3 weeks now.
And I started with a 2 e85 gallon mix about a month and a half ago.
I never used a filter, granted what everyone else says. But when I started to
play with e85 the car only had 2500 miles so I wasnt too worried about gunk.
A few things I have noticed is the mechanical fuel pump likes to make more
noise on cold start ups than it used to but I monitored it a few times and fuel pressure
is golden. I pretty much do a maf cal every other fill up because I add half
a gallon more of E85 every other fill up. But the power you get from E is amazing.

Whats the point of going BT when I can light up third from a roll.

[XLT_66]

Made 304WHP/387WTQ on 50/50 mix and 20* of timing.

Gained 20WHP/40WTQ over 93 fuel at 18* timing

Car rippppppssss

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by R3L3NTL3S Whats the point of going BT when I can light up third from a roll.

Lets do a 40 roll and I'll show you

[R3L3NTL3S]

lol. im down for some fun.

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by R3L3NTL3S I have been running a 50/50 mix for about 3 weeks now. And I started with a 2 e85 gallon mix about a month and a half ago. I never used a filter, granted what everyone else says. But when I started to play with e85 the car only had 2500 miles so I wasnt too worried about gunk. A few things I have noticed is the mechanical fuel pump likes to make more noise on cold start ups than it used to but I monitored it a few times and fuel pressure is golden. I pretty much do a maf cal every other fill up because I add half a gallon more of E85 every other fill up. But the power you get from E is amazing. Whats the point of going BT when I can light up third from a roll.

Horsepower is the point. You're still flow limited on the k04. But the kindof torque you can make is pretty crazy with the e85

[cld12pk2go]

So here is what I found when I pulled the spill valve:



Lots of gray residue that wiped off easily with a shop towel.





This part was a little dirty as well:



Had a similar tint on the housing:






Cleaned up:










I couldn't figure out how to get the spill valve apart, so I just cleaned it up as best as I could with the shop towels and carb cleaner. I fiddled with trying to prior up/apart the 2 retainer pieces, but was afraid of breaking something when they didn't cooperate with moderate force.

No issues so far.

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Lots of gray residue that wiped off easily with a shop towel.

This residue seems to be pretty standard. Mine was like this, after drying it turned a brownish color.

[driver311]

I ran 50% for a few months and now Im on 35% and still see no residue after close to a year of solid use. I run crazy timing with little e85 and no meth. I guess there is no real standard for what any one individual can do. Its all about your particular setup and supporting mods. Looking at Danos logs his car runs much much higher bats than mine. Im not sure what it is that makes my car run sooo much cooler but its the reason I can push my tune on so little e85 and I literally never get knock. What Im saying is everyone of us is gonna have a diffferent e85 experience and be able to push harder than we have ever before. But rest assured itll put a smile on all our faces. LOL

KNOCK ON WOOD. lol

[R3L3NTL3S]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 Horsepower is the point. You're still flow limited on the k04. But the kindof torque you can make is pretty crazy with the e85

You a right about the poor little k04 being the true bottle neck. But with the traction issues,due to torque, i dont see how more horsepower is going to make things better.

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by R3L3NTL3S You a right about the poor little k04 being the true bottle neck. But with the traction issues,due to torque, i dont see how more horsepower is going to make things better.

HP and torque are interrelated, but power is not what directly spins tires, torque is.


Zigatapatalka

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Ziggo HP and torque are interrelated, but power is not what directly spins tires, torque is. Zigatapatalka

Correct. Hp = Tq * RPM / 5252

That's why Hp always equals Tq at 5252 RPM.


Tapadatass

[Nataphen]

Originally Posted by R3L3NTL3S Whats the point of going BT when I can light up third from a roll.

Wheel spin? What's that? Oh, that's what my wife's car has.

[R3L3NTL3S]

must be nice to have traction all the time

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Nataphen Wheel spin? What's that? Oh, that's what my wife's car has.

Wheelspin is what you get with 400WHP/450TQ in 1-3rd gears and a lil in 4th sometimes

last two runs were after moving AF from 12.0 to 12.2 and a full * of timing added above 5K for a RL of 19*



and Anthony, my bats are just the way I like them....I don't run those snake oil impregnated gaskets lol

[Dano]

Question for the E85 experts.

I have 2 pairs of plots below with each taken in the exact same location and same AMB temp of ~60* same tune except for the following:

1st pair map had the below timing curve starting from 2500 on a 3/9 mix

1.00	2.00	6.50	9.00	10.50	12.00	14.00	16.00	18.00	19.00

2nd pair had this timing curve...1* more advance from 3K up on a 4/8 mix

1.00	3.00	7.50	10.00	11.50	13.00	15.00	17.00	19.00	20.00

I am trying to optimize timing and I obviously lost power in the 2nd pair. up until the 2nd pair today I was making more power with ign advance as outlined in the Battle my Virtual Dyno

my question is did I lose power because I went beyond MBT or because my mix changed enough to require even more timing. I know this is speculation at this point but any input would be welcome.

[silvapain]

Best way to tell for sure is to go back to the old timing with the new 4/8 mix.

If you go back to the old power levels then it is MBT; if the power drops even more than it's Ethanol requiring more timing.


Tapadatass

[Lex]

more wind that day?

test back to back timing changes the same day - literally back to back

[rfinkle2]

Dano, are you still spraying meth over top of E85?

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Lex more wind that day? test back to back timing changes the same day - literally back to back

lol I even checked the forecast and no wind either day but I see what you mean for sure.

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Dano, are you still spraying meth over top of E85?

Yes I still run 100% meth on a DO7 nozzle...at some point I may need it for fuel IDK.

...goes off to look at todays logs with IDC added....

only 75% IDC @ 320 g/s @ 6500

do we think ~90 IDC is when you are less efficient with atomization and/or are spraying into the spark event?

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by Dano do we think ~90 IDC is when you are less efficient with atomization and/or are spraying into the spark event?

Depends on the rpm and the amount of spark advance you are running.