E85 Discussion - HPFP lubrication and Flow issues

[phate]

Originally Posted by Dano do we think ~90 IDC is when you are less efficient with atomization and/or are spraying into the spark event?

No, I don't think that is true. I see 100% + From 4k - redline without a problem

[bewsted]

Thought someone already proved the point that just because your IDC is 100% doesn't mean that your losing functionality?

[Ziggo]

I proved out that the injector pulsewidth (and thus the duty cycle) that we log doesn't properly account for increases in DI fuel pressure. IDC and pulsewidth are still indicative though and roughly anything over 70% and you are getting sub-optimal atomization prior to spark. This number goes down, 3ms is the atomization time, at redline only 9ms total is available, so anything over 66% would be sub optimal, not accounting for spark advance.

Its a sliding scale, slightly exceeding doesn't mean you lost a ton of power or necessarily any at all, but at some point the atomization becomes so bad that it causes spark blowout. Its why I will be working on secondary injectors next.

[bewsted]

And does that apply to all mixes of e85 ?

Or is that only for pump ?

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by bewsted And does that apply to all mixes of e85 ? Or is that only for pump ?

Haven't been able to find atomization information for E85 that I trust. It takes more energy to vaporize than gas, thus the cooling properties and my instinct is that means it takes longer, but I don't know.

I don't have access to the SAE spec that gives the 3ms time and I don't know what conditions that is for, but increased boost pressure and higher BATs will reduce the time to atomize/vaporize.

[phate]

So I ran a GT3076 car which was running straight 93 octane Saturday night...chalk one up for E85 - @xhymer!!!

It's ok, I'll be tuning his car on eth mix, so it won't be this way for too long, haha.

[Dano]

its all in the tune....

[mrmonk7663]

Has anyone determined what the acceptable power level is for stock internals? Seems some of you BT guys are at 450rwhp or so on stock internals.

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 Has anyone determined what the acceptable power level is for stock internals? Seems some of you BT guys are at 450rwhp or so on stock internals.

The internals will be torque limited, and some of the k04 gals are running as much torque as the big turbo guys.


Zigatapatalka

[mrmonk7663]

So have we found the tq limit yet then ?

[Nataphen]

Not really. We know that it CAN hold over 450tq, but nobody has run a car for a long period with that much power so far. So, it will hold that torque, but we don't know for how long yet.

[R3L3NTL3S]

@phate

If you still need a genpu for 100% e85 I will be the first I guess. Im running 75% e85 in this tank. I have about 5000 miles and have been running the E since 3500 miles without the filter starting with low mixes (2/10) up to 75% now.

The only issue I have had so far is having what seems a slightly lower idle with the 75%. No big deal really Just gotta wait for the fuel trims to settle a bit and check part throttle. I asked the gas station clerk what blend of E85 they have and it's class 3 (70% for those who dont know)

Let me know man.

[mrmonk7663]

Out of curiosity...planning for the future, is there a "go to" engine builder for the MS3s?

Originally Posted by Nataphen Not really. We know that it CAN hold over 450tq, but nobody has run a car for a long period with that much power so far. So, it will hold that torque, but we don't know for how long yet.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Ziggo The internals will be torque limited, and some of the k04 gals are running as much torque as the big turbo guys. Zigatapatalka

and the later you bring that TQ on the more it will take and the longer it will last....

Reverse boost taper FTW.

[mrmonk7663]

Unfortunately reverse boost taper isn't practical when trying to make power with the k04...when I go BT reverse taper for sure.

[dougefresh_]

Hmmm.... I ran 2 gallons of E85 to rule out false kr as the cause of my kr when I was stuck @ 22psi. I was running the D05 w/m nozzle back then (50/50 mix), and kr limited, but I should have been running the D07 for my crank hp & psi. Now with the D07 I safely run 24psi with mostly 0 kr (sometimes 1-2*... which doesn't bother me).... but now I'm stuck @ 24 psi.

I talked to a (somewhat) local Cobb Tuner who welded my slash pipe on for the venturi set up I run. He was super anti-meth (cause it can fail) and saying to run E85. I called him a couple months later, and asked him his thoughts of running a few gallons of E85 in the speeds, which are not designed to handle it. He was more adamant then that I stay away from it... altogether, lol. He didn't realize the speeds were not designed to run E85.

I ordered a D010 nozzle I'll be running soon (hoping for 26-27psi kr free), but still considering E85. My hats off to you guys for experimenting with the corn juice. I'm just waiting for the LT results in terms of how our entire fuel system handles it. By long term, I mean 1 year ++. That, and running E85 would be WAY more convenient for me personally... there's a station at the airport 6 miles away. I have to drive 150+ miles RT to pick up pure methanol to mix, and I tear through that shit.

/sitting on sidelines

[Enki]

Well, there will be lots of cross-sectional data here soon. Some doing this, some doing that, etc.

Time will tell.

[86AmishMs3]

James (Enki) has balls. Thursday internal install. Friday change to full E85 mixture, morning drive from tuscon to phoenix and back.

[rfinkle2]

Hey guys...

I'm ordering the fuel line today (L33X-13-49XA) THANKS PHATE, and must have missed where you sourced the 03-04 Cobra (supercharged version) fuel filter.

Can I get one of those from a local parts store?

[wolly6973]

Yes.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 Yes.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 James (Enki) has balls. Thursday internal install. Friday change to full E85 mixture, morning drive from tuscon to phoenix and back.

Thanks man, but you forgot to add that I cruised on down with no sleep. The drive home was....interesting.
Car still runs like a champ. Per Phate's advice, just added a bunch of timing to it and hopefully I can get the MAF dialed in. Also, now I know I'm not crazy and converting to e85 has actually made the engine a hell of a lot more responsive at lower throttle inputs (my shifting has become somewhat rough again, and touching the throttle at 80 = decent increase in speed without boost).

[Dano]

another one hooked phate...your plan is coming along nicely

[snOhio]

so i'll chime in as another genpu owner willing to try some corn. but, i'm stock, and i don't have an AP. based on reading through all 41 pages of this thread, plus bozo's thread, am i correct to assume that i won't really see any benefit without a tuning solution?

[josurr]

Originally Posted by snOhio so i'll chime in as another genpu owner willing to try some corn. but, i'm stock, and i don't have an AP. based on reading through all 41 pages of this thread, plus bozo's thread, am i correct to assume that i won't really see any benefit without a tuning solution?

i wouldn't do anything more than 1 gallon until an AP is installed on your car...

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by josurr i wouldn't do anything more than 1 gallon until an AP is installed on your car...

Agreed. I tried 100% E85 on the stock HPFP with 0 WGDC at 13 PSI and I had SERIOUS fuel pressure issues. It's in my E85 thread.


Tapadatass

[R3L3NTL3S]

Originally Posted by snOhio so i'll chime in as another genpu owner willing to try some corn. but, i'm stock, and i don't have an AP. based on reading through all 41 pages of this thread, plus bozo's thread, am i correct to assume that i won't really see any benefit without a tuning solution?

Please dont do this. It has been a while since anyone has gone zoom-zoom-boom and I would rather you not break the cycle.

Just hang tight until you get your AP

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Originally Posted by snOhio so i'll chime in as another genpu owner willing to try some corn. but, i'm stock, and i don't have an AP. based on reading through all 41 pages of this thread, plus bozo's thread, am i correct to assume that i won't really see any benefit without a tuning solution?

Yes you would be correct. In fact based on @silvapain's thread I would say need to atleast have an AP and upgraded HPFP before going full E85. I would also recommend SRI, DP, and RMM because that's really what's gonna set off the butt dyno off.

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by Enki Thanks man, but you forgot to add that I cruised on down with no sleep. The drive home was....interesting. Car still runs like a champ. Per Phate's advice, just added a bunch of timing to it and hopefully I can get the MAF dialed in. Also, now I know I'm not crazy and converting to e85 has actually made the engine a hell of a lot more responsive at lower throttle inputs (my shifting has become somewhat rough again, and touching the throttle at 80 = decent increase in speed without boost).

I've noticed this as well. The increased timing definitely increases engine response.

Gotta be smooooooth with those shifts on date night or she'll think you can't drive haha!

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Originally Posted by glorifiedbozo Yes you would be correct. In fact based on @silvapain's thread I would say need to atleast have an AP and upgraded HPFP before going full E85. I would also recommend SRI, DP, and RMM because that's really what's gonna set off the butt dyno off.

I don't think that phate has a dp and he's making a bigillion lbft of torque.

But, I can't imagine all that power w/o an rmm... Seems like the block would end up in your lap lol!

[Enki]

I thought he did have a downpipe. I have a gutted stock and am near 366 torque corrected, if that helps.

[XLT_66]

Here is my timing table after spending about 2 hours on our dyno. Granted, we were playing with a lot of other stuff besides the timing but this very linear timing map, look at the 2.0 load values since we're over 2.0 the entire pull. Car seems to be running very very well right now.

On 50/50 mix, I made 304WHP/387WTQ in 4th gear on our AWD Mustang Dyno before correction factor brought me down to 297WHP/381WTQ. We pushed it to 22* but the gains were so small that I backed them down again to 20*.



93 Oct @ 18* vs. E85 @ 20* Quite a bit of area between them in the low a mid-range. Only issues we're having is getting the AFR to just sit flat the entire run. It's not going off by enough for me to worry and frankly, I'm thinking I need a stiffer spring in my BPV.

[phate]

Excellent information - that's the first solid data set we have for timing on 50/50.

[SWAY]

Damn i need to get my ass in gear and go to the dyno and post up some numbers, im on stock rmm as well bc my jbr broke and stock dp.

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Originally Posted by SWAY Damn i need to get my ass in gear and go to the dyno and post up some numbers, im on stock rmm as well bc my jbr broke and stock dp.

Damn your JBR broke? How many miles and what duro?

[RichieRichness]

@XLT_66 what is your AFR target? It looks like 11.8? What were you targeting when you were running only a couple gallons of e85?

[SWAY]

Not sure how many miles I got it in mid may prolly like 2k was the 80 duro, the bushing was fucked up soon as I stocked back I was hooked on no vibes haha. Ima bout to get the moly shits insane

Sent from my evo 3d

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

@XLT_66 u mention unstable afrs at higher rpms. I am on 4 gallons and EVERY TIME I flash a new map my afrs go fucking nuts from 5500 on. In fact I fucked w my maf cal for a long time cuz of it until I gave up and noticed that after like 5 pulls, they stabilize. It's kinda scary to see my afrs hi 12.79 every now and then, but luckily the eth quells the kr:

Also, unrelated, I did see substantial and persistent kr (2.4) when I tried 20° at 6500. So it SEEMS I am still kr limited.

[bewsted]

Originally Posted by XLT_66 Here is my timing table after spending about 2 hours on our dyno. Granted, we were playing with a lot of other stuff besides the timing but this very linear timing map, look at the 2.0 load values since we're over 2.0 the entire pull. Car seems to be running very very well right now. On 50/50 mix, I made 304WHP/387WTQ in 4th gear on our AWD Mustang Dyno before correction factor brought me down to 297WHP/381WTQ. We pushed it to 22* but the gains were so small that I backed them down again to 20*. 93 Oct @ 18* vs. E85 @ 20* Quite a bit of area between them in the low a mid-range. Only issues we're having is getting the AFR to just sit flat the entire run. It's not going off by enough for me to worry and frankly, I'm thinking I need a stiffer spring in my BPV.

@Bucker.....read and learn.....22 * is too much nutsack breath!

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by bewsted @Bucker.....read and learn.....22 * is too much nutsack breath!

I agree I stick near 20 now myself and refuse to push a tune over that point.