E85 Discussion - HPFP lubrication and Flow issues

[Dano]

Originally Posted by bewsted Your better off to run 50/50 on a 6 Gallon basis.... As you can't squeeze much more than 13 gallons in the car and putting 6.5 in would be tough

true dat...I run on a 12 gallon basis as its impossible to rely on getting anymore in there so the mix balances out after a few tanks...besides I don't like driving around with my fuel light on and only 2 stations in town, both at the same end of town.

I think before I started this I could only get about 12.5 in when the light was on and the needle at E.

Originally Posted by Ziggo Going backwards a little bit to the timing on BT setups. I was knock limited at 17* Peak in 90*F ambients with a 3/9 mix @ 12.0AFR @ 22psi/2.4 load. With lower temperatures I could probably push timing a little further but am not interested in making a cold weather only tune. Just another datapoint. Zigatapatalka

if only we had the higher valued load axis...then you lower advance with the lower load points so you have an all weather tune with the most timing for each season.

@David@COBB where are those load axis?

[bewsted]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 So true. I have had a few occasions when the last light of my fuel gauge has gone off, drove a bit, put in 7 gallons of e85, and only fit about 6.5 gallons of 93.

Trust me i had to run on 7/6 a couple times before I figured out I wasn't going to fit another gallon in it.

Originally Posted by Dano true dat...I run on a 12 gallon basis as its impossible to rely on getting anymore in there so the mix balances out after a few tanks...besides I don't like driving around with my fuel light on and only 2 stations in town, both at the same end of town. I think before I started this I could only get about 12.5 in when the light was on and the needle at E. if only we had the higher valued load axis...then you lower advance with the lower load points so you have an all weather tune with the most timing for each season. @David@COBB where are those load axis?

Problem solved...boost tune!

[XLT_66]

So, has anyone running E85 been having any issues with the HPFP making a lot of noise? What started as a belief that my turbo was crapping out (which it is) it is also found that my HPFP is making a lot of noise on cold starts. I'll be taking it apart this weekend to have a look at things but from the sound of it, it's inevitable for it to not be scoring the crap out of the internals with the sounds its making. I get the squeaky sounds for a little bit and a "gurgling" of sorts but engine idle and function seems to remain normal. The sounds persist when the throttle is blipped during the first 15-20 seconds after stating the car.

I can't comment on wither or not it is still functioning at high pressure or not as I have my car set on 0% WGDC until I can swap the snail but it sounds terrible.

The issue didn't come up until after I put in 100% corn is the reason I post this here. Sure, it could have happened at any point in time but the fact that it happened when I put in the corn is pretty interesting.

[Cobb Tuning]

Originally Posted by Dano true dat...I run on a 12 gallon basis as its impossible to rely on getting anymore in there so the mix balances out after a few tanks...besides I don't like driving around with my fuel light on and only 2 stations in town, both at the same end of town. I think before I started this I could only get about 12.5 in when the light was on and the needle at E. if only we had the higher valued load axis...then you lower advance with the lower load points so you have an all weather tune with the most timing for each season. @David@COBB where are those load axis?

Are you referring to MAF Load axis? or fuel? or something else?

-David@COBB

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by XLT_66 So, has anyone running E85 been having any issues with the HPFP making a lot of noise? What started as a belief that my turbo was crapping out (which it is) it is also found that my HPFP is making a lot of noise on cold starts. I'll be taking it apart this weekend to have a look at things but from the sound of it, it's inevitable for it to not be scoring the crap out of the internals with the sounds its making. I get the squeaky sounds for a little bit and a "gurgling" of sorts but engine idle and function seems to remain normal. The sounds persist when the throttle is blipped during the first 15-20 seconds after stating the car. I can't comment on wither or not it is still functioning at high pressure or not as I have my car set on 0% WGDC until I can swap the snail but it sounds terrible. The issue didn't come up until after I put in 100% corn is the reason I post this here. Sure, it could have happened at any point in time but the fact that it happened when I put in the corn is pretty interesting.

Dicked. I think it's safe to say that these cars aren't diggin 100% E85. Even 25/75, or at most 50/50, would net us it's full benefits without all these hardware issues we keep seeing.

My car LOVED 25/75.

[speedms6]

@XLT_66 take a look here Squeaky sound on startup/spoolup i dont run e85 and have this issue sounds like others are, seems to go away once the engine gets warm, only noticed it recently when it got cold out

@David@COBB i think he means the load axis in the ignition adv. tables

[Dano]

Originally Posted by David@COBB Are you referring to MAF Load axis? or fuel? or something else? -David@COBB

sorry, Ign load axis to dial in timing above 2.0. This way you could run more timing in the cooler AMB temps/higher load values and walk those commanded values down by say .5* per every two load axis rows so that in the summer months you run less timing when knock is more likely to occur.

BT cars really need this but even K04 cars are sustaining load values above 2.0. I don't think we need the resolution at .31 load in the HT table but if both the LT and HT tables have to use the same axis maybe we can reduce the rez and have a higher load ceiling.

just something for the "wish list" which I believe is already there...maybe its just not possible IDK.

[mrmonk7663]

I never fill the car up. The way I do my mix is to keep the same proportion, and I have been doing it for 2 months so my tank is "mixed" even when low fuel. For my 6 gallon mix I simply fill up with 3 gallons of E and 5 gallons of 93. Regardless of whats left in the tank, it is still a blended e85 mix. This strategy has netted pretty good consistency. Stepping up to 50/50 I will simply go 4 gallons of E to 4 gallons of 93 when the tank is low. So 4 percent, thanks guys.

[speedms6]

Ethanol Calculators

you can also use this website to find out how much to add, for some reason it doesnt load on my work comp but does at home

[wolly6973]

Those of you adding by the gallon make sure to pay attention to whether or not your regular gas has ethanol mixed in and figure that into your calculations.

The gas I get already has 10% ethanol, so I have to figure accordingly when I fill up.

[XLT_66]

Originally Posted by speedms6 @XLT_66 take a look here Squeaky sound on startup/spoolup i dont run e85 and have this issue sounds like others are, seems to go away once the engine gets warm, only noticed it recently when it got cold out @David@COBB i think he means the load axis in the ignition adv. tables

Yeah, I get the exact same sound from the outside. Goes away pretty quickly but that is not a good sound at all. The squeak is two metals rubbing on each other in a bad way. We'll find out soon when I open up the HPFP.

Now, the gurgling sound I can hear inside cabin that occurs only when that squeak is going on is just odd, no matter how you look at it.

FWIW, I'm running the newest version of the KMD internals

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by XLT_66 So, has anyone running E85 been having any issues with the HPFP making a lot of noise? What started as a belief that my turbo was crapping out (which it is) it is also found that my HPFP is making a lot of noise on cold starts. I'll be taking it apart this weekend to have a look at things but from the sound of it, it's inevitable for it to not be scoring the crap out of the internals with the sounds its making. I get the squeaky sounds for a little bit and a "gurgling" of sorts but engine idle and function seems to remain normal. The sounds persist when the throttle is blipped during the first 15-20 seconds after stating the car. I can't comment on wither or not it is still functioning at high pressure or not as I have my car set on 0% WGDC until I can swap the snail but it sounds terrible. The issue didn't come up until after I put in 100% corn is the reason I post this here. Sure, it could have happened at any point in time but the fact that it happened when I put in the corn is pretty interesting.

XLT, I have the chirp, as well as a much more pronounced ticking (in time with the cam), but I haven't got the gurgle (yet). LOL.

I'm only on 50/50, and think that is where I am going to stay for now.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

When you say chirp, do u mean for like 1 second on a cold start? It almost sounds like a belt slipping but just for 1 second and not again until the next cold start.

[mazdafreak]

Originally Posted by Ckmazdaspeed3 When you say chirp, do u mean for like 1 second on a cold start? It almost sounds like a belt slipping but just for 1 second and not again until the next cold start.

Thought the same thing, till i had like 5 of my mechanics huddle around my engine and said it was coming from the pump area.

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 XLT, I have the chirp, as well as a much more pronounced ticking (in time with the cam), but I haven't got the gurgle (yet). LOL. I'm only on 50/50, and think that is where I am going to stay for now.

I kno me and rfinkle both have this issue, and i still do get the sound once in awhile.....but i found out it is the hpfp, since i was full e85.....but if u prime the pump 1 or 2 times before starting, it will not chrip/spinning grinding sound ppl are hearing.


Im gonna take apart the spill valve and clean it, which i think is causing the problem....unless im rly getting bad lube to the cdfp since the switch to 85....never had the problem till i switched to 85...or could be a faulty cp-ecdfp

[dougefresh_]

Going back to my Perrin ebcs, and as soon as I get the 3-bar map sensor, I'll be doing a load based tune. As soon as the 93oct + methanol map is done (26psi), I'll be running the 93oct + meth + eth.... E30 mixture. Saving for a pro-tune.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Ckmazdaspeed3 When you say chirp, do u mean for like 1 second on a cold start? It almost sounds like a belt slipping but just for 1 second and not again until the next cold start.

Yes, and also when blipping the throttle.

[mazdafreak]

I only get it at cold start up...never while driving or giving throttle.

[mrmonk7663]

I get the chirping ONLY on cold start. I really thought it was the belt. I've added it ever since I put E in the car....even on a 3 gallon to full tank mix.

[speedms6]

Originally Posted by XLT_66 Yeah, I get the exact same sound from the outside. Goes away pretty quickly but that is not a good sound at all. The squeak is two metals rubbing on each other in a bad way. We'll find out soon when I open up the HPFP. Now, the gurgling sound I can hear inside cabin that occurs only when that squeak is going on is just odd, no matter how you look at it. FWIW, I'm running the newest version of the KMD internals

yeah i assumed thats what the sounds was, i get it right as i start it up and idle high for a couple seconds and only if i hit 1800 fuel press. while the car isnt warm, otherwise i dont hear it.

keep us posted, i did run one tank of 4 gal e85/12gal gas monthsss ago but i dont think that could be enough just from one time

also just put in 6 gal e85 and 10 gal gas tonight, car is a beasttt, posting my results here as we speak if anybody is interested

smoothing out my tune

[Dano]

*knocks on wood*

I have the unfortunate luxury of having two new CDFPs...lol

on 93 my PTP pump was as quiet as a mouse. My CPE rattles like a giant POS with slight throttle lift. I got it after I was already on E25ish and it rattled from the beginning.

On E35 my PTP pump was quite...don't know what pumps/internals you guys have but this might be good additional information for the E85 DB.

PTP pump 10K total miles with 2K E35
CPE 4K miles all with E35.

[sleepyspeed6]

I have been getting this same noise you guys are talking about, I have stock hpfp internals. I just thought the sound was coming from my intake.

Also to add I am on 5.5 eth 5.5 gas.

Brownie goes back to hiding in the shadowy corner

[dougefresh_]

The shop I'm stopping by tomorrow has a device you hook up to the fuel system that can detect the actual %Ethanol in your tank. I may go there for a pro-tune, then throw in a few gallons of E85 until I hit E30, and then re-tune with MOAR timing. I can do both maps there for $500 on a Mustang Dyno, and have them left unlocked. I've met and talked to the tuner before. He knows his stuff.

I'll start the preliminary tuning tomorrow once I hook up the rest of the Perrin. Once I get the upgraded map sensor, I'll be running high 2s to low 3s load targets, and then higher when running E85. If I get this load tune down the first time, I shouldn't have to mess with it really (load/gear).

[mrmonk7663]

Good luck with the tune man!!!

[bewsted]

Originally Posted by sleepyspeed6 I have been getting this same noise you guys are talking about, I have stock hpfp internals. I just thought the sound was coming from my intake. Also to add I am on 5.5 eth 5.5 gas. Brownie goes back to hiding in the shadowy corner

brownie better get internals

@silvapain or @phate


Have you guys fully determined the gunk is due to oil pass into the fuel side of the pump?

[rfinkle2]

I don't know how the factory pump could possibly be holding pressure with a 5 gallon mix...

[Enki]

Originally Posted by bewsted Have you guys fully determined the gunk is due to oil pass into the fuel side of the pump?

Black residue is certainly from oil; sticky residue (which has no color) is from the fuel itself.

[Evan@COBB]

I ran my car down to fumes in the tank last night and filled it back up with 100% 93 octane. This morning, after the car sat from 6:30PM-8:30AM, I fired it up and there was no sound from the HPFP.

The past 3 weeks it has been squealing and gurgling at me if it sits for more than 4 hours or so.

So...looks like we have a culprit. (Well, we already knew what the cause was but I guess this confirms it?)

[phate]

I'm about on E running 93. I'm going to switch back to E85 (straight) and see if I hear this chirping you guys mention. My car is NOISY because of the Fidanza flywheel and TRZ trans mount, so that may be why I never noticed it before.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Evan@COBB I ran my car down to fumes in the tank last night and filled it back up with 100% 93 octane. This morning, after the car sat from 6:30PM-8:30AM, I fired it up and there was no sound from the HPFP. The past 3 weeks it has been squealing and gurgling at me if it sits for more than 4 hours or so. So...looks like we have a culprit. (Well, we already knew what the cause was but I guess this confirms it?)

Were you running Marv Mistry Oil in the E

Iirc both @phate and @silvapain run it and I don't they have reported any noise.

If not its worth a try.


Tappin

[kritz]

@Dano
How mucho of the MMO/tank? Me haz the squeeks on 50/50.

[rfinkle2]

They both have the noises (Silvapain and Phate).

Edit: Maybe Phate doesn't have noise, but I'm pretty sure Silvapain does (I'm 100% sure Enki does).

I've tried both Marvel Mystery Oil (as has Silvapain, I tried it on his suggestion) and Lucas Fuel additive with no change in noise.

Squeaky squeak!!

Squeaky sound on startup/spoolup

[Dano]

Originally Posted by kritz @Dano How mucho of the MMO/tank? Me haz the squeeks on 50/50.

I haven't needed to use any on E35 and don't know what the mix is. I do have a question for the experts. Do you see any reason to run MMO with E concentrations up to and including 5050? I would think the petrol would provide enough lube.

Also, since our pumps seem to have trouble with 100% E why not try double or triple the amount of MMO than suggested by them? Are there any downsides?

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 They both have the noises (Silvapain and Phate). Edit: Maybe Phate doesn't have noise, but I'm pretty sure Silvapain does (I'm 100% sure Enki does). I've tried both Marvel Mystery Oil (as has Silvapain, I tried it on his suggestion) and Lucas Fuel additive with no change in noise. Squeaky squeak!! Squeaky sound on startup/spoolup

thanks finkle for keeping me inline...my brain is getting too old to post from memory...lol

Phate did just post he hasn't heard any noise but his car is noisy...lol.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Ckmazdaspeed3 yeah, when you posted your timing earlier, i noticed that and you may be right. I just REALLY HOPE that we can find the smoking gun, whatever it is. How often do you WOT and how many miles do you put on your car a month? I only ask cuz I do around 50-100 miles a day and get at least 3 and up to 10 pulls in there... not always full pulls.

missed this...I work from home so don't drive my car near that much...100 miles a month...lol

Its like the Dos Equis most interesting man alive

"I don't drive much but when I do I am WOT the entire time"

When I am working on a tune I prab get in 20 WOT runs a day over the weekend.

[Evan@COBB]

Never put any MMO or other additives into the tank. I never had any issues when running 50/50 mix for 2500 miles.

Far as I'm concerned, if you don't mind the fact that you have to use two pumps every fill up then I wouldn't run beyond a 50/50 mix. You get all/most of the power/timing benefits of running full E85, slightly better MPG, and as far as my car was concerned, not a single problem at all.

One thing you need to keep track of is your oil, though. Granted I had some hard track miles on my last batch of oil, but at 3500 miles, it was completely broken down and very thin, even when cool and smelled of corn. I would be diligent with you oil changes if you're running the E.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Evan@COBB One thing you need to keep track of is your oil, though. Granted I had some hard track miles on my last batch of oil, but at 3500 miles, it was completely broken down and very thin, even when cool and smelled of corn. I would be diligent with you oil changes if you're running the E.

Not sure I completely agree with that. I had >6k miles on one oil change which included tail of the dragon (the trip where things got so goddamn hot, it smelled like someone was welding under my hood, lol), dyno tuning, and god knows how many 100's of wot street pulls. My oil analysis came back the best it ever has. Did you have yours analyzed?

And no, for the question above, I don't run MMO or any other additive.

[phate]

Guys, I have a confession: I've been running 93 over the past couple weeks trying to nail down a solid tune for when I get caught in a spot that doesn't have E85. I got it to a point where I was getting pretty comfortable with it, timing was pretty solid, boost was pretty solid. I was starting to think E85 doesn't make that much of a difference compared to a proper 93 octane tune.

Then comes this morning. As I posted above, I wanted to fill with E85 to check the 'chirp' which some are hearing. So I'm on empty heading to work and fill up with the maize. Threw on one of my E85 tunes which I thought was for winter, and gave it a few miles to allow the E85 to permeate throughout the system.

A few miles out I gave it a quick 3rd-4th blip and it was one of those moments where you're just like "wtf did I just do?". The fucking car, in a matter of 5 minutes, went from calm, cool, collected, pulling hard MS3; to an absolutely furious animal. I didn't realize just how much of a change it results in. Most of the time I have been running E85, I've been working on one thing or another, working things up slowly. It hasn't been this 'flip of the switch' sort of change. I am, once again, in complete awe of how E85 changes this car.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by phate Guys, I have a confession: I've been running 93 over the past couple weeks trying to nail down a solid tune for when I get caught in a spot that doesn't have E85. I got it to a point where I was getting pretty comfortable with it, timing was pretty solid, boost was pretty solid. I was starting to think E85 doesn't make that much of a difference compared to a proper 93 octane tune. Then comes this morning. As I posted above, I wanted to fill with E85 to check the 'chirp' which some are hearing. So I'm on empty heading to work and fill up with the maize. Threw on one of my E85 tunes which I thought was for winter, and gave it a few miles to allow the E85 to permeate throughout the system. A few miles out I gave it a quick 3rd-4th blip and it was one of those moments where you're just like "wtf did I just do?". The fucking car, in a matter of 5 minutes, went from calm, cool, collected, pulling hard MS3; to an absolutely furious animal. I didn't realize just how much of a change it results in. Most of the time I have been running E85, I've been working on one thing or another, working things up slowly. It hasn't been this 'flip of the switch' sort of change. I am, once again, in complete awe of how E85 changes this car.

I think that the guys would collectively absolve you of your sins!

[silvapain]

I've been running the recommended 4oz MMO to 10 gallons of fuel, and I still have to pull my spill valve and clean it every 200-300 miles. Been using MMO for about 1500 miles. I am confident in saying that MMO at the recommended concentration does not help.

I just ordered some Klotz Uplon Fuel Lube from Summit Racing for the hell of it. I'll see if this is any less worthless than MMO.


Tapadatass

[Enki]

I no longer have the chirp. Yesterday on my way home, I had no pressure, and didn't this morning when I went to run some errands. I put yet more naphtha in the tank (up to close to half a gallon now) and on the way back (about 20 miles in to the trip) pressure started coming back; when I parked it and went to shut it down, it was trying to hold pressure but occasionally dipped to sub 500 (750 commanded at idle).

I'm going to add more and see if it helps; I am fairly certain my pump issues are due to the internals not quite fitting properly, though. Last I checked, manually actuating the piston (by hand outside the car), it felt squishy rather than linear; it also took far too long for the spring to push the piston the rest of the way out of the pump (I could watch it slowly slide out).

On the additive front, I'm pretty certain any insignificant amount of additive (less than 20:1 ratio of fuel to additive) isn't going to do shit for our cars. Port injected maybe, but tolerances are extremely tight in our pumps.

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

So just got caught up here, and realized I need to get off my dead ass and update my thread. I went up to visit @phate last weekend and had some issues. I will get it all up tomorrow in my thread.

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