E85 Discussion - HPFP lubrication and Flow issues

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by Zbrit00x im looking to get an e85 tune with a 3 or 4 gallon blend of e85, 10 gallon 91. After my tune I was looking to run just 91 again because of availability of e85 and only use it when I crave more from my dd. Anyone think I would be seeing any specific problems when swapping out tunes and gas from e85 to 91 intermittently.

other than your maf curve being off no....You will need to add about 5% to maf with 3 gallons.

[Enki]

Or if you really wanted you could just dial your AFRs .5 richer to hit target with no MAF cal like I did, and be able to run both fuels without too much issue (other than possibly too much timing on the e mix tune).

[mazdafreak]

Well i took apart the pump the other day...i havent touched/cleaned the pump in months and ran a good couple full 85 tanks of gas, and well....it was completely spotless....not one thing of gunk or anything.


I think, starting full 85 with way lower miles than what bozo and phate had on the car at the time, is why i havent gotten any gunk build up yet.....i started 85 with around 32,xxx miles, and they started it with 50K+. could be a factor.

Im going to seafoam the tank soon, before i go back on 85 once it starts to warm up....see if pump gets dirty or anything.

[Enki]

You're on a timer, son. The clock has started, and when cleaning the spill valve doesn't cut it anymore, you'll start eyeing the pumps with the non yellow handles while fondly remembering the good ole days.

[mazdafreak]

haha.....i kno.....matter of time, but i havent had the gunk buildup like they had...i figured i would have saw something, but nothing just yet.

Is there a fuel line etc that is 85 compatable that could be installed on the speed that could help with future problems???


@forcedinduktion said there is a new pump out, 265 or something for the tank that is 85 compatable....which could help for the intake pump i guess.

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by Zbrit00x im looking to get an e85 tune with a 3 or 4 gallon blend of e85, 10 gallon 91. After my tune I was looking to run just 91 again because of availability of e85 and only use it when I crave more from my dd. Anyone think I would be seeing any specific problems when swapping out tunes and gas from e85 to 91 intermittently.

Nope!

[mrmonk7663]

Details on said pump and how it could help our overall fueling capabilities, if any?

Originally Posted by mazdafreak haha.....i kno.....matter of time, but i havent had the gunk buildup like they had...i figured i would have saw something, but nothing just yet. Is there a fuel line etc that is 85 compatable that could be installed on the speed that could help with future problems??? @forcedinduktion said there is a new pump out, 265 or something for the tank that is 85 compatable....which could help for the intake pump i guess.

[mazdafreak]

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 Details on said pump and how it could help our overall fueling capabilities, if any?

Well i kno, @phate changed his intake pump, but said it could have been just the filter clogged or something.....I would think the intake pump would help longer term since its 85 compatable....but dont quote me on that.

((Im just giving advise of the pump that came out being 85 compatable...which i would say would help down the road with one less problem u would have to worry about....but idk lol))



Once a fuel system upgrade is finally produce for our cars, i would love to run full 85 on bt....and im guessing that intake pump would help....but would like to kno, if there is any fuel line etc, upgrades that is 85 compatable....cause i kno no one has cut open a fuel line to see if any corrision etc is happening in the lines without us knowing till something happens.

[Enki]

Phate's initial problems were due to both spill valve and ITP getting gummed up. The problem of which I speak currently has no solution, but both myself and I think Bucks are working on it from different angles.

[forcedinduktion]

Deatschwerks DW65 Series 265lph Drop-in Compact Fuel Pump (Mazdaspeed 3 & 6) - Modern Automotive Performance

[J-Liss]

One solution to the fuel lines which i just purchased is to convert to steel braided teflon lines which are ethanol compatiable.

[Enki]

Is that even needed? Doesn't seem to be to me.

[J-Liss]

We dont know yet need to see the longevity effect of e on our cars. I know on the n.a. 3 when boosted on e it eats the lines

[mrmonk7663]

Links and pricing information for the lines please. Did you have to buy additional fittings to attach to stock lines?

Originally Posted by J-Liss One solution to the fuel lines which i just purchased is to convert to steel braided teflon lines which are ethanol compatiable.

[mazdafreak]

That's why I asked too.....cause we can't see anything happening in the fuel lines....unless someone wanted to cut the line open and see. Running new lines+85 compatable itp, I would feel a lil better about.running 85 all the time ((besides winter))

[RichieRichness]

Question for those who have fully tuned on e85 mixes. What power gains are you seeing between a 3 gallon mix and 50/50 mix? Because it looks like most people are only pushing a couple extra degrees of timing between these two mixes. I ask because I'm tuning a couple cars on 3 gal e85 mixes and vd numbers are avg 315hp 350 tq corrected @ 20 psi. One of my tunee's wants to go 50/50 mix but I don't see people making massive gains beyond a 3 gal mix. I haven't gone 50/50 on my own car because I like getting 20+mpg.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Enki]

If any gains are to be had, it's likely from airflow and not timing.

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by Enki If any gains are to be had, it's likely from airflow and not timing.

I'm currently seeing 340 g/s at 12.1 afr


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[superskaterxes]

i would say theres no gains after 5050 and its easier to fill up

[phate]

I wouldn't say there are no gains, but I think the gains would probably be no more than 10-15hp. We need better testing, not just random vd samples....meaning we need proper dyno testing.

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by phate I wouldn't say there are no gains, but I think the gains would probably be no more than 10-15hp. We need better testing, not just random vd samples....meaning we need proper dyno testing.

I'll have actual dyno results on both cars by next weekend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[phate]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness I'll have actual dyno results on both cars by next weekend. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They won't be comparable results, so they are just numbers in the air. What I meant was we need to take a full E85 car (like mine) tune it on a dyno (like mine), then fill with 50/50 or whatever mix and redo the dyno tuning. Then we will have comparable results.

[Enki]

I had .1 volts more airflow at the MAF on pure e from where I am now, with only 2 degrees more timing. Pretty sure 2 degrees isn't gonna net me that much more airflow. Oh, and that was when it was hotter.

[cld12pk2go]

So here are the results from a guy I recently tuned:

The mods were:
2008 MS3
- K04
- COBB AP
- CorkSport TMIC
- Denso ITV22 (Gapped .28)
- HPFP Internals
- HKS Hi-Power CBE
- SURE Areos SRI
- StreetUnit Test Pipe
- Turboxs Downpipe
- Turbosmart Dual Port BOV (set to 50/50)


Using Cali 91 octane cat urine for fueling.

The baseline was using the OTS Stage2+SUR2+TIH+IC 91 v210 tune.

The 91 octane log was the most I could squeeze out without KR with the sucktastic Cali "premium" fuel.

The E85 log was just with 2 gal of E85 added per tank (the guy is an hour away from the nearest E85 pump so the minimal required to allow for extra timing is desired to minimize trips for E85), which allowed 3.5-6° additional timing from 4000+ and another 1.5-2° down low.



I was quite impressed with how much extra timing was allowed by the 2 gal of E85.

OTS timing:




Best 91 octane timing:



2 gal E85 timing:


I probably could have pushed another 1-2° from 3000-3500 and 5500-7000 RPMs, but wanted to play conservative. I did get small hits of KR in the 4000-5000 range intermittently at the current timing, but nothing overly concerning.

[09speedaddict]

Lots of great info in this. Thanks phate

[sleepyspeed6]

Alright so I thought I would post this here. My car wont hold boost, thats the reason for it falling off so bad

My mods are intake, TIP, AP, injector seals, 3 gal of E85, 16* timing.


EDIT: This is vs my 91 tune



I just ordered a down pipe, fuel pump, and a frontmount, bpv.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by sleepyspeed6 Alright so I thought I would post this here. My car wont hold boost, thats the reason for it falling off so bad My mods are intake, TIP, AP, injector seals, 3 gal of E85, 16* timing. EDIT: This is vs my 91 tune I just ordered a down pipe, fuel pump, and a frontmount, bpv.

Wait, you're running an E85 mix with no internals?

Can I have your injector seals when you blow your engine?


Tapadatass

[phate]

He's likely at high elevation and can get away with it. Less air ftl.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by phate He's likely at high elevation and can get away with it. Less air ftl.

Damn. I really wanted those injector seals.


Tapadatass

[sleepyspeed6]

I don't have a fueling issue. I am at a higher elevation like phate said, also why I am runing such high psi.

I just ordered a autotech pump last thursday

[BigjohnB20]

I have similar mods as sleepyspeed6 and occasionally run a 2.5/10 E85/91 mix with OEM internals. The map I run with the E is not really much more aggressive than my 91 map. I mostly run it in the summer when it gets hot and I almost need it to just run very moderate timing.

Anyway, I monitor my FP pretty religiously and I have never seen it drop to dangerous levels. Even at low elevation and 18psi tappering. I do have internals already that I need to get in, but for now the stockers seem to be doing fine for me.

[rfinkle2]

E85 Beta, now live on ATR

and thanks to Enki:

Fuel mix cheat sheets

[adlpb]

Is anyone else experiencing Fuel Level Sensor problems? I started having the issue below, and I think E85 might be playing a role in it...

Fuel Level Sensor issues

[phate]

Originally Posted by adlpb Is anyone else experiencing Fuel Level Sensor problems? I started having the issue below, and I think E85 might be playing a role in it... Fuel Level Sensor issues

When I pulled and replaced my in-tank pump, the fuel level float assembly looked fine, just like the rest of the assembly (minus the filter). I don't remember that the 2nd gen's had a different part # for that stuff, but I could check for you if you are interested.

[adlpb]

Originally Posted by phate When I pulled and replaced my in-tank pump, the fuel level float assembly looked fine, just like the rest of the assembly (minus the filter). I don't remember that the 2nd gen's had a different part # for that stuff, but I could check for you if you are interested.

Thanks phate, that would be nice. For some reason, both cars having this issue are genpus. And for an even stranger reason, we both live in the same city and most likely get E85 from the same station...

[phate]

Originally Posted by adlpb Thanks phate, that would be nice. For some reason, both cars having this issue are genpus. And for an even stranger reason, we both live in the same city and most likely get E85 from the same station...

Definitely different part #'s, and not of the supersession type:

2007-2009 Fuel Level - B37F-60-960A

2010-2011 Fuel Level - BBN6-60-960

I can't tell what changed, though :/

[phate]

Sadly, my second set of fuel pump internals has gone downhill. These were my warrantied KMD's, and they were scarred very badly. I've run straight E85, straight gas, and a few mixes with them. I am currently on 5050.

Autotech's have been ordered. I think I'll order a whole new pump so I can have a brand new housing and whatnot to run them in. This might also give us a better idea if it's the seal condition causing the gunk.

Many thanks to @JP@edgeautosport.com for getting those internals and other random parts to my door so quickly.

[Enki]

Should warrantee the KMDs and sell the new set to pay for the Autotechs.

BTW, last I looked I had minor scoring in the collar on mine. Piston looked brand new though.

[bewsted]

autotech or gtfo

[wolly6973]

I just switched to 100% E85 this week, after being on a 30% blend for the last year or so. Some wierd shit went down this morning though.

I started the car to go to work and it was stuttering and wanting to die. The fuel gauge showed no bars and the fuel light was on. I am 99.999% positive I had almost a half tank when I parked it in my garage last night.

So I jump out and dump some regular gas in from the can sitting there for the mower. Everything smooths out immediately and I head out to the gas station. FP is normal on the way there. When I get to 5 gallons the pump clicks off. I figured no biggie, it happens, and I restarted. Clicked off again. Started again slowly and I could hear it coming up the fill tube as it does when it is almost full and it clicked off. 5.5 gallons got in the tank.

Get back in the car and the gauge now shows 1/2 full. FP is just fine and I have no idea what is going on. I had flashed a new map the day before, so I re-flashed back to the previous map just to rule out a variable, since that is the only thing that has been changed/touched recently.

WTF!?!