Thanks for posting. Good to see more verification falling in line with the others.

Compared to your street tune, how did it change? I remember talking about this in another thread, but don't remember the timing curve.

I'll add the curve to the op when I'm at a computer.

I was only 1.5* away from MBT with the e-tune.:fingersx:

Here are all 6 pulls from my last dyno session running an ~E20 Blend with about ~15% of my total fueling from Meth:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...ps088540e2.jpg

Here is my breakdown of the benefit I obtained from the extra timing:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...psaa806230.jpg

Basically, I normalized the power gain based upon hp per g/s to try to remove the impact of changes in MAF flow per pull, which can influence the end result. Per this analysis, I continued to gain power per g/s of MAF flow all the way up to my final timing (never found MBT)…It would appear that the diff between pulls 2-3 were somewhat anomalous in the 6000-6500 RPM range...

subbed

So I've read through this thread and the only person I saw that posted a 2.5gal mix timing curve was @Lex. His peak timing numbers are about in line with what I am running, but I was wondering where could I improve? Can I add more up top? I'm going to smooth the mid-range a bit to get my torque curve looking better. Here is my timing as it sits now. My number one goal is not to blow my motor so nothing too aggressive but a bit more power up top would be nice.

Thanks for any help

http://imageshack.us/a/img593/1530/49566647.jpg

Let knock be your guide. Pretty sure you can't hit MBT on a 2.5 mix so find knock in each rpm column along your load curve and then back off a bit. Advancing timing in .5* increments is a safe way to do it. A knock decay rate of 150 will ensure that knock is localized to the area it's happening and doesn't perpetuate itself though out the run.

DO NOT let knock be your guide when running e85. Be safe, get on a dyno if you want to dial things in further than what is seen in some of these timing curves. Every car is different.

I guess what I'm asking is I've seen other mixes as low as 3 gals with timing around 16-17 in the upper regions. As e85 tuners, would you say I have any room to hit 15 or 16 degrees? Or should I just stay put where I am until I can dyno verify? Thanks again

I'd be comfortable going a little further if you think you were still gaining power. If you don't feel comfortable, a couple hundred bucks for dyno time could save you thousands on a new engine.

Edit: only on the top end. That mid range looks like a good bit of timing already.

I'll share my timing numbers. I'm running 31% though. From 4500...
12.50 16.00 18.00 20.00 21.00 19.00

Listen to @phate; He's good peeps!

Sent while eating rice

Ill bump her up a little bit and bring it down a cunt hair in the middle regions. Phate and Silva are the reason I run e85 lol

I am pretty sure you can hit MBT with a 2.5 gallon mix, but YMMV.

One thing of note is that one of the guys I tuned (GT3076 at ~26 PSI) didn't gain any power at 6500RPM beyond 14° (dyno verified) so I would certainly urge caution when taking timing up too far without some detailed feedback on MBT.

I keep gaining power up to at least 20.5° at 6500RPMs (haven't clearly found MBT yet)...

Duly noted. I didn't see BT in his sig and his present timing looked like 93 timing so I figured he had a ways to go up top with timing. I was knock limited to 18* at 6k on a three gal mix. I don't want to see anyone vent their block so I'll refrain from posting in these types of threads where destruction may be lurking just around the corner.

Is that because he's on a bigger turbo that the timing doesn't net him any greater power? I'm pretty sure I could squeeze a few extra horses from timing considering I'm running stock ko4 still

A denser charge requires less timing to reach MBT. The flame front will move faster. Typically you can't run as much timing on a smaller turbo as you can with a large one though because the smaller turbo will generate higher BATs, but due to the magic of E85 BATs don't matter so much.

Zigatapatalka

oh how I love the magic of e85 :slomo:

I am running a similarly sized turbo at similar boost/flow, yet I keep gaining power for at least another 6° compared to him...

The point is that every car is different and that assuming otherwise can be a very expensive mistake...

The moral of the story is DON'T PUSH TIMING ON E85 WITHOUT A PROPER DYNO TUNE. Don't assume that your engine can use the same timing as others posted in this thread.


Tapadatass

Another thing to consider is the potential variance in each motors mechanical timing as well as the mounting of the Crank sensor. 1-2* variance is certainly possible and I have tuned a guy who's sensor was improperly aligned making his actual advance higher than commanded/logged.

This lead to KR with very minimal timing and some head scratching for a few map revs until I had him re-align his crank to sensor setup.


Tappin

I had a speed 6 on the dyno recently and we didn't gain hardly any power above 14* at 6k. It's very important to keep run conditions and road the same if street tuning an aggressive timing curve, and I would still stay a little conservative.

Sent from your couch

What mix was that on?

That wasn't even with e85 in the tank. Just running 100% meth, d07 nozzle and obviously zero kr.

Edit: Another note that is an important detail on this tune, is that he had a warranty engine replacement a few months ago, and it's likely the crank sensor is slightly off.

so I followed the advice from you guys..made timing 15* @ RL and changed the 3500 and 4000 values to 6 and 8 respectively. Is there room for more boost on a 2.5gal mix? This is my vdyno from last night, weight is 400 because both myself and friend were in the car as well as a 5 gal tank of e85 and a subwoofer box that takes up my entire trunk.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...83348607_o.jpg

Occ. Weight 400lbs??????????????????

RCP.

I totally missed that part. LMFAO!!!!!!!! :buttkick:

i never got around to getting a different setup I just pulled it straight out of my truck thing is no joke ha
http://imageshack.us/a/img809/2661/dsc00061e.jpg

so being as this is mostly about timing is anyone against discussing timing on meth since i dont have access to e85 up here in anchorage alaska...i will be jumping on a dyno very soon. using VD as my help i was actually able to hit Phates timing and still showed power being made. my timing is exactly as Phates is in OP up top. im running 90oct (the highest avail in alaska) along with 50/50 meth. i run a 1gal/hr nozzle pre turbo and 6gal/hr pre throttle body. vd numbers showed 325hp/410 iirc. im going to drop timing back down since yall fuckers making me nervous and go up all over again on the dyno.

since im at work ill post this log just to tide yall over until i can post a vd

if this is not ok to post here feel free to delete.

That is quite aggressive. More aggressive than what I feel comfortable with especially not being on a real dyno.

I completely understand as well that's why I'm gonna drop it down some until u get back on a dyno. I don't get how I don't knock though. Motor is built and I'm sure ambient temps along with being at sea level has an effect on this. We just recently got a decent dyno in anchorage though and guy said I can make as many pulls for 100$ so I'm gonna take that deal and see what I come up with. Vd pisses me off these days.

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Thanks for chiming in as well lex

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Backed off about 4* through whole range and dropped boost as well. Gonna get on the dyno this weekend. How are you guys finding your power points? Are you adding a degree on top of baseline run to find benefits and then adjusting accordingly? Just want to have some tips and tricks to use when I go this weekend. Thanks guys

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You can add timing until power plateaus (sans knock). That last point where you pick up power is MBT.

Ok roger that. Then back off a degree or so from what I've seen. I've got too much damn money in this bus to fuck it up. I appreciate the help lex/phate/dj. I still don't know how to tag ppl in this shit. I know. I'm such a brownie!!!

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Something is going crazy with your maf g/s and volts. Make sure you don't have a meth leak spraying at your air filter. Seen that a few times.

I actually run a blow thru maf and pre turbo meth. But will remove it tonight because I seen the fluctuating maf as well. Even before pre turbo meth I can seem to get the damn afr's to flatline. Figured it was because I was boost based. Would you recommend going maf based instead? Come on at around 3.4-3.5 volts and go max around 4.3-4.4?

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Ahhh the meth spray is hitting the maf because the pre turbo meth. If you go back to a standard maf setup, that should clean it up. Or pull the pre turbo meth nozzle

Sent from your couch

at in front of the username, semi colon afterwards.

@ superdave2335 ;

@superdave2335;

Take it easy on those forged internals man. You are running some big timing down low.

Thanks @rfinkle2; I turned the timing down. Wayyyy down. Gonna hit the dyno next weekend and do it correctly and accurately. Thanks for the heads up guys.

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Shitty part about going back to standard draw thru is the fact that my JBR intake dosent have the recirc tube. My blow thru works well and I haven't had any issues with it. Even before when I was draw thru my meth would skew afr's. just want to find a more accurate approach to spray and keep afr's straight. That's why I mentioned trying maf based setup

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Well spraying meth before the MAF sensor is basically throwing that sensor off. Wiki how a MAF sensor works if you don't know yet but the meth droplets won't play nice with the hot wire. I'm kinda surprised youve never had any cuts with this setup.

Try spraying post MAF

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I actually spray both. Ended removing this setup for the risk. Never had issues but just wanted to be cautious. If I was not blow thru I would smash meth down the turbos throat!

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How is that blow thru MAF working out? I've read the sensor doesn't respond consistently to that setup.

It can be a little tricky the maf can seem to act finicky but as long as you take your time on maf cal it works just fine. And vta is always fun. I got a jbr wp intake with out recirc so that's another reason I opted to do it.

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Wow. I've also heard something like people only using the MAP with no MAF or something like that. Any idea what I am talking about?

Its called Speed Density and we dont yet have the ECU logic to run it.

Tappin

Speed Density is a little advanced :) Factory speed density vs factory mass air....speed desnsity makes more power generally....start modding and the car goes to shit without a custom tune.....I converted cars from speed density to mass air simply for the ease of tuning and forgiveness of the mass air system. Speed density + mods is a game for the big power guys!!!

That's what it was! Now what vehicles were those? Subies?

Speed density from what I have seen here in Alaska is difficult when the weather changes and it goes from 80* outside to 0* lol.

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Topic for another thread but yes as VE changes so to must the tune if it expands beyond the table limits.

MAF is much easier and more forgiving to hardware changes.

SD is Robbing Peter to pay Paul IMO.

Tappin

Old fox body mustangs....87 and 88 had speed density from the factory...except the California models...they got mass air in 88 I believe. Anyway, back on topic :)

Actually MAF is newer and more advanced than speed density.

But in recent turbocharged cars such as the Ecoboost they went back to speed density with some very advanced modelling techniques.

Why? Speed density response is faster than MAF especially if the MAF sensor is so far upstream from the throttle plate.

All the speed density does is it translates pressure into airflow for the engine. You can run a simple table translator such as this:

MAP-ECU3 - Performance Motor Research : Performance Motor Research

Plug it into your MAF harness instead of the MAF and make sure you map the VE table correctly.

By Advanced, I meant to tune...not the technology. The typical armchair tuner would have quite a bit to learn tuning a modified speed denisity setup.

Don't you have to retune for changes in altitude on SD?

You have to retune for everything with SD. Stock for stock a speed density car tends to make more power than a Maf Car. This is seen by numerous dynos with the 88 Mustang GT...this is my reference and experience with speed density. Anyway, as soon as you started modding the speed density system, car would react negatively. In order to reel it back in you had to piggyback the ECU and custom tune it. On the other end, the mustang with a MAF was much more forgiving. Heads/cams/intakes/headers/exhaust/superchargers...and the only thing that was needed to change were fuel pumps, fuel injectors, and maf housing...the maf housing was needed to be changed not for size but to complement the injectors.....these kinds of mods were not possible without extensive piggyback ecu tuning on a speed density setup.

Are there any dyno proven values for in tank methanol? I'm running 1 gallon and was able to get away with 16* at 6k rpm holding 18.5 psi on k04. I tuned for what was in the tank and used WMI for more safety and consistency. Weird thing though, I recently turned off the WMI to verify my tune doesn't knock and I started seeing knock values at 5K. Idk why it would suddenly start doing that when it didn't when I was tuning for it. Also I've always been putting a full gallon in every fill up at empty, so there would always be residual meth in tank so I was usually just slightly over 1 gallon.

Not really, but I suspect that once you have sufficient octane with any fuel type, that MBT values on a given engine will be within a degree or two. The big takeaway from this thread, to me, is that there is HUGE variance in MBT curves between engines. I would take the lowest values and use them as a guideline until you are able to tune on a dyno and sufficiently quantify what a degree or two of timing does for power. Street tuning is not accurate enough for that fine of tuning.

I would go back and have a look at those data logs for comparison, specifically temperatures. Agreed with Enki, this part of your post is best found in a new thread.



Thanks @SofaKingAwesome!