E85 fuel pump

[SarcasticOne]

Hi MSF

just wanted your collective advice on something...

hpfp upgrade/ptp has announced on ozmps that they're selling a E85 specific fuel pump...

After months of testing and verifying proper clearance and pump longevity we now have a solution for those that want to run E85 with direct injection. If you have read one of the many fuel pump threads that talk about E85 and fuel pump failures you will know that E85 is very hard on DI fuel pumps. The reasons, less lubricity, fuel molecule size is different, heat production due to friction, flow requirements, and particulate build up under the fuel pump internals. Our fuel pumps address all these concerns allowing you to run E85 blends or straight E85. Our E85 HPFP with a 50/50 mix with 94 octane allowed us to achieve 398 WHP and 420 WTQ no WI or methanol. IDC became a concern at 6800 RPM and fuel pressure held a constant 1950 psi (2150 psi rail valve) through the whole tune. The pump has been tested to 2070 psi from 2800 RPM all the way to 7000 RPM on lower HP vehicles. The process's and final product is different from our standard HPFP's but you can still run regular fuel through our E85 specific fuel pump. We don't recommend that you run a high fuel pressure or high HP tune on the E85 fuel pump when running pump gas. The pistons have been treated, the tolerance's have been increased to address the problems related to running E85. We have also incorporated a "cross hatch" into the sleeve of the high pressure pump internals to help with cooling and lubrication. We will be adding this new pump to our product line up before the end of the month. Pricing will be: $845.00 + $350 core and shipping. We are excited to be the first company to release an "E85" specific fuel pump for those wanting to run corn fuel.

haven't answered me as to what turbo it is, but it's clearly not a k04

thoughts/comments?
know Haltech wasnt very happy about it on shout

[MSFer87]

That's great news, but I wish I also knew what turbo that was on. Knowing John is behind it wouldn't doubt it is a 400whp K04, but I obviously could be way wrong. It just sucks that the pricing is that high WTF is it gold plated or what? I will eventually want to run this, but only after the price becomes more understandable great to know we have made another breakthrough though.

[charlesfist]

Originally Posted by SarcasticOne Hi MSF just wanted your collective advice on something... hpfp upgrade/ptp has announced on ozmps that they're selling a E85 specific fuel pump... haven't answered me as to what turbo it is, but it's clearly not a k04 thoughts/comments? know Haltech wasnt very happy about it on shout

Thats the first problem. Unfortunately he's not a favorite around circles he has dealings with.

Secondly if its a corn specific pump why only been run with 50 50.
Where's the data that shows consistent running with full e85 for extended periods of time, without any problems to the pump/ fuel pressure etc.

any of the other pumps on the market now can run blends rather well till a 50 50 mix.

[ms3rick]

... Waits for cpe


Sent from my dizzLe using RaWr powers!

[SarcasticOne]

Originally Posted by charlesfist Thats the first problem. Unfortunately he's not a favorite around circles he has dealings with. Secondly if its a corn specific pump why only been run with 50 50. Where's the data that shows consistent running with full e85 for extended periods of time, without any problems to the pump/ fuel pressure etc. any of the other pumps on the market now can run blends rather well till a 50 50 mix.

no idea, just copy/pasting what has been posted...
and fully aware that ptp doesnt have the best rep on here, but at same time, wondering if they've done enough to justify the insane price tag on this...
ie sorting out the concerns in phate & Enki's threads...

[Raider]

Fail part is fail.

[phate]

He's fooling himself if he thinks he's come up with a "solution" to run 5050. Pumps don't have issues running up to that point, it is only higher than 50% E where we see black death accumulation.

I talked to John about this many months ago, and that conversation may have spurred the development of this product. We talked about increasing the piston-barrel clearance by a couple hundred thousandths, which he thought would give the internals a longer life. I argued the point that the clearance wasn't the issue, since we don't see any wear on pump internals with even full E85. As many know, the black death is the issue.

We spoke about the black death, and he couldn't believe oil was seeping past the O-Ring on the main piston. I cited MY mass spec reading which almost positively points to oil seepage, so it seems he was somehow convinced this was an issue...hmmm...

IF he actually implemented something, it would be a better or additional seal or O-Ring around the piston. IF this pump can keep oil from seeping past, then it is something worth looking into.

For the price, absolutely not worth it. I ran straight E85 for a very long time in my 3, and will likely run straight E85 in my 6 when it gets the new engine. I have a few things from Enki to test, which may be only a fraction of the cost of what John is trying to market.

[TiGraySpeed6]

I've got some awesome oceanfront property for sale just east of florida, $1200 an acre, with stunning water views and no pesky neighbors to deal with....

[silvapain]

LOL. Not much else I can say.


Tapadatass

[Haltech]

I said the same thing in shout last night.. Try it 100% E85 then tell me how well it works. That price is fuckin insane.

I heard the inside of the pump where the internals go was coated. That isnt going to do a damn thing if you can't stop the oil past the seal.

[LittleredMPS]

Interesting.

I suppose the next question is, if the hpfp black death issue gets sorted, and we can run straight E85, would it have any detrimental effects if you were using 5th port?

[ASHMS3]

LOL @ 900 dollar fuel pump that does the same thing as autotechs, KMD's, and the CP-e pump, and that is run 50/50. Hell, silvapain what mix were you running on stock internals before they shit the bed?

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by ASHMS3 LOL @ 900 dollar fuel pump that does the same thing as autotechs, KMD's, and the CP-e pump, and that is run 50/50. Hell, silvapain what mix were you running on stock internals before they shit the bed?

I ran 18 psi on 93 with stock internals (and a catless DP). They couldn't provide enough flow for straight E85 even at stock boost levels though.


Tapadatass

[Haltech]

Sprinkling Fairy dust on Aussies since they don't call people out.

[MSFer87]

Kind of wish he was still on here to give an explanation, but that's what got him banned in the first place.

[cld12pk2go]

I am sure this is going to end well...

[triplejumper18]

In before another "bad batch" or "user error" excuse.

[SarcasticOne]

Originally Posted by Haltech Sprinkling Fairy dust on Aussies since they don't call people out.

I'm working on it :p
Sadly, don't quite have the know how MSF does, hence coming here for answers/information...

There is a small group of us who spend a heap of time on MSF that are slowly calling out the bullshitting

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[forcedinduktion]

unicorn jizz coated pump for running straight e85 has proven to work best

[Travis]

Ive run a 50/50 mix on my autotechs for atleast a year now. No problems what so ever. Last time I touched my fuel pump internals was when I installed them.


Ghey.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Travis Ive run a 50/50 mix on my autotechs for atleast a year now. No problems what so ever. Last time I touched my fuel pump internals was when I installed them. Ghey. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

Oil seems to be the key factor for success here and your piston seal on the pump.

[Enki]

The internals "float" on the stock scraper/ring combo + the x ring at the back end (next to the spring). If they touch the retaining nut *at all* then you probably crossthreaded the retaining nut or didn't torque the three e8 torx bolts evenly.

That said, a simple coating ain't going to do it. Nothing you put in the tank will do it. A specific (as of yet undiscovered) oil *may* do it. There's a good chance if Phate can get the shit I sent him (thanks JBR for making them!), we will actually have a fairly inexpensive solution.


TLDR:
IF YOU BUY IT, IT WILL FAIL.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Enki The internals "float" on the stock scraper/ring combo + the x ring at the back end (next to the spring). If they touch the retaining nut *at all* then you probably crossthreaded the retaining nut or didn't torque the three e8 torx bolts evenly. That said, a simple coating ain't going to do it. Nothing you put in the tank will do it. A specific (as of yet undiscovered) oil *may* do it. There's a good chance if Phate can get the shit I sent him (thanks JBR for making them!), we will actually have a fairly inexpensive solution. TLDR: IF YOU BUY IT, IT WILL FAIL.

And be copied... Sold and price gouged as usual.

[Lex]

Hmm no wonder the Aussies I am tuning are scared of e85. johns tactics at play.

It is really hard to justify running above 30-40 percent e85 given the injector headroom and those mixes are generally trouble free. Most people there are just starting to experiment with bts and alternative fuel so it's ripe for marketing stuff like this unfortunately.

[SarcasticOne]

Originally Posted by Lex Hmm no wonder the Aussies I am tuning are scared of e85. johns tactics at play. It is really hard to justify running above 30-40 percent e85 given the injector headroom and those mixes are generally trouble free. Most people there are just starting to experiment with bts and alternative fuel so it's ripe for marketing stuff like this unfortunately.

im seriously hoping that my build will help change the minds of many (3071 + 30% E85) know there is quite a lot interested in seeing how the E85 mix goes, get asked about it daily

currently they're coming around to the idea of e-tuning, hopefully once they see the gains from 25-30% E85, they'll be less inclined to be scared of it...
i dont so much want to say it's john, as, we've never seen anyone do it locally before, so they're all a bit hesitant to try it
but from what ive read here, it sounds like john's "e85 pump" is just a way to get extra money off people who dont know any better...

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Pretty sure there is going to be a higher then stock compression ratio Aussie here soon also.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by LittleredMPS Interesting. I suppose the next question is, if the hpfp black death issue gets sorted, and we can run straight E85, would it have any detrimental effects if you were using 5th port?

None that I know of . I'm running e50 (8 gal e70 to 4 gal pump) at a significant airflow with no issues yet. I'm also using a Cpe fuel pump (have had it for years).

Johns tactics are always so damn shady.


Sent from my penis using magic

[LittleredMPS]

Originally Posted by Lex Hmm no wonder the Aussies I am tuning are scared of e85. johns tactics at play. It is really hard to justify running above 30-40 percent e85 given the injector headroom and those mixes are generally trouble free. Most people there are just starting to experiment with bts and alternative fuel so it's ripe for marketing stuff like this unfortunately.

I would have an E85 tune off you in a heartbeat mate. The only reason I am getting the tune I am is because it is a two hour round trip to get any.
Hate living in the country sometimes

Originally Posted by GLORIFIEDBOZO Pretty sure there is going to be a higher then stock compression ratio Aussie here soon also.

Yeah that is me, though it will be a bit of a wait, unless the EFR7163 magically appears in the next 4 months.

[Haltech]

Well his bullshit gets called out all the time in the US. Now he has to resort to another country.

My thing with John is... as soon as you think he is turning the corner and making good strides, he pulls a "john" and completely kills it for himself. I mean, he has good intentions, but his execution is so poor.

Perhaps i'm being super critical... But, to test an E85 specific pump that costs $900 and only can claim no abnormalities with a 50/50 mix is complete bullshit. Stock pump can do that.

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

The info Mchart posted about Viton seals in conjunction with oil choice, and Enki's scraper, should probably be enough to make the difference IMHO. A coating to help ease wear due to less lubrication is worthless if you can't use it with 93oct. IMHO.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn None that I know of .

Only thing I can think of would be poor atomization in the winter, easily fixed by masking off part of the intercooler to reduce efficiency.

[ms3blackmica]

I'll keep my fp internals that have been working fine for me and the entire world...

Originally Posted by Lex Hmm no wonder the Aussies I am tuning are scared of e85. johns tactics at play.

That really bothers me....at least for the sake of you tuners. Tuning is still ripe for them over there with the release of the Aussie ATR and the last thing you guys need is someone making them scared to run e85

[Erich]

I really haven't been following his development of the E85 pump as I have no intention of running E85 (no E85 stations anywhere near where I live or work and I'll just keep injecting my alcohol from a secondary source like god intended), but am pretty sure he has the pump tested on straight E85 as well as the blends (see the lower HP cars comment.) I think he listed that car in his description because it is the vehicle he had the highest numbers on HP wise.

[Enki]

Didn't you dyno the unicorn on pure e85?
Didn't John also say that all the vehicle needed to run it reliably was an ounce or two of MMO?

[Haltech]

Back in my early years of drag racing, i would seek ways to improving on ET's by experimenting with race fuel mixtures.

I would take 100 octane and add to it, additional toluene, xylene, nitromethanol and MMO to add lubrication back into the fuel. 2.5 ounces for each 5 gallons. This fuel would easily clip 5/10s off your ET.

MMO is a great product and was widely used in alky mixtures to help pro long fuel injector seals. The common theory is, alky strips anything in its path, so the general use of MM0 added to it, bring lubrication back.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Haltech Back in my early years of drag racing, i would seek ways to improving on ET's by experimenting with race fuel mixtures. I would take 100 octane and add to it, additional toluene, xylene, nitromethanol and MMO to add lubrication back into the fuel. 2.5 ounces for each 5 gallons. This fuel would easily clip 5/10s off your ET. MMO is a great product and was widely used in alky mixtures to help pro long fuel injector seals. The common theory is, alky strips anything in its path, so the general use of MM0 added to it, bring lubrication back.

Except for the simple fact that it was "used to prevent CDFP issues when using pure e85."
Having put a whole fucking bottle in 1/4 of a tank after cleaning the pump, I can attest to it not doing a fucking thing on our platform.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Enki Except for the simple fact that it was "used to prevent CDFP issues when using pure e85." Having put a whole fucking bottle in 1/4 of a tank after cleaning the pump, I can attest to it not doing a fucking thing on our platform.

Not arguing it doesn't work for us, but just trying to show you where this theory came about and why people tend to use it.

[Enki]

Oh I have no doubt it works for some platform; but I do have a problem with someone saying an ounce of the shit per tank is all you need to keep the deaths at bay.

[Erich]

Originally Posted by Enki Didn't you dyno the unicorn on pure e85? Didn't John also say that all the vehicle needed to run it reliably was an ounce or two of MMO?

Nope, pump gas and race fuel (Trick 119.) Not sure what the alcohol usage is in Trick 119.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Erich Nope, pump gas and race fuel (Trick 119.) Not sure what the alcohol usage is in Trick 119.

You're right; mah bad.

Not your car and 8 OZ MMO:
100% E85

For amusement, some good ole polite smackdown:
100% E85