You may have been kidding, but a return style system with a cold can might actually help with issues.

Every night when I get home I have been putting a fan on my pump. Along with my secret fuel additive (I will share my findings after my tank is empty or when my car blows up) with 50 miles my spill valve looks cleaner then when I started.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/27/egaha5et.jpg
The additive has started to eat at the goo that i left on the bottom next to the button valve.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/27/yhapume9.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/27/ypysage3.jpg

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

In before hobo semen.

Also if the new additive works, it should get its own thread and a sticky in the section.

I agree that Semen is sticky. For all I know it could be the silly fan on my pump. Tonight I will ditch the fan. Besides, I don't want my electricity bill to get too high.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

subbed, this is amazing research and i don't want to miss anything.

We've got E85 somewhere near Guelph apparently if you were ever really looking for it.

I'm for PayPal donation account for this cause. Really, you and @Enki; should bare all the cost...

While I can't speak for @littleloogy;, I don't need the cash but thanks for the offer.

I'm rich. I wipe with C-notes... I was being sarcastic about the 22watt fan consuming energy. I really appreciate you offering to fund the project though. :-)

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

Can you wipe my ass with c-notes?

Just tapa it in.

I know :) My point was, since you are doing in for the benefit off all of us, there could be something that everybody can do to help and feel involved.

Anyhow, case closed, let's not derail the tread.

The *best* thing anyone can do is to test his findings and confirm/deny them. The more data sets we get piled into this thread, the closer we get to finding our final resolution.

Science, bitch.

Nope. Don't carry it anymore.
Wouldn't let me pump it if they did, and didn't pump it into cars without flexfuel stickers.
That was two years ago.

That's just communist...er I guess socialist. not letting you pump it into non flex cars :)

Its racist!

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

very expensive, complicated test though...if only one of the 5th port guys with a return style setup would try this....

I am hoping for a mechanical mod to the pump as a solution. keep up the good work littleloogy

I didn't mean for that to be a permanent fix; a cold can setup would really only be viable for drag racing or autocross, not for daily driving.

Work has been delayed this passed week, I apologize. My better half believes that I love my car more then I do her. Though that might be true, I could not let her think that. Worry not, I will be back at it shortly.

Oh and I got a new toy over the weekend it tells me:
1.) Dissolved oxygen
2.) Conductivity
3.)PH
4.)relative humidity
5.) Tempature
6.) Turbidity

I don't know what I will use it for... But thought it was cool.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/10/y7y7ezet.jpg

In regards to the ethanol dissolving in gasoline, just some fyi, ford vehicles sold that are E85 compatible have a note in the owners manual that if you opt to run e85 you must run one tank of gasoline at the recommended oil change intervals.

Interesting, I've been doing something similar but doing it every third oil change roughly. I need to take my pump apart and see how it looks and compare it to one of the other locals who hasn't been doing that.

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Like mine. Let's do it.

Exactly who I was thinking, are speeds are very similar: only a month apart both in build date and when we bought them, similar mods, went on E about the same time, did EGR delete about the same time, catch cans went on about the same time, the only difference is I'm running a little more E and put on a little more mileage and I alternate a tank of 93 second or third oil change. If for nothing else it would be good for us just to check.

I saw someone post a picture of a gas pump that had all the normal flavors of gas plus several straight gasoline options as well as a 100% E option. Would love to have one of those gas stations near me and the ability to run 100% E!

@littleloogy; Hope we aren't derailing your thread, just thought any info we could help gather would be good info.

Yeah, you pretty much train wreaked my whole project... You bastards!

After I prove or disprove additives in my other thread I will be starting this up again. At times like this I wish I had two speeds... I guess I'll just have to continue playing leapfrog.

Sent from a Galaxy far far away...

Up until about a month ago there was a station here in town that had E30 on tap. That was sweet. I'd guess I was the only one who ever bought any though.

The purpose of the cap is actually for low pressure fuel inlet and what appears to be an access port for fuel pressure testing on the low pressure side (ITFP line pressure). The pump does not have fuel inlet connectors like we have on the MZR. There is no way to connect our lines to the Audi/VW hpfp.

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Lets say the MZR baffle cover (left) is replaced with the VW baffle/inlet cap (right) with the two ports blocked.
The pump then has more metal & fuel to heat up after shut down, plus a better fuel : oil ratio as it has a larger capacity of fuel as it cools down.

It might not stop the boiling, but perhaps it will have less impact of forming sticky.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1399152205


The next option is phenolic spacer between the matching surfaces of the head & fuel pump;
The spacer can be very thin as it only has a small surface area to transfer heat through.

You can see they made the surface area as small as possible already -

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1399153065

Lol fix that embedded image with a save and direct upload.

Way ahead of you... Got my template made. I just have to cut my blanket and install it on my pump.

This is a flexible Aerogel blanket. A very high resistance to heat transfer. http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/04/u3enataz.jpg

I just worry about the gasket causing my clearance tolerance in my pump to be way out of spec causing fueling problems.

Also have to take into consideration that hot as fuck oil splashes all over the spring area, and the internals directly conduct heat through the cam follower, not to mention the side contact that happens on the part that installs into the head (the part with the o-ring).

As for the TIG causing fueling issues, best bet would be to measure the distance between follower all the way down and all the way up, as well as the distance of insertion and stroke capability of the internals (probably spring limited).

What size material is the gasket @littleloogy;?

0.075" when I use the same "feel" on my micrometer. If I torque the pad down It looks like it will shrink somewhere between to 0.0560”-0.060"

General pump analysis going on here:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1/#post2574634

@Enki; I am going to find and install a stronger spring. At 3 lobes and at 4000 RPMs that equals 12,000 pumps per minute. There is no way that a stock return spring can return even half way let alone the full throw.

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be very careful HPFP have seized intake cams and busted VVT before leading to bent valves and shit. upgrading any springs in the pump will put more stress on VVT so I only recommend these mods to people with DCR or PTP vvts

EDIT; on a side note .... where did anyone determine that our fuel boils ..... that just dont make sense. Maybe Im dumb. But i was under the impression fuel has a higher boiling point than coolant and has anyone actually attached a temperature probe between HPFP and the housing to measure the temps there ? I just really want to know where all this its boiling shit came from ...

is your pumps per a minute accounting for the fact that the cams spin i believe at least 2x the times per 1 crank revolution so cams are at 8k rpm when crank is 4k ?

No, let me redo my math... 4000 RPMs X2 = 8,000 X 3 lobes.
24,000 pumps per minute? I don't know about all that. Sounds more like a humming bird.



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Question, If the E is boiling due to heat from the internals? Pure ethanol boils at 173 degrees at one atmosphere. but at 2000 psi it will boil at >173F (unknown how high but probably closer to 200+) if you use the cap from the vw or something like that and have a relief valve going back to a t off the fuel line from the ITFP and wire it up to the Ignition. so when you turn your car on it shuts and when you turn your car off it opens and releases pressure to around 60-100psi, which is enough to start the car next time. Thus mixing with air temp fuel and causing it to lower its temp to <150f id assume. thus cooling and stopping the boiling of the fuel. as your car runs its not heating up significantly till its closer to the injectors at that point. i think trying this first before modding the pump would be a better start? ya or na? im currently looking for a valve and @littleloogy do you know the thread pitch on the vw cap? i want to try this in hopes De-looting the fuel with cooler fuel will help.

You said it backwards. Cams spin at half the rate of the crank (4 stroke)

Cams make one revolution per engine cycle; a 4 stroke engine has a 2 revolution cycle, so our cams spin at exactly half the rate of the crank.

This gives us 1.5 cycles per revolution of the crank, or 5250 cycles per minute at 7000 revolutions per minute; this is 87.5 cycles per second at 7k RPM.

Per http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fu...nt-d_936.html:

Boiling points:
Ethanol: 172 degrees F.
Gasoline: 100-400 degrees F.

Looks to me like higher E-content has the potential to REDUCE boiling point of the fuel. Letting the car get nice and hot before shutdown, you can sometimes HEAR shit boiling in the pump, raising pressure until the ITFP regulator gives way and backflows, allowing for even more boiling.

And thus, the spill valve is left with nothing more than ethanol/gas vapors and a thin coat of oil in an extremely hot, pressurized environment. Sounds like a recipe for sticky to me.

The sad fact is that the HPFP is bolted directly to the head, and the internals are almost directly splashed with scalding hot engine oil. Removing pressure from the pump is probably just going to make the deaths develop faster, as the gradual release of pressure is going to remove some heat.

Ideally, we need some kind of return style system or better yet, a modified retaining nut that keeps near 100% of the oil out of the pump.

@littleloogy; do you have a set of pictures of a full breakdown of the 2.0t's retaining nut for the internals? It didn't look like theirs is the same as ours, and if their sealing system is better, and it can be retrofit to our pumps, that might be a good answer to our issues.

ok yeah i was not 100% sure i just know the cams dont spin the same times as the crank does so if this is the case then its not 12k times a minute or whatever loogy said its 6k.

I agree with you 100%. There are just way to many sources for heat transfer. If it is not the block it is the oil, its its not the oil its the High pressure line, and if its not the high pressure line its heat radiating off the engine/turbo. Isolation of the pump from heat is impossible. We have to get it out of everyone's head and to accept the fact that the pump housing will see +200 degree temps at shutdown.

There was only a glob of goo in there. The o-rings and springs were all melted together. The seals were spring loaded similar to this.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/09/e2u4uru3.jpg
I found a wreaked GTI I need to go visit it and see if I can get the pump for a good price. If so, I can post up some pics.




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Tried calling APR get get a seal kit... They pretty much told me to fuck off. Even after I tried to explain how there could be a market to just sell their fastener. "Sorry our information in confidential."

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Here is the stock piston off the 2.0t. Notice the shiny part of the piston? I wonder if that was polished from the tight seal, or if it was polished from the factory to help aid the wiping possess.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/09/nu3avupe.jpg

That's undoubtedly the stroke length IMO. My stock internals look the same, wherever they are.

There is a measurable difference.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/09/jydu5u4a.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/09/y9aqy7ap.jpg

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That's a really good fucking seal then.

...

Or that rod is made from recycled Hondas.

Because Hondas don't hold up worth a shit? I can't believe you went there...

It was a joke at any rate. The difference is what, a thousandth, maybe?

I guess I could measure it for you... Let's see 23-55°×(-1.54+34%)times 6 XX beers {©®™∆}= +/- .5000 inches of travel. Well it was actually .5010, let's keep the numbers simple.

Fixed that for you.

Here are pics of the 2.0t retaining nut with the seal. Notice the seal is spring loaded? This will defiantly help keep the oil and fuel separated compared to our retaining nut.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/31/qe7u7yqy.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/31/uravy3eq.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/31/qedasy7e.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/31/8ezyge8e.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/31/7a3ahyze.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/31/asa6avan.jpg

Thinking about installing this fastener tomorrow in my pump.


Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Here is the mock up of the hpfp cover. I need to get some fittings to route the lines correctly. The LP fuel inlet is in the way like this.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/01/udu2uvu9.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/01/5yzaseha.jpg
But with 180° of rotation, we are in business.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/01/ejysu8e9.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/01/e8yhady4.jpg

I am excited to watch how the ITFP pressure fluctuations as I go WOT. One thing at a time. Unfortunately Time is something I do not have a lot of.


Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Watch out for that bottom mounting bolt being covered up by the new plate ports.

Yeah, it is a pain in the ass. I'll get it mounted one way or another. In case anyone cares. Here is my injection pump.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/01/aqupehaq.jpg

I don't think I'll need more then 100psi for injecting small amounts of cleaner.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Anything more than 60 PSI will push fuel past the regulator and back into the tank.

Ohh wow.....Hook me up!


Im so happy you have a ms3 to help test this shit out...My car is almost done. Was gonna run the additivie for time being tho.

A thought occurs... isn't a large part of the problem the fact that fuel is left to vaporize in the hot pump after shutdown and leave behind residue? I saw a stipulation earlier that a return circulation system may solve all woes. What if you fed this or similar pump off of the fuel line and reverse flush for 60s with cool fuel after engine shutdown? Or delay 5min after shutdown and run 60s?

Go easy on me, thinking in brainstorm fashion.

It's all about thermal mass; the fuel in the tank vs the entire engine, coolant and oil.

Thinking about it more, TIGs *AND* a couple minutes return based system could potentially work miracles, if used in tandem....only way to know for sure is to do before/after comparisons using a thermal probe+logger (which would be handy info anyways).

When ever I get a chance to finish my return system with additive injection I will post up. I wish it was not so damn hot in my shop this time of year. It is like 120 degrees in there by the time I get home from work...

The return line is hooked on a solenoid (no power closed). After I finish my run, I will turn off ignition, flip my solenoid on, and turn ignition back on. Fuel will dump back into my tank as I let the pump, pump.

Any cons to this setup?

Edit: Along the lines of the solenoid being a fire hazard? Or how hot the coil can get when energized for an extended period of time?

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

One way to find out....

may give new meaning to zoom zoom boom...

In for updates, thanks for the hard work on this!

Well I started a new project. We are starting to test it. http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...d.php?t=166953

Thanks! I have been following that. I was surprised that applying the additive that way lasts so long, that's great! I would have thought it would quickly dissipate.

I was surprised as well. There also could be other reasoning as to why I am able to go so long.

Either the fuel has changed at my local station and is not reacting to my fuel as it used to.

Or the back death crap is in our tanks, and after over a gallon of Si-1 it has been all cleaned out. Resulting in no death in pump

Time will tell. I know enki is having some of his local guys test this. We will have a better understanding after a while.

So i ran SI-1 through the tank for a while when we first started testing this additive. probably 5-6 full fill ups.
went back on 91 for a few months
Now im back on full E - no additive for about 4.5 full fillups thus far.
I drive 60 mi a day = 300 miles a week and for the past month i have yet to see issues in logs or daily driving.

i wanted to see the effects of running without any additive and when or how long till failure, then use the additive to clean and lubricate the pump

my question is, Is the theory of black death coming from the tank still a vaild theory?

I do know Enkei says its only a matter of time but i guess the aforementioned theory kind of makes sense in my case. fluke? luck? maybe i just jinxed myself lol

I believe it was concluded to be due to the heating/boiling of the fuel from shutdown and it mixing with the oil. -sourced from enki's thread on e-85 testing.

It's not just me that says that. Everyone who's been on full E before has a clock between pump cleanings which gets shorter after each. It's possible that the only whole pumps that DON'T have issues are CPE pumps, but there's no real hard data to validate that.

Enkei = wheel mfg
Enki = me

Confirmed. I boiled E in a pan (yes there was an eventual fire) and had no issues whatsoever. Add a little oil, heat it a bit more and sticky over everything.

@mazdafreak; can confirm that cpe pumps have the same issues with full E85.

This is true..... But I do believe I was able to last a lil longer on full E on Cpe pump compared to ppl running just the autotech (internal upgrade)



Been running kendell racing oil with great results (only on a 70/30 mix tho)

This will be going into the pump tomorrow evening after I change my oil. I'm sure the spring loaded seal will help keeps the oil and E separated.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/19/ada2y7up.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/19/yrevupyj.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/19/3y7y8yqu.jpg

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

If this works to keep the pump cleaner than with the chemical method, then we need to find a supplier for the retaining nuts.

APR replaces these with their own retaining nut. I need to call them and see if they are willing to sell them to us.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Welcome back from vacation!

If they say no, we can probably arrange to have people randomly call throughout the day, every day, for a month or so asking for them.

That might change their mind.

Holy shit... Fun times
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/22/y5apydug.jpg
This looks similar as to the last time I took the pump apart. Again, very soft death. Feels like fresh boogers.

Here is the assembly of the audi/vw fastener. It seemed to install the same as our fasteners (retaining nut) http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/22/qaga3aja.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/22/7upy3e8u.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/22/puseduja.jpg

I did not use Si-1 in the installation. This will test this fasteners ability to keep the oil and E85 separate.

Spill valve and button valve were spotless in this run.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/22/ypuquvyn.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/22/ege5unav.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/22/9y8e9avy.jpg



Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

I'm totally in for this if we can get something that works. Full e fill ups without any further thought would be a dream come true.

Here is a fuel pressure log with the new Retaining nut. Pressure seems the same, just like my stock fastener with AT's Attachment 175186
Nothing special, Just Fuel Pressure. I have been driving around a lot Today. Nothing to complain about.... Pure E85 BLISS

let the MSF spam team go to work for modification sake for a change instead of the extremely successful trolling.

Heck, I'd join in from Australia :p

I would prefer to buy them new if I can. I have seen a lot of these o-rings, in different stages of breaking down. The first one I received had a rock hard O-Ring. I am searching for the fasteners (retaining nut) now. It would be nice if we can buy them in bulk and sell them in the MSF store as a key to E85.

Edit: If it works..


Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Im down for having a reason to be a dick.

Fuck it. They were discourteous they first time I called them, They deserve it. Telling me no... Who are they? Pieces of shit only dealing with v/w's and Audi's. They are racist is what they are.

Phone:—(800) 680-7921—Local Phone:—+1 (334) 502-5181—Fax:—(334) 502-5180—Address:—APR LLC, 4800 US HWY 280 West, Opelika, AL 36801

I'll give it a shot about fasteners in the morning. When they say no... Fuck em

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

So, what exactly do we have to do? Make them sell us the retaining nut?

Seeing as it's MSF... possibly pics/nudes/phone numbers of any hot family members...

But seeing as they haven't been given troll status yet... Probably settle for them selling us the parts (assuming it works...)

Alright, what exactly am I asking for?

That's the goal. If they receive enough demand for the fasteners, maybe they might think about selling them to us, or at least list them on eBay, instead of throwing them away.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

I called. Talked to a guy named Richard in sales. Asked about what they do with their fasteners. They said "we throw them away."
I then asked if they would be interested in selling the fasteners that they throw away. "We would, but there is too much of a liability, we cant sell a used part"
I asked if someone would sell them on eBay to be rid of the liability "no, we don't do that.
I suggested that he do it personally he said "sorry, I can't, I would loose my job."

What a bunch of pussies...

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

They don't sell new fasteners?

Their fasteners are designed to work with their internals. The diameter is thicker then ours.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/23/a7aryvu2.jpg
Notice the thickness is the same for the entire length of the piston shaft.

I am curious if we send in a MZR HPFP fuel pump that they can install their internals and fastener. Giving us another option for upgrading our fuel pump.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Maybe we need Nator AL to go on a mission and do some dumpster diving.

Nope. Exclusivity deal with CPE.

Edit:
At any rate, I'd rather have lower inertia on the internals and a smaller surface area for friction.

CPE/ APR pumps have been claimed as a 40% volume improvement over stock, At's are claimed to be 50%. In either case getting apr internals would be a step backward. Besides, they fail with E as well.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Did you tell them why you were asking about the part?

Bunch of faggots

Yes. I explained the situation before asking. He claimed nothing can be done to help us.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

Well this didn't work...
Startup This morning was normal, got one block away from my dwelling and I lost pressure. I pulled over and replaced the spill valve and button valve, but it still would not build pressure. I then dumped some Si-1 in the spill valve and was finally able to build pressure. Got home and found this very familiar black sticky death shit.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/10/17/yheqa8a3.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/10/17/u8ezubu9.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/10/17/yhe4yme9.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/10/17/yqegy7ab.jpg
This method for controlling back and sticky death is not recommended.

What's next on the drawing board???


Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

This was the Audi retaining nut right? Also, putting SI1 in the spill valve area returned normal function?

Yes, this was the 2.0t's retaining nut. I was not running any additive in the pump, this was a test of a direct swap of the retaining nut.

After I removed the solenoid I poured a couple of ML's of additive on top of the button valve. After securing the solenoid I restarted my car.

Fuel pressure did not come back right away, It would go from 70psi to 600 psi then watched pressure drop back to in tank pump pressure. It would then spike back up to 1000 psi then taper down to intake pump pressure. After a 1/4 mile of this pressure came back to normal operating pressures.

I also found sticky death in my check valve and on the mouth of my hard line. Wonder how much got in there.


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