The interplay between the spray pattern and the piston design is going to have a larger impact on fuel economy and part throttle operation than it will at wot.

Can I get some stir-fry up in here?

Tappin

E85 Remedy with HPFP Hardware modifications
 

So I will remain quiet while I work on a new thread since @Dano; likes to be all organized and shit. The injector that I have been working with is the FSI RS4 injector the 2.0t guys are reaching over 500hp with these. It is the cheapest option and what appears to be the correct spray pattern. You can get 4 new injectors for under 400 bucks.

I will also keep my eye open for a used 2.3 ecoboost injector for fitment, as they might offer more fuel, but are expensive as fuck.

Edit: Feel free to comment any ideas, problems, or concerns. I will reference these as I begin the journey.

Just wow. I came from the 2.0t platform a few years ago and their max was 350hp on a built block at that time. Good shit. There any many of us behind the scenes appreciating the hard work your putting in on this.

A quick Google search shows those at $350 shipped. Much more feasible than a 5th or 6th port for most people.

Had a hunch. Racked my brains for what DI engine puts out the most power.

Be very sure the spray angle is the same. 1800psi of fuel will wash oil off a cylinder wall very fast. If you want any help testing these let me know I have a trashed head I'm already doing some experimenting on.

E85 Remedy with HPFP Hardware modifications
 

If you want to start looking at the VW forums and find out how the injector controller differs from ours, we will also need a VW to MZR harness adapter. That will save me a shit ton of time.

Edit: I already have my hands full trying to get the injectors to mount to the head and matching them to the rail. Does anyone know the clearance between the IM and the Fuel Rail? Just in case I need to raise the rail.

Yea I'll start looking into it tonight. Another big factor we need to take into account is operating voltages. All (to my knowledge) PI injectors operate on 12V, DI injectors operate anywhere between 50-95V so they need to be in a close voltage range too. I think I can find that info pretty easily tho. I'll report back later.

The oil control ring gets most of it. There shouldn't be much left to spray off.

Got curious about the electrical specs and just looked it up right now.

Our injector resistance: 1.0-1.2ohms
RS4 injector resistance: 12-20ohms (they also operate on 12V, ours are around 100V)

Can't we just use their injector controller?


Great we can just throw in some resistors in your harness.

I'm not sure. I would imagine it's integral to the ECU like ours is. Edit: ours isn't

Haha yea. I wish our injector harness wasn't so much money.

I wish development was free.

Just found this for our injector system.

Attachment 215450


I will look for some description of their operation for their injectors.

I recently purchases a 2013 (30K miles) injector harness off e-bay for $125, not sure you'd consider that expensive in the grand scheme of things.

No that's not horrible. But comparing it to my buddies who have ecotecs and buy theirs for $30 and that's considered a normal price, it's kinda spendy.

Is this the "caution hot" box mounted to the frame rail in front of the trans mount on the ms3?

Yes^

So it might be possible to rig something up to run 12v and skip that box...? Probably throw a code or 10 though.

E85 Remedy with HPFP Hardware modifications
 

No; that's the in-tank fuel pump slow speed resistor. See page 01-14B-20 of the manual for details on it.

Edit: according to page 01-40B-16 of the manual, the injectors are run on ~70VDC?

If noone has a car apart, I'll be willing to document where everything goes in December when mine gets stripped down and re-loomed.

I think the big difference is that our injector system is a peak and hold, it uses 70 (or 100V) to open the injector and holds it open with 12V. Versus the RS4 system is a saturated system the uses a flat 12V on the injectors. The biggest telltale is that our injectors are low impedance.

Car Fuel Injector Basics History | Peak and Hold | Saturated How it works

Does it peak around 70 volts to open the valve and then a 12volt constant until the valve closes? Or does it simply operate as a 70v valve?

Yes. 70 to open. 12 to hold.

Edit Never mind,

And the RS4 valve operates with just 12volt?

That's what I'll be trying to find out later tonight when I'm done with class. My initial thought is yes because it has a much higher resistance spec meaning it's a high impedance injector, which is what is used in saturated systems.

Godspeed. Thanks for your help man.

I'm not seeing an opening voltage in the FSM. The only reference I can find to it is the image I posted earlier.

If that is true and it is only 12 volts then making a controller will not be difficult at all. It would be slick if we can just find a way to eliminate the 70volt jolt out of our stock controller. Rip off the fet controlling the high voltage on the board or something of that sort.

High voltage is probably coming from a cap/inductor boost converter type setup; considering the current requirements, probably something in the 15-20 rated range (not sure if x1000 or x100 microfarad) if they eat a full amp that is.

E85 Remedy with HPFP Hardware modifications
 

It looks like it (peaks at 70, then holds at 12).

The Mazda manual shows example oscilloscope plots for many PCM signals, including the injectors on page 01-40B-16.

If you guys are interested there's an injector harness on Facebook (I know, bad juju) for 50 + shipping. I asked the dude for pricing and figured I'd pass it onto you guys if you need it. Also has injectors for 150 + shipping IIRC.

Shipping shouldn't be that much. Maybe $10-15

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Okay well the first thing we need to address is the resistance in the injector.

Our ECU won't be able to open the injector unless we can decrease the resistance of them, or increase the amperage going to them, but the later might cause them to overheat.

If we can find a way to decrease their resistance we are golden (electrically) and just need to wire the connectors for them onto our harness.

Assuming, of course, that the injectors are driven by the ECU directly and not by a purpose built injector driver box thingie.

If there is a driver box, then a new one can be made and driven directly by the ECU in place of the old one. Timing might still be a factor, though, but that might still be tunable.

Is Dustin's scope data laying around anywhere still?

E85 Remedy with HPFP Hardware modifications
 

What about trying to integrate the 2.0t injector controller into ours?
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11...417884d926.jpg

There should be no need for that, I believe. All an injector is is just a solenoid. Our ECU and inj driver wouldn't change logic and should behave just fine so long as the resistances are the same.

Edit: The only thing I'm not taking into account is the pintle in the injector and the force required to open it since ours *should* be higher than theirs.

I might be looking at this too simply.

Has anyone thought about ecoboost 3.5 injectors? They displace a little bit more per cylinder and ive seen 500hp taurus sho's on stock injectors. Ive seen the injectors for $120 a pop. Just an idea

https://www.deatschwerks.com/news/pr...t-gdi-injector

Okay well I did some more researching. I think our best bet is to use an injector from a car that uses a peak and hold style system. From what I've found all VAG cars use a saturated style system. I've found that GM's LNF and Hyundai's Theta engines use peak and hold like us, their injectors are rated under 2ohms and GM actually states it uses 65V to open the injector and 12V to hold it open. I don't know much about Hyundai's injectors but there's plenty on the LNF. I can't find if Ecoboosts are saturated or peak and hold or any resistance values for the injectors but they would be a great option if they are peak and hold and we can get them to fit, especially since so many companies are making bigger injectors for them.

Some VW guys actually found that LNF injectors fit in their head. So if we can get a VW injector to fit ours I think we can get an LNF one to fit too. What's extra good is that ZZP sells Opel injectors that offer ~15% more fuel over the stock LNF injector. Cobalts already can make ~450ish on their stock injectors so there's a good chance we can make 450+ on the Opel injectors if we can get them to fit.

Also the connectors look pretty similar so we might not have to alter our injector harness to use them.

This really needs its own thread.

Nah that's crazy talk.

Tappin

New thread, old thread, all I know is my body is ready.


EDIT:
@Raider; please move the injector posts from the past few pages of this thread to the following:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1/#post2977171

kthx xoxoxoxo

Whatever. You guys go off and do your own thing, I'll stay here.

Technically, this thread IS for hardware fixes for running full corn. I'd be happy to give you OP in the other thread, or if you make your own mine can be merged into yours.

E85 Remedy with HPFP Hardware modifications
 

No worries. You're better at keeping track of everything anyway.

Seriously, I just want the fucking injectors. Lol

The real question I have is how are them IE internals holding up? Once I get a bigger turbo I def want to run full corn, plus all the kids on campus are doing it and I want to be cool just like them :bandwagon:

IE internals have not given me any problems. Running Stock fuel pressure with a CS turbo gives me a nice vdyno at 350/375.
Everyone loves corn, except for those who don't.

Still on the RP dexos oil? Have you tried any other dexos oils?

Do you think the deaths are related to ash content in the oil? One of the big trends I've seen is that dexos oils are mostly very low ash oils (plus low ash oils cause less build up on valves, which is always nice). I'm a big fan of Shell products so I'd love to keep running Pennzoil Ultra if I make the switch to IE.

How much boost can you get to on e85?

As much as your fuel system/Rods can handle. I ran 21 psi for many years with the K04 and stock MAP sensors. With my upgraded MAP sensor I now hit +\- 23psi peak tapering to 18 at redline. My advice... Do not hit anything over 400 ft/lbs of torque on a stock block.

Upgraded rods and Pistons with 6th port fueling... Sky is the limit.

No i mean you specifically on the cs turbo. I run out of fuel at 20psi on e30, i was curious how far you are getting running full e85.

Oh Full E I hit 23 psi, and taper down to about 18psi @redline with 125 IDC. Anytime I go over 125 IDC I start to run lean.
Oh, and I target 12.1 AFR. Sometimes because of my shitty self tune and some cold mornings I will lean out close to 13.0 AFR redline. [emoji57]

Ive been able to get away with 12 afr up til about 5k rpm then i have to taper it to 11.7ish but i havent pushed passed 107%. It gets cold as balls here. Ofcourse on e30.

Thanks for the info, wanted to make the switch but i guess oversized valves and some port work took me out on full e85.
I grow ethanol for a living and love that its so popular and you guys are working so hard to use more of it.

I don't know how much I can push these stock injectors, where is the limit?. Got up to 139 IDC this time. 17 hp gain from the last set of logs that i did.
Attachment 219219

Can u make ethanol urself? Is it an expensive and hard process? Jw for future endeavours.

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Personally I think it depends a lot on timing. I can get to 105 before it shits the bed. What timing you running? Any aux fuel?

Not expensive or hard once you get past the setup, but here in the states you need a special permit for it.

Hmmm now u have me thinkin.. Fuck permits lol

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There's more to it than that as well. You need an ATF permit to brew your own fuel, of which you are limited in quantity, and it has to be denatured, and the ATF has to have access to your brewery at all times. There's plans and fees and all kinds of bullshit you have to do to get it done, which takes forever and has some fees associated with it.

I'll post up the log when I get home @Enki;
I tried posting earlier but I screwed something up. Made 367whp though.


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Full corn?
Edit: Any mods to injector phasing?

U don't think u could get away with a personal brew? I mean I will be living in the cuts as well.. Just a thought I had since I do have land and the space

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E85 Remedy with HPFP Hardware modifications
 

No, phasing went back to 1.00. I am still on full Corn, yes.

Edit: I am only running 18 degrees of timing up top


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Trust me when I say you want no part of the ATF kicking in your door and finding a high capacity still setup.

I was running only 18 as well but couldn't get over 105. Weird.

I'm sure ur right. I just looked up the process and it seems pretty easy but would take prob a few $$$ investment to have a legit setup. I wonder wat those permits cost. I don't like atf already cuz I load ammo and I don't want them coming check in all my shit. I wonder if this is even cost effective way of saving money if u made all ur vehicles run on e85.

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It can be, but your car needs to be set up to make it efficient. It is possible to get the same or better mileage vs gasoline, but again, you need to set the engine up for that and after it's done you won't be able to run pump gas any longer.

E85 Remedy with HPFP Hardware modifications
 

Injector duty cycle must be calculated, similar to calculated load.
MAF calibration could effect IDC


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Hmm i need to do more research and how this would work exactly. Im Not to worried about fuel mileage if I can make it for stupid cheap. And why can't I have the cars cross compatible with e85?. Like our platform, its just a map switch and then letting the fuel trims settle/relearn. I am no expert on this subject by any means so school away if I'm way off.

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Just get it from the pump man. Trust me.

You running meth at all or anything? How big an intake? What's your g/s at 4.0 volts and what voltage are you hitting?

I will be getting it from the pump for the short for seeable future becuz I still live in Cali... It does suck tho cuz closest pump is like 45mims away... And only other ones are in the deep inner city of san Francisco and east bay. I will not be traveling far on it thts for sure.

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@Enki;
[ATTACH]Attachment 219238[/ATTACH]

Oh, that's dynojet numbers, so you're hitting normal limits on full corn then.

Problem is there is nothing cheap about farming corn. Making e isnt that complicated, we made it in my organic chem class last semester.

Would the IE fuel pump internals have anything to do with his high IDC capacity?

The next @MSP611; :njspeed3:

http://netstorage.discovery.com/feed...dNewTimers.jpg

Thts wat I'm talkin about lol... Guess well see it can't be tht expensive to farm corn... For my uses I don't think ud need tht much. Can also buy corn instead of growin it. U can also use barley or wheat one of the 2 as well I was reading

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Jesus christ guys, if you're going to make hooch you don't do it from something as expensive as corn; you use the proper strong yeast with something akin to sugar water. It's the sugar source that will be the most expensive.

You can use sugar cane and sugar beets as well like brazil but there is a reason we use corn to make e. You will not even get close to making e efficiently, it will be cheaper to buy it. Bu of you are still interested syngenta makes a gmo specifically for ethanol and the corn is purple.

Growing enough corn to produce ethanol, without selling it or raising livestock will have someone looking at you; pot farmers grow in between rows to hide it, you will have the DEA and the ATF looking in your general direction. Before you add the denaturant, it might proved to be a tasty beverage as well :)

Of course the math will need to be done but I will have the space to do so... Its just an interesting topic and I would like to delve further into this topic and look into it

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You need some corn seed? I have tons.


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Maybe in the future... Just doin research and looking at avenues I could take.. I won't b Tryin this till after I leave shitty California.

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Come to ENM and then maybe you can catch up with Jim Tom LOL. This is the week after ENM@MDC 2015:
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...38889982_o.jpg

I'm not so sure he'll be able to help you with things like column distillation and other industrial refinement techniques and equipment though.

Won't be makin it to any big meets any time in the near future becuz of job constraints, unless they just so happen to be happening the times I'm home. Would love to talk further with someone about this.

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