E85 Remedy with HPFP Hardware modifications

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by udntknw Have you been to apr's site (company cpe uses for pumps)? They have an exploded diagram as a picture somewhere in the main pages that shows what looks like o rings and scrapers. I thought I also read somewhere in the many threads here that the cp-e pumps seem handle e85 better. Any known truth to that? Just tapa it in.

Yes, i have. They might handle e85 better, and they might not. I have not personally seen one of their pumps, so its only theoretical to me. I am still not convinced that even a perfect seal will fix the problem.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

Originally Posted by 2011speed Anyone have gunk issues with 5050?

Black death or just a sticky SV?

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[2011speed]

Originally Posted by littleloogy Yes, i have. They might handle e85 better, and they might not. I have not personally seen one of their pumps, so its only theoretical to me. I am still not convinced that even a perfect seal will fix the problem. Sent while cleaning my spill valve again... Black death or just a sticky SV? Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

Well Iknow a few cases of Black Death but it seems as though it's rare on 5050. But what about sticky sv

[Constantin]

Originally Posted by udntknw Have you been to apr's site (company cpe uses for pumps)? They have an exploded diagram as a picture somewhere in the main pages that shows what looks like o rings and scrapers. I thought I also read somewhere in the many threads here that the cp-e pumps seem handle e85 better. Any known truth to that? Just tapa it in.

There were comments in @Enki;'s thread from people who have CP-E pumps and still have the same experience.

[udntknw]

Originally Posted by Constantin There were comments in @Enki;'s thread from people who have CP-E pumps and still have the same experience.

I was pretty sure there still was, just couldn't remember everything i had read. It all starts blurring together.

Just tapa it in.

[littleloogy]

On the drive to work this morning, I watched my fuel pressure start to drop at a stop light. 750, 700, 650, 500, 400, 250. I said to myself, "don't you quit on me now!" I had to feather the throttle to keep the pressure up. By the time I got to work my idle pressure was fine. I don't know what that was about. Silly car, wants to go fast not sit at stoplights. I'll monitor my startup at my lunch.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[cshunter]

Originally Posted by littleloogy On the drive to work this morning, I watched my fuel pressure start to drop at a stop light. 750, 700, 650, 500, 400, 250. I said to myself, "don't you quit on me now!" I had to feather the throttle to keep the pressure up. By the time I got to work my idle pressure was fine. I don't know what that was about. Silly car, wants to go fast not sit at stoplights. I'll monitor my startup at my lunch. Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

How much feathering was needed? Could the idle be raised a little to not have that happen again, or if that becomes a common issue.

Sent from my Evil Nexus 5

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by cshunter How much feathering was needed? Could the idle be raised a little to not have that happen again, or if that becomes a common issue. Sent from my Evil Nexus 5

Not very much, just a tap of the throttle. If it does it again, I will increase idle by ,100 rpms.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[Enki]

Sounds like black death to me. Might be time to pull the pump and clean the internals.

[littleloogy]

I don't know. I turned on my ac compressor (more load) fuel pressure stayed between 750-800.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[timjs]

I think you should keep driving it. Make your testing as comprehensive as you can. If you take the pump apart now, you won't know what WOULD have happened if you didnt.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by littleloogy I don't know. I turned on my ac compressor (more load) fuel pressure stayed between 750-800. Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

What is your idle RPM set at right now?

Also, here is a picture of the APR pump for reference:


APR 2.0T FSI High Pressure Fuel Pump

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by timjs I think you should keep driving it. Make your testing as comprehensive as you can. If you take the pump apart now, you won't know what WOULD have happened if you didnt.

I will drive this car until it no longer can builds pressure. I got a 2 hr road trip tomorrow we should have 500 miles on odometer in about 24 hrs. Plus I got an emergency spill valve replacement kit that rides shotgun with me.

As for the loosing pressure at idle, I am going to attempt to tune it out. I will adjust my AC on idle and adjust my fuel pressure @ the load at which my car idles with the AC on. That way if I start to loose pressure at a stop light, all I need to do is push a button to increase idle and fuel pressure ;-)

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[mazdafreak]

Yup, sounds like black death hitting you.


And i was one of the ppl running a cpe pump, and had less spill valve issues than ppl running autotechs or other pump......I didnt rly get any black death, but just a sticky spill valve.

[littleloogy]

Black death can kiss my scrotum.
When I pull my pump, (after I loose pressure) I'll throw in my fastener with the updated seals from a modern 2.0t engine. Like the fastener APR uses.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[forcedinduktion]

Originally Posted by 2011speed Anyone have gunk issues with 5050?

20k and not a hiccup

[Koke382]

Originally Posted by forcedinduktion 20k and not a hiccup

Good cuz im starting my 50/50 mix tune with rob already lol

sent from my peepee

[littleloogy]

How far has black death been pushed? Is black death like a cancer? If left untreated will it eventually spread to my relief valve, then to my injectors? This would be no good...

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[mazdafreak]

Originally Posted by littleloogy How far has black death been pushed? Is black death like a cancer? If left untreated will it eventually spread to my relief valve, then to my injectors? This would be no good... Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

Yes eventually.......I kno evo guys that run E clean their injectors I think every off season or so....I just recently cleaned my injectors too.

[Bratschist]

As I see it, and according to Enki's findings, BD only occurs bc oil gets in the pump from the cam and gets cooked with the e. For it to reach the injectors, oil would have to not only get in the pump but also travel through the line to injectors AND reach the temperature needed to cook. I don't know if evos have the same kind of pump we do, but isn't it possible that just like cobalt ss pumps are better then ours, evo pumps could be worse and let oil pass to the injectors? Just bc it happens with evos it does not necessarily mean that it would happen with the MZR. On the other hand, I could be completely wrong, though I don't think I'm that far off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Deldran]

Evos are port injected no cam driven pump any talk about what happens to evos has no use in relation to our platform

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[Bratschist]

Proof that I'm really not that far off


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[mazdafreak]

Well i meant just ruuning E85 in general youll need to clean injectors etc.....Not cause black death......Black death will happen only in pump where oil and gas mixes.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by Deldran Evos are port injected no cam driven pump any talk about what happens to evos has no use in relation to our platform Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Exactly. I'd imagine the 1600+PSI of fuel pressure would help to keep the injectors/hard line clean. If possible, you'd probably want to have those stainless filters installed on the injectors to replace the plastic ones.

[Enki]

A couple of things:

1. Sticky death is what affects the spill valve; the super thin sticky film that may look bownish-yellow but comes off super easy with some lighter fluid. You can tell if you have this by using a finger nail to actuate the needle in the spill valve; if it sticks before opening, sticky death is present.

2. Black death is the nasty black shit you see in pics of people's pumps, specifically in the retaining nut area. It builds up even in pump gas only cars after so many miles. You can tell if you have black death by removing the pump and trying to manually actuate the internals (spring and all) if it's slow to return, or doesn't return all the way, or just generally feels odd when actuating, you probably have black death.

3. Black death is worse than sticky death, because it causes all sorts of strange behavior with the pump, off and on. Also, the pump has to be pulled to rectify it; if you have it bad enough that pressure is affected at idle or under low loads, chances are one tank of pump gas ain't gonna fix it for you. Even if it could, would you really want to risk your engine with no fuel pressure?

4. I've never cleaned my injectors...Ever.

6... ?

[littleloogy]

Here is a log of my pressure dropping on my way to work sitting at a stop light.
SVM 235 miles Pressure Drop.csv

Here is my WOT Log on my way home from work.
SVM 240 miles WOT pressure test.csv

Meh.

[Enki]

From the WOT log:

1791.15
1669.33
1753.44
1538.8
1693.98
1595.36
1860.77

COULD be spill valve but not sure. Kind of looks like spill valve behavior; maybe pull it out and clean it real quick, see if it still drops off?

[littleloogy]

It does to me also. It reminds me of when the button valve got a little sticky before I did your spring mod.
I will let it be for now, I want to see if I can hit 500 miles. Then I will disassemble my SV and note my findings. If I still have pressure drop after a squeaky clean SV. I'll pull the pump and clean it, then Insert the new seal. Then try it again...

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[TiGraySpeed6]

Would it make sense to clean the pump and then run it for a day to verify pressures, then insert new seal?

[obijack]

@MZRSPEED; This is awesome stuff right her.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 Would it make sense to clean the pump and then run it for a day to verify pressures, then insert new seal?

no way José. I don't think it will make a difference, but if you want me too... I don't mind notating more detail.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[littleloogy]

My damn button valve was stuck this morning. I had to pull my SV, Button was cock eyed. Sticky gunk had been building up on the sides causing the button to be off center, eventually leading to failure. I did not clean my upper SV, pressure is back to normal.

Edit: I did not have time for pictures, this caused me to be late to work.
Also, this test is only for The top spring mod. Cleaning my button valve will not taint the results.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by 2011speed Anyone have gunk issues with 5050?

Not really. Few people have had their gen2 fuel level sensor shit out though.

@phate; what did your idc's look like on 100% e85?

[Enki]

So that's something else we need to address unless we can keep the oil from entering the pump in the first place...Maybe a PTFE sleeve or something...But that would require milling to the button receiver...Hmmmm....

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 @phate; what did your idc's look like on 100% e85?

I recall seeing a log from Phate's car where pressure was starting to dip between 3500 and 4500 RPM; he was maxing out the fuel system on the stock turbo, and I'm pretty sure that if he could somehow manage even a little more airflow up top (10-20 g/s), that he'd have pressure drop at redline as well, if not at least sputter.

[littleloogy]

Either that or keeping temps in the spill valve area below boiling boiling point, 142 degrees I believe?

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[phate]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Not really. Few people have had their gen2 fuel level sensor shit out though. phate what did your idc's look like on 100% e85?

We were seeing >110% IDC at times. We saw as high as 140-ish % when things went super rich. But, that was back in the days of MAF scaling, which seemed to alter the IDC figures more than it should have.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by littleloogy Either that or keeping temps in the spill valve area below boiling boiling point, 142 degrees I believe? Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

time for AC to evap core hose reroute mod around CDFP.

BTW good stuff going on up in here. I'm growing tired of going to two pumps every time I fill up.

[littleloogy]

Anyone care to lecture me on the baffle design on our hp pumps? I was wondering if anyone has fucked with it. Do we even need it? I am thinking about ditching it and letting the fuel free flow in the chamber.

I would image that someone has tried this in an attempt to increase flow. I have yet to come across anything of this sort on MSF.


Without baffle (no fuel restrictions)




And here are the pieces being assembled.

[Enki]

Removing the baffle will result in pressure fluctuations. I'd recommend against removing it as it won't result in more flow at all; these pumps are positive displacement, and if memory serves, the baffle section is before the spill valve and helps to dampen pressure waves sent BACK to the ITFP by the internals; removing this might actually result in premature failure of the ITFP regulator.

As a side note, I don't even take that section apart anymore, since there's nothing that can really get stuck IMO.

[littleloogy]

At about 480 miles black death accrued, I struggled for nearly 20 miles to maintain pressure. I could hear my cam follower clashing against the piston in the pump, finally got in my garage and parked it. Woke up early Saturday morning and pulled the pump. The piston was literally seized, separating the plunger was not easy.


I cleaned the internals with kerosene, and reinstalled the pump. I have had 550 some odd miles on the modified top needle valve without it needing cleaning.
I have confirmed that with the oil I am running, I can go about 50 miles before black death starts to develop in my pump. I am using this as my base to see if modifications are working or not. I am placing another parts order. My current goal now is to attempt to lower the HPFP temps, to keep the fuel from boiling in the first place. I will do some testing throughout the week and post up progress.

[Enki]

Just out of curiosity, you aren't oiling the internals/pump when you put it back together are you?