E85 Remedy with HPFP Hardware modifications

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Enki Just out of curiosity, you aren't oiling the internals/pump when you put it back together are you?

No, I am using solvents. Doing so would be no good.

[littleloogy]

Tally Another genpu tank level failure @ 640 miles. For a while I thought my MPG went up significantly.... Nope, oh well, I'll have to get my fuel measuring stick out.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[Nitr0EngiE]

Why aren't we just running half a bottle of sea foam or detergent with e85 to prevent these issues

I'd marvel mystery oil not worth the pennies

Had anyone tried a bottle of sea foam to fix gas leveler

[Enki]

Probably because on less than a quarter tank, a full bottle of MMO did nothing, as did another gallon of naphtha?

It won't even prevent issues in the pump; as far as fuel level sensor goes, that remains to be determined.

[Constantin]

@adlpb;'s fuel sensor went out on 50/50. If I recall correctly E85 destroyed some components. Which means additives will probably not work as an effort to save fuel sensor.

[Nitr0EngiE]

so this only a gen 2 issue for fuel level sensor

I still feel a cleaning agent like sea foam I'm the gas still prevent spill valve gum

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Nitr0EngiE so this only a gen 2 issue for fuel level sensor

Yes.

Originally Posted by Nitr0EngiE I still feel a cleaning agent like sea foam I'm the gas still prevent spill valve gum

No.

[JgamB]

Every forum I've read about E85 gunk says it dissolves in gasoline almost instantly. I think the best preventative for cleaning out the tank is flashing your 91/93 tune and suffering for 300 miles, or just try half a tank.

Everything from carburetors, injectors, intake plenums, and our HPFPs get the crud. It's almost unanimously inconsistent between cars getting gunked and those that are not. I think we're missing a control variable here, whether it's the in-ground tanks, pipes and pumps, heat, moisture, blends, whatever.

I applaud the effort, but I think this is going to be really hard to pin down - or it would've been solved on at least one of these vehicle platforms by now.

Hitachi Automotive Group provides HPFPs for the Penske racing team that runs E85. I'm sure they don't get their fuel from your friendly neighborhood gas station, so it might be worth shooting them an email to see if they have some advice.

[adlpb]

Originally Posted by Constantin @adlpb;'s fuel sensor went out on 50/50. If I recall correctly E85 destroyed some components. Which means additives will probably not work as an effort to save fuel sensor.

Correct. From what I recall, E85 has more electrical conductivity than gasoline, so it creates a short in the tank level sensor. This is a gen2 problem only.

Because pu Those with bad fuel level sensors

[Bratschist]

Originally Posted by JgamB Every forum I've read about E85 gunk says it dissolves in gasoline almost instantly. I think the best preventative for cleaning out the tank is flashing your 91/93 tune and suffering for 300 miles, or just try half a tank. Everything from carburetors, injectors, intake plenums, and our HPFPs get the crud. It's almost unanimously inconsistent between cars getting gunked and those that are not. I think we're missing a control variable here, whether it's the in-ground tanks, pipes and pumps, heat, moisture, blends, whatever. I applaud the effort, but I think this is going to be really hard to pin down - or it would've been solved on at least one of these vehicle platforms by now. Hitachi Automotive Group provides HPFPs for the Penske racing team that runs E85. I'm sure they don't get their fuel from your friendly neighborhood gas station, so it might be worth shooting them an email to see if they have some advice.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but the problem for us is gunk leading to fuel pressure drop, which could happen in the middle of a tank full of e85. So what you're suggesting is empty the tank or wait out until it's over to change to gasoline. Which by the way, I'm not sure will work. Hence the reason why we are trying to find a hardware solution to this problem, To hopefully prevent oil from entering a faulty designed HPFP.


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[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by JgamB ...I applaud the effort, but I think this is going to be really hard to pin down -

Oh, thanks for the encouragement....(sarcasm)

Until it is figured out how we can run this fuel safely, without needing maintenance. I will not stop trying. Besides, everyone has a different way of thinking. We all have our own angles to solve this problem. Maybe we will succeed, maybe we wont. In the meantime, let's focus on positive thinking. Besides, what else am I going to do with my spare time?

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[JgamB]

Originally Posted by Bratschist Please correct me if I'm wrong but the problem for us is gunk leading to fuel pressure drop, which could happen in the middle of a tank full of e85. So what you're suggesting is empty the tank or wait out until it's over to change to gasoline. Which by the way, I'm not sure will work. Hence the reason why we are trying to find a hardware solution to this problem, To hopefully prevent oil from entering a faulty designed HPFP.

My clean out tank comment of 91/93 was for the faulting fuel level sensors, not to solve the HPFP woes. You don't need to be running straight E85 to have that problem.

And this might seem stupid, but I posted on the Penske race team Facebook site asking them what type of Shell oil they use for the Hitachi CDFP Indy car that burns E85. Doesn't hurt to go fishing.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by JgamB Every forum I've read about E85 gunk says it dissolves in gasoline almost instantly. I think the best preventative for cleaning out the tank is flashing your 91/93 tune and suffering for 300 miles, or just try half a tank.

The "crud" that other cars get is not the same as what our cars get. I'm fairly certain that everything you've read elsewhere about e85 crud has to do with port injectors getting clogged up and nothing to do with DI cars getting clogged up. While going back to pump gas will likely abate symptoms, it will never fully cure them, and going back to full e85 will likely result in issues before you even get out of the gas station. Keep in mind the worst pump I have ever seen in person was off a CX7 with 90k miles and was so laden with black death I had to pry the collar off the stock internals. It was a fucking nightmare.

Originally Posted by JgamB Everything from carburetors, injectors, intake plenums, and our HPFPs get the crud. It's almost unanimously inconsistent between cars getting gunked and those that are not. I think we're missing a control variable here, whether it's the in-ground tanks, pipes and pumps, heat, moisture, blends, whatever.

See above; I'm pretty sure a 90k mile cx7 pump with seized stock internals saw no e blends higher than 10%.

Originally Posted by JgamB I applaud the effort, but I think this is going to be really hard to pin down - or it would've been solved on at least one of these vehicle platforms by now.

It has been solved on at least one platform already; the pump I dissected from a Cobalt SS has the answer, and I'm pretty sure none of those cars have issues on full e85 other than needing cam modifications to allow more flow.

Originally Posted by JgamB Hitachi Automotive Group provides HPFPs for the Penske racing team that runs E85. I'm sure they don't get their fuel from your friendly neighborhood gas station, so it might be worth shooting them an email to see if they have some advice.

I think we have this handled, actually; we just need someone to set up a configuration with a Mazda pump like what the Cobalt SS has. I am extremely confident that preventing any oil from entering the pump will 100% resolve all issues we encounter with full E85.

[Easter Bunny]

Guys please read the other e85 threads before posting "easy" solutions in this thread. A lot of effort has been put into solving these problems resulting in a lot of frustration and leading to this thread which is looking for a silver bullet in the form of a pump modification that will eliminate e85 issues.

The silver bullet is not seafoam or marvel mystery oil or running 93 octane gas. Trust me if it was that simple this problem would have been solved already.This isn't a new problem and there are some smart people putting in a lot of elbow grease to fix it. Please keep the armchair quarterbacking to a minimum.

[littleloogy]

Well said @Easter Bunny;
@Dano; Sure an A/C evap reroute would be the answer to our problems, but let's take this one step at a time. While I am currently testing an additive, (different upper SV) I have decided to collect some data while I burn through this tank.

I want to figure out where all the heat is coming from and how the heat transfers through the pump as we are:
1.) Going WOT (LOG)
2.) Cruising
3.) Idling 30 30-90 seconds
4.) Turning off and cooling down.

Once I figure out where the heat is originating form, I will then focus on how to prevent that heat from reaching boiling temps.

Here is my plan:

Get some thermistors and place them around the pump kind of like so...

I will run some cat5 cable from the thermistors to my cab. I will be monitoring temps with my ohm meters. Here is a couple of pics while I calibrated the thermistors.


I'll start placing the components tomorrow night, and I will be using thermal compound to ensure that nearby temps will not affect my readings.



Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[Koke382]

Does the hairy belly help?


I joke I joke I kid I kid! Lol



sent from my peepee

[Enki]

*Slaps $20 on the table*

In order of heat accumulation:

1. Direct from head adapter (the thing the pump bolts to)
2. Oil
3. Actuation of the pump internals (minor)

Thus, I'm betting there will be a temp spike on the internals themselves first (the oil will get more heat than the head will initially, since aluminum likes to dissipate it), then the mounting surface, and lastly the outlet to hard line.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Enki *Slaps $20 on the table*

I giggled when I read that... Beer seems to make me giggle.

Originally Posted by Enki Thus, I'm betting there will be a temp spike on the internals themselves first (the oil will get more heat than the head will initially, since aluminum likes to dissipate it), then the mounting surface, and lastly the outlet to hard line.

When I think of our pumps, I am reminded of an air compressor. When the air is compressed it can reach really high temperatures. I am curious how hot our fuel gets when it is compressed to 1800 psi.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[Enki]

Originally Posted by littleloogy When I think of our pumps, I am reminded of an air compressor. When the air is compressed it can reach really high temperatures. I am curious how hot our fuel gets when it is compressed to 1800 psi.

While this is true, keep in mind that it's compressing a very small volume a very small amount to get that pressure, and it's doing it through the entire rail/line assembly, which can wick heat away.

Regardless, it will be *amazing* data to have, even if it doesn't get used. I doubt any other DI platform would have this kind of granular information.

[Dano]

@littleloogy;

I was kidding about the AC line...lol I'll keep my smartass comments to myself..for now.

[Enki]

You may have been kidding, but a return style system with a cold can might actually help with issues.

[littleloogy]

Every night when I get home I have been putting a fan on my pump. Along with my secret fuel additive (I will share my findings after my tank is empty or when my car blows up) with 50 miles my spill valve looks cleaner then when I started.

The additive has started to eat at the goo that i left on the bottom next to the button valve.


Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[Enki]

In before hobo semen.

Also if the new additive works, it should get its own thread and a sticky in the section.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Enki In before hobo semen. Also if the new additive works, it should get its own thread and a sticky in the section.

I agree that Semen is sticky. For all I know it could be the silly fan on my pump. Tonight I will ditch the fan. Besides, I don't want my electricity bill to get too high.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[chapdawg]

subbed, this is amazing research and i don't want to miss anything.

[someguy]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 I have no e85 access, but it like were this is going.

We've got E85 somewhere near Guelph apparently if you were ever really looking for it.

[Constantin]

Originally Posted by littleloogy Besides, I don't want my electricity bill to get too high.

I'm for PayPal donation account for this cause. Really, you and @Enki; should bare all the cost...

[Enki]

While I can't speak for @littleloogy;, I don't need the cash but thanks for the offer.

[littleloogy]

I'm rich. I wipe with C-notes... I was being sarcastic about the 22watt fan consuming energy. I really appreciate you offering to fund the project though. :-)

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[udntknw]

Originally Posted by littleloogy I'm rich. I wipe with C-notes... I was being sarcastic about the 22watt fan consuming energy. I really appreciate you offering to fund the project though. :-) Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

Can you wipe my ass with c-notes?

Just tapa it in.

[Constantin]

Originally Posted by littleloogy I'm rich. I wipe with C-notes... I was being sarcastic about the 22watt fan consuming energy. I really appreciate you offering to fund the project though. :-) Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

I know My point was, since you are doing in for the benefit off all of us, there could be something that everybody can do to help and feel involved.

Anyhow, case closed, let's not derail the tread.

[Enki]

The *best* thing anyone can do is to test his findings and confirm/deny them. The more data sets we get piled into this thread, the closer we get to finding our final resolution.

Science, bitch.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by someguy We've got E85 somewhere near Guelph apparently if you were ever really looking for it.

Nope. Don't carry it anymore.
Wouldn't let me pump it if they did, and didn't pump it into cars without flexfuel stickers.
That was two years ago.

[Dano]

That's just communist...er I guess socialist. not letting you pump it into non flex cars

[littleloogy]

Its racist!

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Enki You may have been kidding, but a return style system with a cold can might actually help with issues.

very expensive, complicated test though...if only one of the 5th port guys with a return style setup would try this....

I am hoping for a mechanical mod to the pump as a solution. keep up the good work littleloogy

[Enki]

I didn't mean for that to be a permanent fix; a cold can setup would really only be viable for drag racing or autocross, not for daily driving.

[littleloogy]

Work has been delayed this passed week, I apologize. My better half believes that I love my car more then I do her. Though that might be true, I could not let her think that. Worry not, I will be back at it shortly.

Oh and I got a new toy over the weekend it tells me:
1.) Dissolved oxygen
2.) Conductivity
3.)PH
4.)relative humidity
5.) Tempature
6.) Turbidity

I don't know what I will use it for... But thought it was cool.

[InkedInspector]

In regards to the ethanol dissolving in gasoline, just some fyi, ford vehicles sold that are E85 compatible have a note in the owners manual that if you opt to run e85 you must run one tank of gasoline at the recommended oil change intervals.

[SparkySparks]

Originally Posted by InkedInspector In regards to the ethanol dissolving in gasoline, just some fyi, ford vehicles sold that are E85 compatible have a note in the owners manual that if you opt to run e85 you must run one tank of gasoline at the recommended oil change intervals.

Interesting, I've been doing something similar but doing it every third oil change roughly. I need to take my pump apart and see how it looks and compare it to one of the other locals who hasn't been doing that.

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