E85 Remedy with HPFP Hardware modifications

[Spec]

Originally Posted by SparkySparks Interesting, I've been doing something similar but doing it every third oil change roughly. I need to take my pump apart and see how it looks and compare it to one of the other locals who hasn't been doing that. Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Like mine. Let's do it.

[SparkySparks]

Originally Posted by Spec Like mine. Let's do it.

Exactly who I was thinking, are speeds are very similar: only a month apart both in build date and when we bought them, similar mods, went on E about the same time, did EGR delete about the same time, catch cans went on about the same time, the only difference is I'm running a little more E and put on a little more mileage and I alternate a tank of 93 second or third oil change. If for nothing else it would be good for us just to check.

I saw someone post a picture of a gas pump that had all the normal flavors of gas plus several straight gasoline options as well as a 100% E option. Would love to have one of those gas stations near me and the ability to run 100% E!

@littleloogy; Hope we aren't derailing your thread, just thought any info we could help gather would be good info.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by SparkySparks Exactly who I was thinking, are speeds are very similar: only a month apart both in build date and when we bought them, similar mods, went on E about the same time, did EGR delete about the same time, catch cans went on about the same time, the only difference is I'm running a little more E and put on a little more mileage and I alternate a tank of 93 second or third oil change. If for nothing else it would be good for us just to check. I saw someone post a picture of a gas pump that had all the normal flavors of gas plus several straight gasoline options as well as a 100% E option. Would love to have one of those gas stations near me and the ability to run 100% E! @littleloogy; Hope we aren't derailing your thread, just thought any info we could help gather would be good info.

Yeah, you pretty much train wreaked my whole project... You bastards!

After I prove or disprove additives in my other thread I will be starting this up again. At times like this I wish I had two speeds... I guess I'll just have to continue playing leapfrog.

Sent from a Galaxy far far away...

[wdautrem]

Originally Posted by SparkySparks I saw someone post a picture of a gas pump that had all the normal flavors of gas plus several straight gasoline options as well as a 100% E option. Would love to have one of those gas stations near me and the ability to run 100% E!

Up until about a month ago there was a station here in town that had E30 on tap. That was sweet. I'd guess I was the only one who ever bought any though.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Spectrix The VW baffle cap on the right is very interesting as it opens up a possibility for passive cooling; fuel heats and passes out of the the HPFP, drawing cool fuel in (the same principle as hot air rising). Do you know the purpose of the baffle cap inlet/outlet for that motor?

The purpose of the cap is actually for low pressure fuel inlet and what appears to be an access port for fuel pressure testing on the low pressure side (ITFP line pressure). The pump does not have fuel inlet connectors like we have on the MZR. There is no way to connect our lines to the Audi/VW hpfp.

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[Spectrix]

Lets say the MZR baffle cover (left) is replaced with the VW baffle/inlet cap (right) with the two ports blocked.
The pump then has more metal & fuel to heat up after shut down, plus a better fuel : oil ratio as it has a larger capacity of fuel as it cools down.

It might not stop the boiling, but perhaps it will have less impact of forming sticky.




The next option is phenolic spacer between the matching surfaces of the head & fuel pump;
The spacer can be very thin as it only has a small surface area to transfer heat through.

You can see they made the surface area as small as possible already -

[Enki]

Lol fix that embedded image with a save and direct upload.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Spectrix Lets say the MZR baffle cover (left) is replaced with the VW baffle/inlet cap (right) with the two ports blocked. The pump then has more metal & fuel to heat up after shut down, plus a better fuel : oil ratio as it has a larger capacity of fuel as it cools down. It might not stop the boiling, but perhaps it will have less impact of forming sticky. The next option is phenolic spacer between the matching surfaces of the head & fuel pump; The spacer can be very thin as it only has a small surface area to transfer heat through. You can see they made the surface area as small as possible already -

Way ahead of you... Got my template made. I just have to cut my blanket and install it on my pump.

This is a flexible Aerogel blanket. A very high resistance to heat transfer.

I just worry about the gasket causing my clearance tolerance in my pump to be way out of spec causing fueling problems.

[Enki]

Also have to take into consideration that hot as fuck oil splashes all over the spring area, and the internals directly conduct heat through the cam follower, not to mention the side contact that happens on the part that installs into the head (the part with the o-ring).

As for the TIG causing fueling issues, best bet would be to measure the distance between follower all the way down and all the way up, as well as the distance of insertion and stroke capability of the internals (probably spring limited).

[Spectrix]

What size material is the gasket @littleloogy;?

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Spectrix What size material is the gasket @littleloogy;?

0.075" when I use the same "feel" on my micrometer. If I torque the pad down It looks like it will shrink somewhere between to 0.0560”-0.060"

[Enki]

General pump analysis going on here:

Dissecting the HPFP; Flow Limits and Potential Options

[littleloogy]

@Enki; I am going to find and install a stronger spring. At 3 lobes and at 4000 RPMs that equals 12,000 pumps per minute. There is no way that a stock return spring can return even half way let alone the full throw.

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[Nitr0EngiE]

Originally Posted by littleloogy @Enki; I am going to find and install a stronger spring. At 3 lobes and at 4000 RPMs that equals 12,000 pumps per minute. There is no way that a stock return spring can return even half way let alone the full throw. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

be very careful HPFP have seized intake cams and busted VVT before leading to bent valves and shit. upgrading any springs in the pump will put more stress on VVT so I only recommend these mods to people with DCR or PTP vvts

EDIT; on a side note .... where did anyone determine that our fuel boils ..... that just dont make sense. Maybe Im dumb. But i was under the impression fuel has a higher boiling point than coolant and has anyone actually attached a temperature probe between HPFP and the housing to measure the temps there ? I just really want to know where all this its boiling shit came from ...

[Nitr0EngiE]

Originally Posted by littleloogy @Enki; I am going to find and install a stronger spring. At 3 lobes and at 4000 RPMs that equals 12,000 pumps per minute. There is no way that a stock return spring can return even half way let alone the full throw. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

is your pumps per a minute accounting for the fact that the cams spin i believe at least 2x the times per 1 crank revolution so cams are at 8k rpm when crank is 4k ?

[littleloogy]

No, let me redo my math... 4000 RPMs X2 = 8,000 X 3 lobes.
24,000 pumps per minute? I don't know about all that. Sounds more like a humming bird.



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[Mazda Love]

Question, If the E is boiling due to heat from the internals? Pure ethanol boils at 173 degrees at one atmosphere. but at 2000 psi it will boil at >173F (unknown how high but probably closer to 200+) if you use the cap from the vw or something like that and have a relief valve going back to a t off the fuel line from the ITFP and wire it up to the Ignition. so when you turn your car on it shuts and when you turn your car off it opens and releases pressure to around 60-100psi, which is enough to start the car next time. Thus mixing with air temp fuel and causing it to lower its temp to <150f id assume. thus cooling and stopping the boiling of the fuel. as your car runs its not heating up significantly till its closer to the injectors at that point. i think trying this first before modding the pump would be a better start? ya or na? im currently looking for a valve and @littleloogy do you know the thread pitch on the vw cap? i want to try this in hopes De-looting the fuel with cooler fuel will help.

[chaser27]

Originally Posted by Nitr0EngiE is your pumps per a minute accounting for the fact that the cams spin i believe at least 2x the times per 1 crank revolution so cams are at 8k rpm when crank is 4k ?

You said it backwards. Cams spin at half the rate of the crank (4 stroke)

[Enki]

Cams make one revolution per engine cycle; a 4 stroke engine has a 2 revolution cycle, so our cams spin at exactly half the rate of the crank.

This gives us 1.5 cycles per revolution of the crank, or 5250 cycles per minute at 7000 revolutions per minute; this is 87.5 cycles per second at 7k RPM.

Originally Posted by Nitr0EngiE on a side note .... where did anyone determine that our fuel boils ..... that just dont make sense. Maybe Im dumb. But i was under the impression fuel has a higher boiling point than coolant and has anyone actually attached a temperature probe between HPFP and the housing to measure the temps there ? I just really want to know where all this its boiling shit came from ...

Per http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fu...nt-d_936.html:

Boiling points:
Ethanol: 172 degrees F.
Gasoline: 100-400 degrees F.

Looks to me like higher E-content has the potential to REDUCE boiling point of the fuel. Letting the car get nice and hot before shutdown, you can sometimes HEAR shit boiling in the pump, raising pressure until the ITFP regulator gives way and backflows, allowing for even more boiling.

And thus, the spill valve is left with nothing more than ethanol/gas vapors and a thin coat of oil in an extremely hot, pressurized environment. Sounds like a recipe for sticky to me.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Mazda Love words

The sad fact is that the HPFP is bolted directly to the head, and the internals are almost directly splashed with scalding hot engine oil. Removing pressure from the pump is probably just going to make the deaths develop faster, as the gradual release of pressure is going to remove some heat.

Ideally, we need some kind of return style system or better yet, a modified retaining nut that keeps near 100% of the oil out of the pump.

@littleloogy; do you have a set of pictures of a full breakdown of the 2.0t's retaining nut for the internals? It didn't look like theirs is the same as ours, and if their sealing system is better, and it can be retrofit to our pumps, that might be a good answer to our issues.

[Nitr0EngiE]

Originally Posted by Enki Cams make one revolution per engine cycle; a 4 stroke engine has a 2 revolution cycle, so our cams spin at exactly half the rate of the crank. This gives us 1.5 cycles per revolution of the crank, or 5250 cycles per minute at 7000 revolutions per minute; this is 87.5 cycles per second at 7k RPM. Per http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fu...nt-d_936.html: Boiling points: Ethanol: 172 degrees F. Gasoline: 100-400 degrees F. Looks to me like higher E-content has the potential to REDUCE boiling point of the fuel. Letting the car get nice and hot before shutdown, you can sometimes HEAR shit boiling in the pump, raising pressure until the ITFP regulator gives way and backflows, allowing for even more boiling. And thus, the spill valve is left with nothing more than ethanol/gas vapors and a thin coat of oil in an extremely hot, pressurized environment. Sounds like a recipe for sticky to me.

ok yeah i was not 100% sure i just know the cams dont spin the same times as the crank does so if this is the case then its not 12k times a minute or whatever loogy said its 6k.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Enki The sad fact is that the HPFP is bolted directly to the head, and the internals are almost directly splashed with scalding hot engine oil. Removing pressure from the pump is probably just going to make the deaths develop faster, as the gradual release of pressure is going to remove some heat.

I agree with you 100%. There are just way to many sources for heat transfer. If it is not the block it is the oil, its its not the oil its the High pressure line, and if its not the high pressure line its heat radiating off the engine/turbo. Isolation of the pump from heat is impossible. We have to get it out of everyone's head and to accept the fact that the pump housing will see +200 degree temps at shutdown.

Originally Posted by Enki @littleloogy; do you have a set of pictures of a full breakdown of the 2.0t's retaining nut for the internals? It didn't look like theirs is the same as ours, and if their sealing system is better, and it can be retrofit to our pumps, that might be a good answer to our issues.

There was only a glob of goo in there. The o-rings and springs were all melted together. The seals were spring loaded similar to this.

I found a wreaked GTI I need to go visit it and see if I can get the pump for a good price. If so, I can post up some pics.




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[littleloogy]

Tried calling APR get get a seal kit... They pretty much told me to fuck off. Even after I tried to explain how there could be a market to just sell their fastener. "Sorry our information in confidential."

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[littleloogy]

Here is the stock piston off the 2.0t. Notice the shiny part of the piston? I wonder if that was polished from the tight seal, or if it was polished from the factory to help aid the wiping possess.

[Enki]

That's undoubtedly the stroke length IMO. My stock internals look the same, wherever they are.

[littleloogy]

There is a measurable difference.


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[Enki]

That's a really good fucking seal then.

...

Or that rod is made from recycled Hondas.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Enki Or that rod is made from recycled Hondas.

Because Hondas don't hold up worth a shit? I can't believe you went there...

[Enki]

Originally Posted by littleloogy Because Hondas don't hold up worth a shit? I can't believe you went there...

It was a joke at any rate. The difference is what, a thousandth, maybe?

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Enki That's undoubtedly the stroke length IMO. My stock internals look the same, wherever they are.

I guess I could measure it for you... Let's see 23-55°×(-1.54+34%)times 6 XX beers {©®™∆}= +/- .5000 inches of travel. Well it was actually .5010, let's keep the numbers simple.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by littleloogy I guess I could measure it for you... Let's see 23-55°×(-1.54+34%)times 6 XX beers {©®™∆}= +/- .5000 inches of 8===D. Well it was actually .5010, let's keep the numbers simple.

Fixed that for you.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Enki @littleloogy; do you have a set of pictures of a full breakdown of the 2.0t's retaining nut for the internals? It didn't look like theirs is the same as ours, and if their sealing system is better, and it can be retrofit to our pumps, that might be a good answer to our issues.

Here are pics of the 2.0t retaining nut with the seal. Notice the seal is spring loaded? This will defiantly help keep the oil and fuel separated compared to our retaining nut.





Thinking about installing this fastener tomorrow in my pump.


Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

[littleloogy]

Here is the mock up of the hpfp cover. I need to get some fittings to route the lines correctly. The LP fuel inlet is in the way like this.


But with 180° of rotation, we are in business.


I am excited to watch how the ITFP pressure fluctuations as I go WOT. One thing at a time. Unfortunately Time is something I do not have a lot of.


Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

[Enki]

Watch out for that bottom mounting bolt being covered up by the new plate ports.

[littleloogy]

Yeah, it is a pain in the ass. I'll get it mounted one way or another. In case anyone cares. Here is my injection pump.



I don't think I'll need more then 100psi for injecting small amounts of cleaner.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

[Enki]

Anything more than 60 PSI will push fuel past the regulator and back into the tank.

[mazdafreak]

Ohh wow.....Hook me up!


Im so happy you have a ms3 to help test this shit out...My car is almost done. Was gonna run the additivie for time being tho.

[friedricebob]

Originally Posted by Enki Anything more than 60 PSI will push fuel past the regulator and back into the tank.

A thought occurs... isn't a large part of the problem the fact that fuel is left to vaporize in the hot pump after shutdown and leave behind residue? I saw a stipulation earlier that a return circulation system may solve all woes. What if you fed this or similar pump off of the fuel line and reverse flush for 60s with cool fuel after engine shutdown? Or delay 5min after shutdown and run 60s?

Go easy on me, thinking in brainstorm fashion.

[Enki]

It's all about thermal mass; the fuel in the tank vs the entire engine, coolant and oil.

[Enki]

Thinking about it more, TIGs *AND* a couple minutes return based system could potentially work miracles, if used in tandem....only way to know for sure is to do before/after comparisons using a thermal probe+logger (which would be handy info anyways).