E85 Remedy with HPFP Hardware modifications

[Mazdazilla6]

Damn. I really want to see a permanent hardware solution come about for the people who would like to daily on E. Additive solutions seem to be working great but I feel like that's more added maintenance which I (and probably a good amount of others) would rather not deal with.

I'm going to look over the patent info for our pump and see if anything sticks out to me.

[Enki]

Edit: Wrong thread.

[Mazdazilla6]

Ok so I read through the patent for our fuel pump, found here: Patent US20030017069 - High pressure fuel pump for internal combustion engine - Google Patents



And I've come up with the following for solutions (or at least help) with high Ethanol concentrations:

1. Coat the retaining nut and spill valve threading in a resin coating which would insulate the parts and keep heat from spreading.

2. Replacing seals with O, X, or K rings of superior sealing ability, or possibly adding additional seals.

3. Increasing the seal between the cylinder and the pump body. This could be done in couple of ways.
.......A. Increase the torque on the retaining nut to press the cylinder harder against the pump body.
.......B. Surface harden the cylinder so it can press into pump body to seal better. Possibly in combination with A.
.......C. Put some sort of deformable material such as part 70 between the cylinder and pump body to create a seal. Possibly in combination with A and ...........B.

4. Improving part 30, the seal between the cylinder and retaining nut could be improved.

Not all of these may work but that's what I came up with after going over the patent. If our pump isn't that different from the LNF pump then I think it's very possible to run full E85. The patent goes over the seals pretty extensively so I would definitely recommend taking a read of it.

Here is a picture to get a good idea of what I mean by sealing the cylinder to the pump body.



As well as a picture of seal 30 and 70.

[Enki]

Counter arguments for each; not trying to shit on your rainbow but I've thought about the pump design at great length as well.

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 1. Coat the retaining nut and spill valve threading in a resin coating which would insulate the parts and keep heat from spreading.

The internals themselves have direct contact with super hot engine oil as well as a set of lobes on the camshaft; heat conduction will happen regardless.

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 2. Replacing seals with O, X, or K rings of superior sealing ability, or possibly adding additional seals.

Our pumps actually have *two* seals/oil control surfaces already. One is an X shaped buna ruing on the narrow end of the retaining nut, and the other is a little plastic scraper backed by a regular shaped o-ring on the fat end. I had my gunsmith drill this part out and plug it with a piece of PTFE that was also center drilled, but the tolerances are so fucking tight that when tightening the last couple of threads on the nut, the drilled hole in the PTFE was off just enough to seize the internals and prevent actuation, so that idea was scrapped. Yes, he used a drill press and lined it all up while installed in the retaining nut.

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 3. Increasing the seal between the cylinder and the pump body. This could be done in couple of ways.

If you're going to increase the seal anywhere, it should be on the narrow end of the retaining nut. Closing off the internals from allowing fuel to flow around/through them will result in metal on metal contact and a hardware failure; I'm pretty (~99%) sure that the cause of the issue is oil entering the pump.

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 4. Improving part 30, the seal between the cylinder and retaining nut could be improved.

See 3.

Our best bet right now (both cost and effort wise) is oil + additive, which so far has been promising to a remarkable degree.

[pzr2874]

At what point (*) is this happening though? I know oil coolers assist in this but too cool of oil isn't good either. I'm sure someone has thought of this, just didn't see it.

[Enki]

It probably happens at a lower temperature with a hot pump due to the innate 40-60 psi the pump will see at resting preventing the e from boiling and removing heat.

[cletusb]

Just found these fuel pump internals that I don't think have ever been tried on a MS

Integrated Engineering

Seems to come with a retaining nut?

[littleloogy]

Wonder if they can service a mzr pump. They appear to be like APR, requiring you to send in the pump to be rebuilt. Its nice that I have a spare pump here, just need the money to send it in. I love new testing opportunities.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

[cletusb]

They offer a self install kit

Pump internal kit only- This is the entry-level HPFP kit for builders who prefer to assemble their HPFP themselves. Each kit includes all necessary components and a detailed install sheet to get the job done.

[littleloogy]

You're right, my mistake. I skimmed through the article failing to look at the top.
$500... Fuck.

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[cletusb]

Yeah the price is the first catch, might be worth calling them? See if they know anything about e85 compatibility etc

I would but in Australia :-)

[littleloogy]

I'm selling my internals. Going to be on my stock fp internals for a while. My stock clutch is gone so I can't really go fast anyway. My next internal set will be these. I have to try them out.

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[Enki]

Upgrade the flywheel while you're at it.

[Mazdazilla6]

Which option are you going with? Have you contacted them yet about ethanol compatibility?

[littleloogy]

I'm asking Santa for a new clutch. I'm debating on a few.

I'll call them after I lean all I can about them. If they don't work out I'll just pick up another set of at's or CS internals.

In the meantime... I'll be running the stock fuel pump on full E. I won't be putting a lot of load on the engine, fuel pressure "should" be OK.

Sent From a Galaxy, Far Far Away...

[Enki]

Zero your VVT, drop the boost. You'll be fine.

[littleloogy]

This sucks not only am I a slow fuck, my RV is failing too. 10 months of straight E is taking its toll on my fuel system. I'm going to have to run a few tanks on petrol to clean it out.

Normally after shutdown, my fuel pressure would climb to 1875psi then the RV would open. Now after shut down it immediately starts to loose pressure without climbing. Joy

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[Enki]

Is the engine hot? If it's not hot, it may not build pressure because there's no heat in the injectors/rail to cause it to increase in pressure.

[littleloogy]

I ran it for a good 20 mins... I take it for a longer drive tomorrow to Make sure

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[MSP6]

Did you dial your hpfp pressure settings in to keep em below the RV crack limit? If you just leave them all at 1700+ psi or whatever your RV will be constantly opening/closing throughout any WOT pull. Mine is set to 1700 or so for only a short window then tapers down at redline to prevent pressure from running away. Usually only one blip above 1800 or so for a 4th gear pull. Rest is mid-high 1700's.... Good pressure AND happy RV!

[littleloogy]

Well, I decided to get back to testing e85 death solutions. Last week I ordered Integrated Engineering's internal kit and it finally came it. This kit is beautiful. Check it out!



These internals come pre broken in, literally install and WOT (according to IE). Everything was individually wrapped in sealed plastic soaking in assembly lube. I can't wait to get them installed.

I have searched high and low on the audi/vw forums looking for a failure. There was none. I don't know of any Mazdaspeeds currently or ever using this Fuel Pump internal. So should be interesting.




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[littleloogy]

And a million thanks to @cletusb; for bringing this pump kit to my attention. I'd buy you a beer if you were not so god damn far away.


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[cletusb]

Thanks for being the guinea pig on the IE fuel pump internals. Looking forward to the the results

[Easter Bunny]

Originally Posted by littleloogy And a million thanks to @cletusb; for bringing this pump kit to my attention. I'd buy you a beer if you were not so god damn far away. Sent from my iPhone 6

Have you heard of PayPal?

[Enki]

Sprung replaceable scraper. Interesting.

[littleloogy]

I just like that the retaining nuts like the vw/Audi guys have is now available to us.


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[littleloogy]

Wow, these things are quiet. Sounds like I have stock internals. Throttle tip in sound is not Audible. I wish I had a way to monitor fuel pressure.

Assembly was simple, much like the autotechs except for getting the piston through the seal. The seal was tighter the a 16 year old virgin.




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[JgamB]

While it hasn't been a problem for us, cam follower fail has been a serious issue for the VW/Audi 2.0TFSI. I'm not saying it will be for you, but please take a look at your bucket now and watch for signs of wear. I know we don't have the oiling holes, but I also don't know if this is going to increase friction / resistance to the point it damages our cam follower. Just an FYI.

[littleloogy]

These internals were said to reduce cam follower wear on the 2.0t. I am sure I'll be okay. Besides, ran my pump for 400 miles with sticky internals. My cam follower still looks fine. I'll keep an eye on it, it's good to be cautious.


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[ItsNox]

Originally Posted by JgamB While it hasn't been a problem for us, cam follower fail has been a serious issue for the VW/Audi 2.0TFSI. I'm not saying it will be for you, but please take a look at your bucket now and watch for signs of wear. I know we don't have the oiling holes, but I also don't know if this is going to increase friction / resistance to the point it damages our cam follower. Just an FYI.

I came from the 2.0T platform and the cam follower fail is very real in their world. Some vendors/manufacturers have gone so far as to offer reinforced cam followers. Replacing the camshaft in an Audi is EXPENSIVE and thats what this leads to. Interesting enough, the Audi community absolutely swears by Welcome | HPFPUpgrade.com and we dont hear a mention of them in ours.

Curious to see your experience with these loogie.

Edit: Just opened hpfpupgrade.com and they even have injector seals.

[TiGraySpeed6]

Ohhhhh we hear mention of John/PTP/HPFPUpgrade/DFDD and whatever other name he's selling under these days....

Typically results in name calling, rock throwing, long shouting matches then he gets banned.

[ItsNox]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 Ohhhhh we hear mention of John/PTP/HPFPUpgrade/DFDD and whatever other name he's selling under these days.... Typically results in name calling, rock throwing, long shouting matches then he gets banned.

Musta been before my time. I missed all the good shit.

[Enki]

TLDR is he's a shady faggot and you and everyone else should avoid him like he's a leper.

[Dano]

In the collective eyes of MSF there is only a marginal difference between:

Ptp/dfdd/john
Cullen/streetunit
Rapebuilt
Oh and what was the guys name that was PCing rims or more correctly stealing them?

Lol.

Tappin

[Easter Bunny]

Shawn shreeve.

[Jarods7920]

Curious to see how these do on e85

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Jarods7920 Curious to see how these do on e85

Me too. Waiting on @CorkSport; to send my new AP. $22 for 2 day priority shipping. I ordered Monday, it still does not show that it shipped. I am thinking about getting a refund on shipping because of slowness.


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[Enki]

Edge drop ships them from Cobb directly with overnight shipping, if memory serves.

[Dano]

reading fail or typing fail...he ordered from corksport.

lol at Shawn Shreeve...he was raping guys on many forums if memory serves...

[littleloogy]

Yes, corksport. They are close to me. I figured I would be "smart" and order through them to get the product quickly.
I ordered the IE internals in the afternoon, they shipped same day. I was very impressed how fast they were.


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