E85 on Stock HPFP
 

My car is currently in good mechanical order with no boost leaks or other failures. I am maxed out on pump gas with the stock HPFP, and after discussion with @phate and @djuosnteisn I decided it would be a good experiment to see how much, if any, gains there would be by switching to 100% E85.

Goal: Compare performace of E85 against pump gas with a stock HPFP

Plan:

1. Layout current tune and estimate power figures via VDyno as a baseline
2. Disassemble stock HPFP and document condition prior to switching to E85
3. Start setting up new tune for E85:
3.1. Use existing tune as a starting point.
3.2. Lower boost targets from 18 max to 15
3.3. Scale MAF by a factor of 1.35, based on work done by @phate
3.4. Scale all tables using load as an axis by shifting table values to match (load * 1.35) to counteract MAF scaling
3.5. Iron out any remaining issues
3.6. Up boost until HPFP begins to lose pressure
3.7. Up timing to MBT/knock
4. Record any hardware issues as a result of E85. Dsiassemble HPFP as necessary and document.
5. Log runs on E85
6. Switch back to pump gas and original tune and log again for comparison

I have an initial E85 already created, and I will be puling the pump this Saturday.

FAQ:

1. Why scale MAF and not fueling?
- The concern is that there are still undiscovered fueling tables in the PCM. If so, scaling fuel instead of MAF would run the risk of running dangerously lean if one of the undiscovered tables is accessed.

2. Why not just buy a HPFP and not be a pussy?
- I want to know how far the MS3/MS6 platform can be pushed with minimal mods. It would also be interesting how far the platform can be pushed with minimal boost.

Great to see all these threads on people making the switch to e85. Big thanks to everyone
who is laying the ground work for this. Especially @phate for being the first to make the switch and start the e85 craze.
I'm going to be making the switch now that I got a store selling it down the street.

Should be a fun comparison, since the car will be severely fuel limited on the low end. It'll be interesting to see how boost really affects this car, since you'll be able to reach MBT without issue :)

MBT?

Interested in results!

@phate are you still running 100% or 50/50.

Minimum advance for Best Torque. It's the timing advance needed at defined RPM and load values so that peak cylinder pressure occurs at approximately 15 degrees ATDC.

On pump gas our engines are knock limited, so we always encounter knock before we can advance timing enough to reach MBT. With E85 this is no longer the case, and timing can be advanced past MBT without knock. Phate experienced this when dynoing on 100% E85.


Tapadatass

Good luck Daniel I'm sure the results will be interesting

Fo Sho! I wanted to do long term testing and really try to work with part throttle driving so I can see what nets us best mileage :)

Pictures of my stock CDFP internals prior to the E85 switch.

Before cleaning:

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...5/a3918af4.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...5/7325e852.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...5/972b6de9.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...5/085f74c5.jpg

After cleaning:

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...5/d4ed3643.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...5/38bb05e8.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...5/da407b01.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...5/018c1c69.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...5/e3b68fa2.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...5/9d206b6f.jpg


Tapadatass

And so it begins...

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...3/d44b8cd4.jpg


Tapadatass

I had about 3 gallons of petrol left in the tank when I filled up with E and flashed the new map. My LTFT's are in the -3% to -4% range; I expect them to get closer to 0% on the next tank as the last of the petrol is flushed out.


Tapadatass

That picture looks eerily like somone's avatar...

I have added another 3% to my MAF scaling, bringing it to 39% overall (3% more than the original 35%). I've also dropped boost to 14psi in the 3000-5000 RPM range due to FP dropping. Still haven't upped timing yet.

Car feels VERY strong at part-throttle though. Hopefully it will warm up and dry out enough this weekend for me to do a couple data logs and put into VD.


Tapadatass

Well, this experiment has ended early.

Did a couple WOT runs tonight, and after looking at them I have come to two conclusions:
1. A 3" catless DP will definitely cause the K04 to boost creep.
2. The stock HPFP CANNOT support 100% E85. There's just not enough flow.

I'll finally be caving in and buying HPFP internals.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...10-23-2011.jpg

Subbed so I can see pics when I get home

Started dropping fuel pressure to 60 PSI tonight. I've been on E85 for about 550-600 miles.

I'm ordering HPFP internals in the morning.


Tapadatass

If it's that low, I would pull the solenoid and check for goo!!

I'll do that tomorrow. What size nut is that again?


Tapadatass

I think it's a 32mm. I always use an adjustable wrench on it.

Confirmed 32mm; i have the wrench, works good.

Bought a 32mm combo wrench (man that sucker is huge) and pulled my spill valve yesterday.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...alveE85005.jpg

Cleaned it up, and after a couple spurts in the first two miles, the HPFP stopped kicking out.

very interested in this now. whats the average cost for this to run smoothly with this vehicle?

Fuel pump and tune (so AP). About 800 with no discounts I think?

I was having some pretty bad cold-start issues the last couple days (had to leave the car outside overnight instead of in the garage), so I switched from ITV-22's to stock heat range Autolite XP5364 plugs. The Denso's looked good and clean, with no signs of Carbon buildup.

My impression after the initial test drive is that the hotter plugs are smoother at part throttle, especially at low RPM (<3000). I'll update after a week or two.

Installed my Autotech internals tonight.

Oh, the gummy goodness:

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...medHPFP009.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...medHPFP007.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...medHPFP006.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...medHPFP004.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...medHPFP001.jpg

It all dissolved quite easily in gasoline.

All that goo was from ~600 miles on e85?

Finally, can't believe you held off all year. Could have possibly been the only speed guy without internals in IL. Haha, jus messin... That shit looks nasty.

Ouch

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

subbed

Jesus Christ your pump had some serious mudbutt going on there dude.

Pure speculation, but i think gen1 guys are more likely to loosen heavy deposits than gen2 guys.

:nana:

Agreed.

We're also more likely to loosen women's underpants. Your point?

;)


That gunk is from ~700 miles on E85 after ~70K on pump gas. I'm going to get some seafoam tomorrow and see if that will dissolve those deposits. If so, I'll seafoam every other tank of so.

I'm not worried about the pump; it's that gunk getting into my injectors that worries me.

and I was still faster than Josh.

I never did get my injectors cleaned. Still running strong, but I'm curious what it would do for me.
oh. damn.

It would definitely be interesting to have them flow tested before and after cleaning.

I had fuel cut issues again last night on the way home from work. I'm off work today (worked 30 hours on Saturday and Sunday), so I pulled the pump and disassembled it. More gunk, but it was all limited to the area above the piston and around the outside of the barrel of the Autotech internals. I wondered if the O-ring seal around the piston was leaking or degrading, so I pulled it out. No signs of swelling or damage. I would have replaced it, but it's not a typical O-ring with a cylindrical cross-section; It's squared-off.

Well, fuck MY life. Spill valve completely went out today. Absolutely WILL NOT activate - I get 55-70 PSI all the time.

EDIT: Talked to @phate, and decided to take my spill valve apart just to see. I couldn't find a SPECK of debris or buildup. Put the valve back together and tested with 12VDC - the bastard moved! Put it back in and it's working perfectly.

I think I should look into buying a spare HPFP, just in case...

Update?


-Jake

SHE RIDES!


Tapadatass

Good to hear


-Jake

Fucker's sticking again after only two days! $@"&¥&euro;#*+^%%+!!


Tapadatass

Hahahaha.


Some call it pioneering. Other's call it a pain in the ass.

GL man, and next time you take the spill valve and stuff apart for cleaning, you should do a thorough how-to. It's gonna become more and more common as more and more people run the "e", and it would be handy to have a sticky for the process.

Man this process sounds familiar :aargh4:

I'm sure. At least it's easy to pull and clean.

I'm wondering if it might be binding issues. The E85 isn't lubricating the plunger as well as pump gas was or something. I say this because I literally could not find a single speck of debris or buildup on the spill valve internals when I pulled it apart last time.


Tapadatass

You have been attacked by the goo. Make sure the inside of the pump isn't sticky.

Pump should be clean. I just pulled it two days ago and it was nearly spotless.


Tapadatass

Maybe try adding MMO in there and see if it keeps it from sticking?

I could do that. I have some in the car and I have to fill up today.


Tapadatass

Here's an MSF Top Tip for you:

If your spill valve is sticking and you get pissed off at it, whacking it with a small Mag Light will get it unstuck.


Tapadatass

When it's sticking, do you hear any noises? 2 locals here, who've been mixing like 3+ gallons e have had issues with their pumps, and both times solenoids seemed to be stuck.... but even more, there was a loud ticking noise coming from the hpfp. Sounded bad, like a stuck cdfp piston banging the cam or something.

I've never had that noise happen. It usually quiets the pump down, considerably, when the solenoid sticks. Sounds like they may have something else going on :/

It sounded like a seized pump piston. Just wondering if you guys have ever had anything like that happen lol.

When it wasn't working and I smacked it, I could hear when it started working. It made an intermittent clicking noise; higher and quieter than the normal HPFP noise.


Tapadatass

anybody reporting issues with running mixes of corn? like E25-35 mix.

I am very afraid to mention anything due to my past fueling issues but I am on about 10 tanks of mix without pump issues.

RV/sensor/wiring yes but no pump issues lol

BTW just last week my shit started cutting out again..pulled sensor connector, sprayed with MAF cleaner, mashed the female pins together, re-installed and all was well....real annoying....

holy fuck that is horrible....ok so is it just me or is anyone else worried about an injector getting stuck open?

I was running a few gallons for a long time back when I was chasing KR. Went back to regular gas for about 10k, now back on a 30% mix for the last 5k

Like Daniel said, it cleans up real well with gasoline.... so IMO, mixes should be safe.

I'm a bit worried to be honest. The only consolation I have is that the injectors should be more resistant than normal port injection injectors to sticking, due to the high pressures involved. The gunk was very soft, and could be easily wiped up with a finger.


Tapadatass

seems someone on here has already hydrolocked a motor due to a stuck injector...can't remember where I saw it.

anyway....perhaps a good cleaning method could be to periodically fill up with 93 since it dissolves the gunk in the pump.

so when you pull the Spillvalve for inspection and see gunk, run a tank of 93 through and then go back to E.

seems like simple insurance.

I don't think anyone running a mix should have any trouble however I'll pull my valve after a few more tanks full to see if anything is going on.

back when I replaced my CPE pump with about 5K miles of E-mix there was absolutely no residue on the valve.

Hmm... Not a bad idea. I'll hate being slow for that tank though.

I'm heading to St. Louis this weekend, and I'll pull the pump when I get back and see how dirty it is.

hahaha go 50% then.

I can't handle going back to 93, so eff that, hahaha.

Calvin from Cobb is the one who nuked a rod due to an injector failing. It just so happened to be after he switched back to 93 from running E85...I think that post is on the second page of my thread.

That post scared me more than any other horror story I've heard about this platform, lol. Since running E85, I've switched back and forth a few times, so I don't worry about these things any more.

Are there any differences between MS6, GenJuan MS3, and GenPu MS3 injectors? I'm going to look into getting a second set of injectors and swap them with my original injectors, then send off my injectors to have them cleaned and checked.

Probably the wrong thread to ask.... but any idea where my ITFP SST is? Does bozo have it now?

roger that...so what you are saying....and just like any other substance that can be abused...once your car is on E85 you can't go back without possibly suffering severe withdrawal such as calvin's did.

I like to believe I have it under control...I mean I started out with E28 and that was good but really I am only going as far as E35... no really... well maybe E47ish but that's it.....

I see all the experts are looking in here.. What is the bird chirping noise from my hpfp? I am getting more (and longer duration) after my e mix. It happens only at cold start .. I just revved it lil when it was cold and the induced the noise as well. I know I heard very lil of this noise with pump gas but now the noise sticks around for a longer time sometimes.... is this normal?

By your description of the noise it might be what I heard today from my spill valve.

With the car idling and the HPFP chirping, disconnect the electrical connector from the spill valve. If the noise goes away, you should pull the valve and see if there is debris on it.

I never had it myself. I think it was with @glorifiedbozo last I heard.


Tapadatass

Si senoir, I should be sending it back on Monday as long as that's not an issue.

Edit: and any post with E85 is not the wrong place to ask if I have it, I think I am subscrided to most of them

Hahaha, exactly what i hoped for.

Monday is fine. Any day next week is fine. I'll pm you my address just to make sure you have it.

Yes. There are some differences...

username speed6 killah showed me 2 injectors @ one time, and I believe the gen2 has 2 holes in the inector vs. one (in the gen one).

I believe there is a pic on here somewhere and will post it when I find it.

Interesting... @SPEED6 KILLAH, are the resistances the same? If so, going to GenPu injectors might be a minor upgrade for a better spray pattern.


Tapadatass

I have this chirp also.

It has to be related to e85 use, given I never had it before running a mix.

Is there a safe lubricant to run in the fueling system, and if so, do you guys have opinions on how much to run?

I put in Marvel Mystery Oil in last night when I filled up. The bottle says 4oz per 10 gallons.

I had absolutely no spill valve issues last night after filling up or this morning. It's way too soon to tell how the oil has affected the valve yet; I'll keep updating as I go.


Tapadatass

There's no difference in injectors.

I pulled my injectors off a 2007 ms6 (which is pretty much as old as they get), and snapped a pic to show they were the same:

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...torcloseup.jpg

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...orcloseup2.jpg


It has that same dimple as the newer ones.

Hmm.

I distinctly remember the one injector having only one hole.

Lemme dig up the pic.

@djuosnteisn

Here is the post I was referring to.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...tml#post909876

I see you posted that pic in the other thread also.

I was going from memory, and that the part #'s were different between model years.

My apologies for any confusion.

There's 2 holes in that pic, look closely:

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/v.../IMG951613.jpg


The dimple is on the right of the normal hole, at 3 o'clock.

Ok Dustin...

I apologize for the confusion.

Please see my post above.

The injector in that thread still has two ports.

EDIT: slow typing on my iPhone owns me. See you guys already figured it out.

Tapadatass

Haha, not a big deal. I just like to stop conspiracy theories before they start.

What tool do you use to remove the spill valve? Before looking at it I went and bought a 32mm socket but the plug to the connector is in the way. I think it needs a crowsfoot wrench.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...ml#post1092939

hyperlink to post concerning removal^

Personally I've always used a cresent wrench

yeah that's what I am going to do. thanks

took the spill valve off. Didn't want to take the parts from it out to check since everything looked clean.. I guess my car will keep chugging E85 till I see something is wrong... Just need to figure out if I should go 100% or stick with 50%

I bought a 32mm combination wrench from Sears for ~$25. Works great.

Sears: Online department store featuring appliances, tools, fitness equipment and more


Here's the link to my new thread on removing and partially disassembling the spill valve:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...0/#post1123093

I am going to try 1.07 lambda at <3500RPM and <0.56 load for fuel economy. I got an average of 22 MPG on the highway on my trip to St. Louis for the NATOR MO meat on Saturday.

I'm now targeting 0.81 lambda at WOT, by the way.

If anyone is curious that's 15.729 gas AFR and 10.449 on e85.

If only we had straight gas and perfect E85 ;) But yes, 15.7 targeted in ATR.

I noticed this morning that even with all my fuel tables targeting 1.07 lambda at low loads, the ECU was still targeting 1.00 lambda when idle at stop lights. I wonder if it has something to do with the clutch tables...


Tapadatass

I noticed this too, but I doubt it has anything to do with the clutch tables, as they appear to be a ratio. There is probably another table or two Cobb has to unlock.

Yeah, this is what I was alluding to when I didn't want to switch all of the tables to the desired E85 AFR. The ecu still seems to want that 14.68 no matter what. I think we have a LOT of closed loop tables to be released for our use. Fueling and timing for sure, and probably others that control other closed loop functions.

Are you guys trying to maximize gas mileage or something?

IMO, maximizing the timing in the PT / cruise load regions will probably net a better increase in gas mileage than simply leaning out the AFR. Has anyone tried to find MBT in the part throttle regions?

Probably need to steady state load the car via dyno for that.

Surprisingly, based on the prior research I've found on the internet, E85 provides the best fuel economy on lower timing advance than pump gas. The flame speed at lambda in the 1.0-1.1 range is much higher than with regular petrol:

Information Bridge: DOE Scientific and Technical Information - Sponsored by OSTI

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...rnvelocity.jpg

Spark Advance vs. Fuel Efficiency & Gasoline vs. E85

I have already done some timing limiting, but I haven't had the time lately to do any solid comparison testing.

Exactly.

@phate, do you think this is something we could do at A-spec on Saturday?

Good info. So you did pull timing across the board in the PT area? Considering the e has nearly twice as fast a flame speed, i seriously doubt you'd want to be running the super advanced factory timing table.

Maybe pull like 6 degrees or something, and just see if it makes a difference over a couple tanks of gas.

I'll have to look at my tune and get back to you on what values I'm actually running.


Tapadatass

Sort of. It seems we don't have much control over the PT closed loop timing. I have been doing some testing with this in my car, and it is still running more than 20° over what I'm commanding, and what is in the Max A/B ignition tables. The car does whatever it feels like.

This is the best way to do it.

Yes, the dynojet we are using is pretty awesome. We can load the car and hold rpms if you want to. I think this will be EXTREMELY time consuming, and something we may want to try later on. We need to figure out how exactly we would quantify the results, and how we would actually go about testing it. We know the fuel injection amount/injector pulsewidth are not accurate, so we can't rely on them for any sort of efficiency calculations. I think if we don't come up with a serious plan, it'll be a lot of cash wasted. I could probably spend days on a dyno doing this, lol.

Tried that. I'm commanding like 20° in my driving range, but the car still runs 40°++. It's frustrating, and a little scary.

i wouldent do any testing till cobb releases the rest of the fuel tables. all in do time.........