E85 Tax

[JLee1469]

Coalition for E85

The benefit of cheaper gas is about to be eliminated.

[MSFer87]

The government has been on a fucking roll lately.

Took about 45 seconds to send a pretyped letter. I suggest we all support this. These fucks really want us to depend on petrol that much more?

[K7addict]

Letter sent and Facebook'd. I have an E85 station about 3/4 mile from my house and enjoy the 3gallon mix. The thought of more increases is pitiful.

Via The Thinking Pot

[SpeedSixxx]

are they fucking serious... holy shit .

next time if ever I have the chance to punch a govt dick in the face i def will/

[JMEngineer]

The "E85 Tax" title is pretty misleading... There is no new tax - just the end of a subsidy that we've all been paying for with tax dollars.

The only reason that subsidy passed in the first place was because of heavy lobbying and advertising campaigns (FILLED with flawed studies and misleading information) led by the people who make money off E85.
E85 is NOT a feasible large-scale replacement for gasoline and looking at the big picture it is NOT good for our economy.



Personally, I'm looking into E85 for my MS6 and would love to have the government pay for a big chunk of it... but I've seen the facts and I know that this subsidy is not something our government should be supporting.




I used the links to send this modified letter:

I am writing to ask you NOT to support E85, America’s most heavily subsidized alternative fuel.

E85 could be an unintended casualty of the upcoming expiration of the current tax subsidy for ethanol. That would be awesome because E85 is not a feasible large-scale alternative to gasoline.

The national ethanol market is mature and will be only marginally impacted by the end of the current credit in 2011. However, sales of E85 will dramatically decline, as E85 requires the current $0.38 per gallon incentive to allow motorists to achieve a competitive price on a Gasoline Gallon Equivalency to regular unleaded gasoline. This will save the government lots of money that could be better used for many other things in these tough economic times.

Again, I ask that you do NOT support the inclusion of E85 in the Alternative Fuel Credit in the tax code, as well as the extension of that credit beyond 2011.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[JMEngineer]

I don't think you guys have anything to worry about. The original subsidy made huge profits for these organizations which they have been using to continue lobbying for extensions - and as we all know, money and lobbying means far more than what is really good for our country

[SpeedSixxx]

I'd like to know and understand why e85 is not good for our economy in the long run?

who eats corn?...

turn it into fuel please...

hows it bad?

[silvapain]

I don't use E85 to save money.


Tapadatass

[theschrum]

Letter sent. That is absolutely ridiculous. I hate paying Haji's for fuel.

[forcedinduktion]

Im so shocked!

[MicaBlackMS6]

Originally Posted by SpeedSixxx I'd like to know and understand why e85 is not good for our economy in the long run? who eats corn?... turn it into fuel please... hows it bad?

Because it takes the same, or more, energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than is in an actual gallon of EtOH. Also, it takes over 100 gallons of fresh water to make 1 gallon of EtOH. E85 is feasible in countries like Brazil because they use sugar cane to make it. There is absolutely no reason for tax payers to be subsidizing the entire midwest farm economy. All this does is raise the price of food commodities (corn starch) while superficially keeping the price of E85 low. IIRC, if every single corn cob in the US was used to make E85, we would reduce our dependence on foreign oil by 30%. If we wanted to be energy independent, we would open up drilling in ANWR (if you bring up a green peace argument, I suggest you actually research what ANWR is, where they are planning to drill, and where the caribou actually live) and start converting our infrastructure to natural gas (we have enough in the US to be energy independent for the next 100 years, which accounts for the increase in demand).

[DevilsOwn]

Yea they need to get rid of this subisty. I don't run e85 i dont' want my tax money to make it cheaper for someone else to. Our goverment is going broke they need to spend my tax money and get itself out of debit. If someone wants to run E85 they should pay the full price. But all the E85 guys know if it goes up to being more than regular gas they will loose enought sales they will pull it from the pump. The shelf live of E85 is so small its only going to make more issues if the pumps loose even 1/4 of the business.

[tddvrrn]

Originally Posted by theschrum Letter sent. That is absolutely ridiculous. I hate paying Haji's for fuel.

look, this is poor research. fuel ethanol in the u.s. comes from corn, the production of which gets huge subsidies and uses IMMENSE AMOUNTS OF OIL FROM THE WORLD MARKET. so ethanol does nothing to ween us off foreign oil.

in fact, i'm willing to bet that inefficiencies in the production and distribution of corn and ethanol actually means that using ethanol to power vehicles increases fossil fuel usage.

so yeah, fuck that. no more subsidies for an inefficient fuel source that does nothing to help any of our problems. i like that. we need to get shit from our tax dollars (or reduction thereof with subsidies), not funnel it into shit that doesn't actually do anything. what the fuck happened to all you 'fuck big govt, we need to reduce spending, blah blah blah...' peeps?

now, for those of you just straight up bummed because e85 rocks for tuning and will cost more.. that is an honest reason to be bummed and you have my sympathy...

[theschrum]

Originally Posted by tddvrrn look, this is poor research. fuel ethanol in the u.s. comes from corn, the production of which gets huge subsidies and uses IMMENSE AMOUNTS OF OIL FROM THE WORLD MARKET. so ethanol does nothing to ween us off foreign oil. in fact, i'm willing to bet that inefficiencies in the production and distribution of corn and ethanol actually means that using ethanol to power vehicles increases fossil fuel usage.

"American-made, renewable ethanol directly displaces crude oil we would need to import, offering our country critically needed independence and security from foreign sources of energy.

Current U.S. ethanol production capacity of nearly 13 billion gallons per year can reduce gasoline imports by more than one-third and effectively extends gasoline supplies at a time when refining capacity is at its maximum.

Ethanol is key to reducing our country's trade deficit in crude oil, a figure that has been steadily increasing: $27 billion in 1987 up to $100 billion in 2002. The U.S. Commerce Department estimates that each $1 billion of trade deficit costs the U.S. 19,100 jobs.

Energy Independence Facts:

The U.S. imports about two-thirds of its oil, and some experts predict our dependence upon foreign crude could climb to 70% in the years to come.
For every barrel of ethanol produced (1 barrel = 42 gallons), 1.2 barrels of petroleum are displaced at the refinery. (Information Resources Inc.)
In addition to importing record amounts of oil, the U.S. has also been importing record amounts of finished gasoline: 37 million gallons per day. (Energy Information Administration)
U.S. fuel consumption increased from 12 billion gallons per year in 1970, to 160 billion gallons in 2002. (Federal Highway Administration)"

source: American Coalition for Ethanol : Home

[rfinkle2]

It is buried in Phate's thread, but Nataphen asked that we sign the form you linked to and I received this reply today. Thought you might like to read it.

Dear Mr. Finkle:



Thank you for contacting me to express your support for maintaining the tax credit to support ethanol blend fuels. Your opinion is very important to me, and I appreciate the opportunity to respond to you on this critical issue.



I share your interest in creating jobs and strengthening our economy and national security by ending our dependence on foreign oil and encouraging the fuels of the future. However, I have serious concerns about continuing corn ethanol subsidies and protective tariffs when the fuel is of dubious environmental benefit and may be contributing to skyrocketing corn prices are hurting the most vulnerable communities throughout the world.



While I did join more than 70 of my colleagues in voting for the Feinstein Amendment to end corn ethanol subsidies, I support the development of next generation biofuels. Next generation biofuels like cellulosic ethanol may be critical to our future energy strategy, not disrupt food markets, and have improved environmental outcomes over existing biofuels. Although we disagree about corn ethanol incentives, I share your commitment to the economic and national security imperative of moving beyond foreign oil.



Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. Please do not hesitate to contact me if I can be of further assistance. I invite you to visit my website (Robert Menendez - US Senator for New Jersey: Home) to learn more about how I am standing up for New Jersey families in the United States Senate.

[kmac]

Who cares 100oct is better anyway and using a crop as a fuel source is fucking retarded. It can be wiped out in an ecological change, natural disaster , bugs , vermin, etc. In my eyes the only other source of fuel viable is hydrogen .

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by kmac Who cares 100oct is better anyway and using a crop as a fuel source is fucking retarded. It can be wiped out in an ecological change, natural disaster , bugs , vermin, etc. In my eyes the only other source of fuel viable is hydrogen .

They are working on hydrogen as a mainstream fuel (as you know), but hydrogen is silly volatile.

[DevilsOwn]

2nd gen E will solve many current issues. I think it will be a good thing for everyone. E85 will not go away. Its just going to be more expensive than gas and well most racers will spend the extra cause its still cheaper than 100 octane. But how many green people will still buy it knowing its better for the environment?

[tddvrrn]

Originally Posted by theschrum "American-made, renewable ethanol directly displaces crude oil we would need to import, offering our country critically needed independence and security from foreign sources of energy. Current U.S. ethanol production capacity of nearly 13 billion gallons per year can reduce gasoline imports by more than one-third and effectively extends gasoline supplies at a time when refining capacity is at its maximum. Ethanol is key to reducing our country's trade deficit in crude oil, a figure that has been steadily increasing: $27 billion in 1987 up to $100 billion in 2002. The U.S. Commerce Department estimates that each $1 billion of trade deficit costs the U.S. 19,100 jobs. Energy Independence Facts: The U.S. imports about two-thirds of its oil, and some experts predict our dependence upon foreign crude could climb to 70% in the years to come. For every barrel of ethanol produced (1 barrel = 42 gallons), 1.2 barrels of petroleum are displaced at the refinery. (Information Resources Inc.) In addition to importing record amounts of oil, the U.S. has also been importing record amounts of finished gasoline: 37 million gallons per day. (Energy Information Administration) U.S. fuel consumption increased from 12 billion gallons per year in 1970, to 160 billion gallons in 2002. (Federal Highway Administration)" source: American Coalition for Ethanol : Home

ok fact boy. you missed the whole point of my thread.
how much petroleum does it take to produce 1 gallon of ethanol? i am too lazy to research that. i have a feeling it may be upwards of 1 gallon. if it is, do i have to spell it out for you? if it costs a gallon to make a gallon, guess what? there ain't shit displaced! instead of burning foreign oil in our cars, we burn it in our tractors, raising corn to produce fuel to burn in our cars. that's retarded.

if it turns out that we get a gallon of ethanol for less than a gallon of petroleum, then i'll jump on the ethanol-as-savior bandwagon. but until you provide respectable proof, i have my doubts...

oh, and it has to be calculations for corn ethanol, not sugar cane ethanol.

edit: i got all worked up typing that, so i did some research. it looks like, only looking at fuel produced and not factoring food products, there is approx 5% increase in the volume of ethanol produced relative to the volume of oil used. so it looks like there is a net gain, but a small one. i guess i am now willing to be more open minded about ethanol as a possible real player in the energy markets.
i still think the subsidy is dumb, just as is the subsidy for petroleum companies. free market, anyone?

[JMEngineer]

You didn't finish your calculation...

If one liter of gasoline turns into 1.05L of E85

Since gasoline contains 34.2MJ/L and E85 only contains 25.65MJ/L

We end up with only 79% of the energy we started with!



And that's a conservative calculation since I used gasoline and E85. Crude oil contains 37MJ/L and Ethanol only contains 24MJ/L which calculates out to 68% efficiency.

[GoSpeed3Go]

using our tax money to make something cheaper suks but we pay for even dumber more useless shit everyday in this country. even e85 turns out to be 30 or 40 cents more a gallon ill still buy it. because its better than tuning on shitty 91 octane and a hell of alot cheaper than over 60 bucks for a 5gallon barrel of race gas.

[theschrum]

Originally Posted by tddvrrn ok fact boy. you missed the whole point of my thread. how much petroleum does it take to produce 1 gallon of ethanol? i am too lazy to research that. i have a feeling it may be upwards of 1 gallon. if it is, do i have to spell it out for you? if it costs a gallon to make a gallon, guess what? there ain't shit displaced! instead of burning foreign oil in our cars, we burn it in our tractors, raising corn to produce fuel to burn in our cars. that's retarded. if it turns out that we get a gallon of ethanol for less than a gallon of petroleum, then i'll jump on the ethanol-as-savior bandwagon. but until you provide respectable proof, i have my doubts... oh, and it has to be calculations for corn ethanol, not sugar cane ethanol. edit: i got all worked up typing that, so i did some research. it looks like, only looking at fuel produced and not factoring food products, there is approx 5% increase in the volume of ethanol produced relative to the volume of oil used. so it looks like there is a net gain, but a small one. i guess i am now willing to be more open minded about ethanol as a possible real player in the energy markets. i still think the subsidy is dumb, just as is the subsidy for petroleum companies. free market, anyone?

Wow, this makes your original post make much more sense to me. Thanks for clarifying. I thought you were just posting to destroy hopes and dreams, but you have facts that I was unaware of. I am the ignorant one here.

[tddvrrn]

Originally Posted by theschrum Wow, this makes your original post make much more sense to me. Thanks for clarifying. I thought you were just posting to destroy hopes and dreams, but you have facts that I was unaware of. I am the ignorant one here.

that was actually quite funny!
my point was that your post listed all kinds of facts, but not the facts that my original post was calling for, namely: is ethanol a truly valid way to replace oil? will it produce more energy than is put in?

that was the point of my first post, but your reply, despite all its 'facts', never listed any specific numbers or research in this area, just general statements about the greatness of ethanol. hardly objective evidence to make an informed decision about the proper role of ethanol in our economy and its potential as a true replacement for gasoline. that's what i was getting at..

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by kmac Who cares 100oct is better anyway and using a crop as a fuel source is fucking retarded. It can be wiped out in an ecological change, natural disaster , bugs , vermin, etc. In my eyes the only other source of fuel viable is hydrogen .

hydro sounds good.

[emag remrofni]

No corn stations by my house. NCE

[Mizzle]

Why corn?
Because it keeps rich farmers rich.

Wheat grass doesn't fuck our ground soil like corn does nor is it such an immense waste of space... yet "it's too expensive to convert the production facilities over."
- Right.

People are dying of hunger in our country as well as worldwide, but we're burning food as fuel so we can pretend it's better that way.

We need to stop subsidizing the agricultural industry to keep large-scale farmers rich as fuck and if a small farmer can't stay competitive without subsidies, he needs to find another job.

[kmac]

Aww, what's the matter @Bucker I hurt your feelings ? sorry if the truth hurts , but deal with it. Using crops as fuel is the most dumb thing u can do . It doesn't possess as many btu's as gas fuel, It's just cheaper that's all, and It's inconsistent levels at the pump. I almost forgot , on a serious note merry xmas.

[rfinkle2]

I totally appreciate all of the points above, but regardless of whatever the next fuel source will be, it will be inefficient compared to gasoline because big $ has been invested in the production, exploration and transportation of gasoline.

In my opinion, it will be really hard to get an accurate comparison of the true costs of any new technology (environmental, monetary or otherwise).

The oil industry has had so long to streamline, as well as corrupt.

LOL @kmac and @Bucker.

Bucker loves e85 because it gives his car a case of the fast.

[kmac]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I totally appreciate all of the points above, but regardless of whatever the next fuel source will be, it will be inefficient compared to gasoline because big $ has been invested in the production, exploration and transportation of gasoline. In my opinion, it will be really hard to get an accurate comparison of the true costs of any new technology (environmental, monetary or otherwise). The oil industry has had so long to streamline, as well as corrupt. LOL @kmac and @Bucker. Bucker loves e85 because it gives his car a case of the fast.

I know I'm just busting his balls.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by kmac I know I'm just busting his balls.

LOL. I'm just sayin' that Bucker runs catless iirc, so his passion for e85 isn't because he is overly concerned for the environment. LOL.

[kritz]

Has anyone seen "Moonshiners" I think I'm going to set up a still in the backyard and start making some fuel.

Moonshiners: Moonshiners Sneak Peek : Video : Discovery Channel

[Enki]

Kritz: you can do that legally you know. Just need the relevant permits.

Also, gasoline will be the fuel of the future. Science already has strains of algae which produce hydrocarbons available.

On the e-front, switch-grass is a much better candidate for ethanol production as it will grow where regular crops won't. It also produces much more e per acre than corn ever could.

[Mizzle]

You have to denature it, but yes it's totally legal to brew your own ethanol.

[BigjohnB20]

Originally Posted by kritz Has anyone seen "Moonshiners" I think I'm going to set up a still in the backyard and start making some fuel. Moonshiners: Moonshiners Sneak Peek : Video : Discovery Channel

That show is fucking funny. I was watching one the other day. The actual show took place over the course of like 4 days I think. The guy was wearing the same overalls, no shirt for the entire episode. And his partner just looks hammered the whole time and can barely even make sentences.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by BigjohnB20 That show is fucking funny. I was watching one the other day. The actual show took place over the course of like 4 days I think. The guy was wearing the same overalls, no shirt for the entire episode. And his partner just looks hammered the whole time and can barely even make sentences.

So what makes you think it was taped over 4 days?

[kritz]

Yup and he is the Fire Chief!

[Mizzle]

I emailed these peoples a wtf message about the subsidy and received:

We appreciate your passion around this issue. It's a very important one. The federal government supports these fuels because we need to re-establish our energy industry in America. Tossing out 300 billion dollars every year for imported oil is killing our economy, so investment into homegrown jobs and fuels is penciling out. The government investment of 6 billion into ethanol has resulted in 8.4 billion dollars in Federal tax revenues and 7.5 billion dollars in local and State tax revenue. So the investment is paying back. The 6 billion tax credit goes away Jan 1, so its all gravy for our government from here. The problem is 2,500 American small businesses like Propel have invested in the fueling infrastructure that's necessary to grow this industry. With the tax credit going away – E85 will be less affordable for drivers, so sales will drop. The E85 industry still needs time to scale and compete with major oil (who has a 50 year head start and 30 billion in annual subsidies that continue after Jan 1) – same case for solar, propane & electric. Ethanol is not perfect, no energy source is, but it's better than oil. Ethanol is improving from the standpoint of energy balance, carbon reductions, water use and sustainability – and American farmers continue to meet demands for food, animal feed, exports and the production of fuel. We now make more homegrown fuel than we import from Saudi Arabia, so that’s a good start. Modern production facilities are far from the inefficient plants of 30 years ago. And cellulosic ethanol provides a good outlook for the future. We realize that the world cannot be changed overnight. However, we recognize that drivers can – right now, today – make small gestures that over time will lead to a better world. Here are some studies regarding ethanol that combat some of the misleading statements made by uninformed media (all PDFs). Informa Economics – Analysis Of Corn, Commodity, And Consumer Food Prices http://renewablefuelsassociation.cma...t/hyutydydu/h/ Lifecycle Analysis of Ethanol - Yale University's http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmg...ornEthanol.pdf Journal of Industrial Ecology http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmg...ornEthanol.pdf USDA – Energy Balance for the Corn-Ethanol Industry http://www.usda.gov/oce/reports/ener...June_final.pdf USDA Report – A Revised and Expanded Food Dollar Series: A Better Understanding of Our Food Costs A Revised and Expanded Food Dollar Series: A Better Understanding of Our Food Costs Thanks again for your email. We certainly appreciate your feedback. Nicole -- Nicole Mabley Customer Service Propel Fuels, Inc. O: 1.800.871.0773 Ext. 101 F: 1.800.871.0773

My take-away: Why is anyone getting subsidies? Stop that shit.

[phate]

'Tis a sad day for the corn burners:

Congress ends corn ethanol subsidy | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com

We'll miss you, subsidy, but your loss won't deter us.

[Enki]

There is still hope for cheap e:

...ended a tariff on imported Brazilian ethanol.

[jdeves]

Originally Posted by phate 'Tis a sad day for the corn burners: Congress ends corn ethanol subsidy | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com We'll miss you, subsidy, but your loss won't deter us.

Holy crap I had no idea this was happening. I really hope we don't lose the e85 option, I just finished my BT build and I need that e85!!!