Etipp is the guy with the scoring, so he's probably familiar with it already. Unless I'm misreading davychronic is talking about his CS internals with the 150 miles, he hasn't installed the IE yet so he doesn't need to pull them.

Yea im going on an 1800 mile round trip road trip in a couple weeks and I cant have issues so im waiting til i get back.

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Yeah I'm a bit burnt out from work so everything in my brain right now is applesauce. My bad on getting literally everything wrong.

Looking at the IE website (FAQ, Will this fit my car), it looks like some of the VWs have Belt Drive pumps.
?
Would that separate the pump from the hot engine oil that causes the black death problems? Can this pump be retrofit to our cars?
(sorry if someone else thought of this and I missed that post.)

They would still need to lubricate their pump with...
...you guessed it, hot engine oil.

I have not updated this thread in a long time. Nothing has changed since day one. I have not touched the pump since installing the I.E. Internals. I have traveled 7,000 miles on 100% corn without issue and they are still doing great. I still get a nice constant fuel pressure thought out my entire 4 gear logs.

I am planning on getting some autotechs and making sure Black Death is still an issue as fuel design does change. I will install them in a separate pump and see what happens.


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any way you could maybe possibly get me so dimensions on that extra seal they add when you get the pump out @littleloogy; ?

No, I refuse to take the pump apart. I have a fear of ruining the seal.


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Awww i want to attempt to reproduce said seal for anyone that doesnt want an overpriced pump when we only want the seal. I sent the one i ordered back, may have to order it again.

"MAKE THE SAID SEAL!!" says the mazda gods

These internals are a full length 9.8mm. Unlike Autotechs, CS, and KMD the shaft on this kit does not taper to the factory Shaft size. So even if I was able to get the sizes for you, no one would benefit.

Furthermore, you would not be able to in bed any seals into our factory retaining nut because our retaining nuts are not designed that way. You would have to make a custom retaining nut and inert the seal you wish to make.


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sounds like u got it all figured out!!! now take my money lol

Its been awhile since ive had my pump apart, maybe its time to inspect it a little and see what i could get to work since my car is in pieces right now anyways. All we need is a seal like they have to keep oil and ethanol from mixing. I forgot about the retainer being different.

Look at the 2.0t fuel pump. (Audi and VW use it) They come standard with a seal.


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That makes me wonder after looking at it if we can buy the retainer nut from vw. I need moar time to do more research

So there is quite a bit of space inside the retaining nut between where the piston tapers and the top of the nut, possibly enough space that a seal could fit but im not sure how you could get the seal to stay stationary and stop oil from seeping up the piston. I need an engineer to design a new retaining nut that could hold the seal in place. Orrr if the vw retaining nut incorporates a factory seal then i wonder if the vw oem piston diameter is the same as ours and maybe a retrofit could work.

Please post hardware modifications here http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...d.php?t=164812

This thread is mainly for testing I.E. FP Internals.


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I am now just seeing this :smileysex5:

Im tempted to buy a pump from them.

Random question for you @littleloogy; did you assemble the pump or did you buy the pump already assembled from them? I know you mentioned not wanting to take the pump apart.

I rebuilt my pump with the internal kit. I broke the pump in on gas (1-tank) then made the switch to Full E85. I have not touched the pump since I installed these. Damn, I did not realize it's been like 8 months without having to do pump maintenance.

@littleloogy;... did u coat the internals in SL-1 before install>?

Nope, Si-1 was NOT used. [emoji6]

damn i might need these then

Told you.

It was reported in my build thread that someone went through 2 sets of these because of failure... not sure of the details.

Could have been user installation error, could have been break-in error, or just plain bad luck. My experience was trouble free.

@Etipp98; care to elaborate on your IE Internal failures?

First set had "tolerance issues", they sent me a new set and would not hold pressure under load. I used redline in the pump,and also the included grease separately. Tried set in a totally different pump and had the same issues. There is also NO Break in procedure Required as they do that before they ship them out. I might try them again when i get the car back together but so far they have been a paperweight.

no i told u... i could of swore i thought someone had failed with these... just didnt remember who, now it makes sense.

The grease that was included is assembly lube. It is supposed to be used during pump assembly, not SI-1. No where in this thread did anyone mention using the additive. Did you follow the direction included in the kit? @Etipp98;?

As I stated, the grease WAS used on its own, but did not mention it was used first. When that did not work, I tried oil and redline as a second shot.

Whats the update with the testing behind these? Getting real curious about 100% e. Currently running a 30% mix, switching off rotella next oil change.

Still working. No issues. I'll be taking them apart when I hit 10,000 miles. Should be soon,


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What are your intervals for oil changes? Can wait to see what it looks like. I have high hopes for this even with the other 2 pumps that failed.

I change my oil between three and five thousand mile intervals depending on how hard I drive my car. @Enki; I believe pushed his oci to 7,000 miles if I remember right.




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8k and Blackstone told me to extend. That would have put me at changing the oil once a year.

I've been doing 7k ish on RP for the past few. I usually intend on changing it at 5k but..lazy.

Do a sample and see what Blackstone says. $25 is cheap for peace of mind.

It's actually $28 now. They recently had to increase it a couple of bucks.

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Still worth it.

Agree 100%... I even send in my gear oil to them. Invaluable information. Only thing I don't like about them honestly is lately the turnaround times have gotten pretty bad. Like it'll take between 3 and 4 weeks from when I send them a sample to when I get a result.

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Supply and demand; probably why the price has gone up.

I stopped sending samples to Blackstone.

I changed the oil in my ms3 and cx-5 at the same time and stupidly didn't mark the samples immediately. Of course i lost track of which we which. So I sent them a letter with both samples telling them all of the info about both sample including that they were different cars and different oil weights just that I didn't know which was which


I got a response on both samples telling me they looked great for 0w-20.

I run 10w-30 in the speed.

Proceed as you wish.

Edit @phate; I know you use them too and wanted to make sure you see this.

I don't know, I put on my form 10-40 on accident. And the report came back stating that it tested more like 5w30. I'll post it
When I get home from work.


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I test sample my Pu and the Mustang for the Mrs. I've written a couple of questions or made notes of mods regarding both, and sometimes they provide feedback other times they dont. So I think it depends on the genius in charge of customer relations/keyboard duty that day.

I have a good feeling that we're going to run 100% E-85 (safely) in our platforms really soon. :)

My concern was more that the person testing had 10w-30 and said it looked great for 0w-20. If they misunderstood my letter I would have expected a response along the lines of what the hell is going on.

Been doing it for over a year now...

Well that's good to know!

Same. Nothing new here.

Lol you'd know if you read this and the other threads.

Yeah no kidding. :/

@Enki; can you or someone please post up a picture of your cam follower?


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Preferably inside the bucket? From the fuel pump.


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Uh oh.

Yeah... You can say that again.


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Noticing excessive wear?

Sombitch I hope your cam is okay. It's a known issue for the Audi 2.0t. I saw some guys total their A4 on Audizine because a new cam and labor exceeded the value of the car. Of course our parts and labor are substantially less. They have to change their follower every 30k give or take.

I believe our HPFP internals are interchangeable, no? I think they finally got a reinforced cam follower.

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Pretty easy request considering my follower is in a little plastic baggie on the shelf.

If the face pictures are too shitty to tell, I'll go out and take more. Kind of difficult because the camera won't focus on the mirror like finish it has.

Fuuuuucccckkk


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Alright lets see it, your internals and spring.

Just shy of 10,000 miles.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01...fa765973ab.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01...f767e70347.jpg
No death on the internals.


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And the follower?

Just kidding.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01...76e1261973.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01...952fb014b4.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01...b839a20471.jpg

But there was no death on the moving parts of the pump.


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Yeah, the follower... It's fucked. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01...9a90efe223.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01...dbe5924ad1.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01...3a0d242f1a.jpg


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Why'd you ask about the follower then?

Edit:
Is that...recessed in the middle?

Yup. Almost 1/16 of an inch.


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Curious as to why shit built up on everything other than the moving parts. Was the extra seal keeping it clean?

In the original post it states that the internals have a nitride coating, death can't stick to it.


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Holy shit...Probably has a lot to do with the extra mass of that piston...I was spinning my autotechs up to 7500 RPM (which is 187.5 cycles per second) and mine looks like the day I got it.

I'd mention that to IE.

I ended up reassembling the internals without cleaning. I will be falling off the E85 wagon for a few tanks to see if the pump will clean itself with petrol. I will order a cam follower and take the pump apart again in a few weeks. Besides, I need to do a proper MAF cal since I put on a FMIC and a catless downpipe.

After I find out of the pump will clean it's self, I will send a report back to IE and see what they say. IE claimed that their internals would not damage cam followers.


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How well did you lube that area when you assembled it? Is there any roughness on that end of the piston?
@Enki;s looks like it has a similar wear pattern is there a noticeable lip on your follower @Enki?

Loog's wear is on the inside of the follower not on the face. It's crushed where the follower meets the piston, not on the cam face. My follower is flat.

But as a result of the center being pushed in did it cause the other side to balloon out? Kind of hard to tell from the picture.

Face looks flat to me like it was excessive wear on the inside, thats why I was asking about the assembly.

Honestly the follower should be full of oil within seconds of starting. The oil doesn't drain out of the follower area, at any rate.

@Easter Bunny; the cam follower is always inserted into the hole and turned with my finger to coat with oil. The piston was not damaged in any way, no burrs or markings.
@Mazdazilla6; the face is not deformed in any way. It looks like it just mushroomed inside the bowl.


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@littleloogy; I imagine you've already contacted IE or are planning on it, but this is definitely something that should be brought to their attention.

So going a step back here, has anyone tested full e on the stock pump? I know it's playing with fire but I'd really like to see if the stock pump can actually resist the deaths.

I'm thinking about getting my autotechs nitrided in the spring. It's a fairly easy process and on something small like these it is pretty cheap. It seems like the IE internals are a proper solution but if we are going to experience follower issues from them then I'd rather try to get my autotechs nitrided instead. If we can figure out if the follower issues is related to these internals or if it's isolated then I might just make the just to IE internals.

I went to E29 on stock pump, with timing being added, airflow went up and I wound up making the same power around 12 PSI. This was years ago, so I could be mistaken, though I am positive boost was below stock levels when all was said and done.

Also, Autotechs already have a DLC type coating which may not be compatible with nitriding. With how the Redline fix is working out, I don't see this as a requirement, really.

Unless, of course, cleaning the pump once a year as preventative maintenance is too much for you.

You would be amazed at how lazy some people are. A friend I tune has seen some HPFP pressure dropping at peak loads to 1506 at the lowest, for about 4-500 rpm, and then it will be fine. I told him to come over and lets clean the pump, running an e mix all this time with rotella (I don't know why he is still using that), and there is probably some sticky there that needs to be cleaned. So he was supposed to come over, and we take it all apart and clean it thoroughly.

That was a month ago, still hasn't cleaned shit. I could understand if cleaning the pump was an all day job. But it's a hour or 2 job at most.

When you're cleaning the pump do you guys fully unbolt the pump or just remove the spill valve and clean that?

I'll have to look into the process for the DLC coating. If it's just a hardening process then it should be able to be nitrided.

I have thought about using S1 but I thought the pump had to be cleaned more often than that.

It's been over a year with one minor hiccup of the pump threatening to fail, so I pulled the spill valve and flushed with Redline and not a peep in the months since. Kind of interested to see what it looks like inside the pump but not too worried about it right now.

IE HPFP Internals For E85
 

It's not really a coating as it is a molecular change to the outer layer of the metal. So I doubt you can mix the two processes, but that is out of my element, no pun intended.


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Someone want to send me a complete stock pump, I'll be happy to try. My pumps have been all parted/NATORed out. I'll send it back after testing is completed? Unless one of you find a cheap pump for me to purchase.


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Its would be nice to clean it once a year because you should not because you have to. If the nitriding (sp) is that effective, someone like @CorkSport; might make a batch of internals with that coating on them.

That would be ideal for them to have a "E85 ready" FP internal kit. Unfortunately I doubt people are not ready to give up their T6 which accelerates death buildup. Even if the death would not stick to the piston, it will stick to everything else that is not coated in the pump and eventually cause a failure, like in the Spill Valve.


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I believe i seen a stock fp for about $100 in the fs section

Fully unbolt it. After the first initial full cleaning, then probably just doing the spill valve every so often would be fine, for peace of mind.

Some guy on failbook was seling a stock pump (not sure if stock internals or none) for $125 I believe. The connector was cracked and CPe wouldn't take it as a core. I can't remember what page it was, I'll try and find it later.

I've got 2. Shoot me an address to ship to.

If the DLC process isn't a coating then it should be able to be nitrided. I just got home so I'll look into it now but if it's just a hardening process then it can easily be reversed and nitrided.


Edit: Okay so after some quick research it seems that DLC is a coating. It adds thickness to the metal unlike nitriding which alters the metal composition at the surface. With that said, I won't be nitriding my autotechs because in order for it to work properly there can't be a surface coating and I don't want to strip the coating because the tolerances are designed with the coating taken into account. When the time comes I'll sell my autotechs and probably pick up a set of IE internals or just run S1.

http://www.northeastcoating.com/products/dlc-coating

Most of my clients that deal with DLC coatings use a PVD process to apply them, so it would not be similar to nitriding a part. @littleloogy; is correct about how nitriding changes a surface's characteristics. The big difference between the two is that applying DLC will add a layer of material to the surface of a part, which may cause clearance issues. I know my lab tests plenty of DLC coated parts that end up being well under one micron thick, so it may not really create issues if you wanted to coat our fuel pump internals.

I would avoid the IE internals for now as they seem to be causing mushrooming on the HPFP follower. Maybe see if Corksport will do it on theirs? Also oil + Redline seems like a good long term solution to me personally.

I sent an email to Pete @ integrated engineering this afternoon. I have not heard back from him.

Went back to petrol, holy fuck balls my pump feels like it's on its last leg. Rattling like it ain't no body's business. It's amazing how quiet E85 operates, even with a damaged follower. Has me baffled as to why.


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Requires more flow, thus less overall pressure is dumped.

Is the cam okay?? Sorry to hear this. I wonder what could be causing the mushrooming?

Probably just the mass of the internals and extra drag from seal area, maybe the spring if it's heavier too.

The kit does not come with a spring, but everything else could be true. You all have to remember, I may have fatigued the cam follower with all my episodes of death testing in the past.


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You forget, I've got ~50k miles of death testing as well (sorta).

Oh hush...


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That's interesting. I've never seen the mazda cam follower in person- the VW one is just flat on the inside. The VW ones wear through from the outside before anything happens to the inside. They are too small diameter and they break through the oil film on the cam and just get torn up, despite being coated. One day I might order a mazda follower and just see if anything can be done to make the tip of our pump any more compatible with it. What sort of rail pressure are you running? Rail pressure pretty much determines the force from the pin to the bucket, and at least, in our application - controls how fast we tear up the buckets. On our big turbo cars we run 150 bar of rail pressure and ya, the buckets don't last forever like that.

On the gunk- I'd be interested to see what temperature your pumps run at. I say that because while E85 use is rare with us, because we're limited by fuel injection pulsewidth- I've never seen that same gunk build up in the pumps, and as you know, it's the same pump internally. I somewhat suspect the mazda application could be running the pump at a hotter temperature just because of its location or similar factor- and this is causing the ethanol to break down in areas where it does not circulate well. The outside of that barrel is only fuel which leaked past the pin inside the cylinder and is being returned to the LPFP inlet side as it comes out. So a good pump, is not flowing much fuel down there.

Perhaps a k type thermocouple stuck to the pump body and ran around to the inside of the vehicle could yield some interesting data- I could probably compare to our application. Maybe something can be done about it if we can understand the real cause.



Cheers,



Peter Blais

Director of Engineering




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Have the temperature measurements of the pump and surrounding area been measured before? I have a calibrated 3 port logger with a 5 second recording interval that I could volunteer.

Nice that they seem interested in finding a solution.

They have not but his understanding of the issue is a bit skewed. It's not the E85 that's breaking down here, but rather, the oil in the presence of alcohol.

@JSmith; Why would death develop in the pump but leave the SV completely clean If it was the fuel alone? Normally the Spill valve is the first thing to go.

Stupid theory: the carbon coating in ATs is changing the molecular properties of E85 and creating sticky death... Ha ha.

A pump for testing the stock internal idea should be here soon. I still need to get a Tappet. I have one more tank of petrol to burn, then I'll be switching the pump and getting back on the sauce.


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