IE HPFP Internals For E85

[Easter Bunny]

Originally Posted by Enki Unless, of course, cleaning the pump once a year as preventative maintenance is too much for you.

Its would be nice to clean it once a year because you should not because you have to. If the nitriding (sp) is that effective, someone like @CorkSport; might make a batch of internals with that coating on them.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny Its would be nice to clean it once a year because you should not because you have to. If the nitriding (sp) is that effective, someone like @CorkSport; might make a batch of internals with that coating on them.

That would be ideal for them to have a "E85 ready" FP internal kit. Unfortunately I doubt people are not ready to give up their T6 which accelerates death buildup. Even if the death would not stick to the piston, it will stick to everything else that is not coated in the pump and eventually cause a failure, like in the Spill Valve.


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[blackms3_71]

I believe i seen a stock fp for about $100 in the fs section

[g00s3y]

Originally Posted by Polish_Eagle When you're cleaning the pump do you guys fully unbolt the pump or just remove the spill valve and clean that?

Fully unbolt it. After the first initial full cleaning, then probably just doing the spill valve every so often would be fine, for peace of mind.

Originally Posted by littleloogy Someone want to send me a complete stock pump, I'll be happy to try. My pumps have been all parted/NATORed out. I'll send it back after testing is completed? Unless one of you find a cheap pump for me to purchase.

Some guy on failbook was seling a stock pump (not sure if stock internals or none) for $125 I believe. The connector was cracked and CPe wouldn't take it as a core. I can't remember what page it was, I'll try and find it later.

[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by littleloogy Someone want to send me a complete stock pump, I'll be happy to try. My pumps have been all parted/NATORed out. I'll send it back after testing is completed? Unless one of you find a cheap pump for me to purchase. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've got 2. Shoot me an address to ship to.

[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by littleloogy It's not really a coating as it is a molecular change to the outer layer of the metal. So I doubt you can mix the two processes, but that is out of my element, no pun intended. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If the DLC process isn't a coating then it should be able to be nitrided. I just got home so I'll look into it now but if it's just a hardening process then it can easily be reversed and nitrided.


Edit: Okay so after some quick research it seems that DLC is a coating. It adds thickness to the metal unlike nitriding which alters the metal composition at the surface. With that said, I won't be nitriding my autotechs because in order for it to work properly there can't be a surface coating and I don't want to strip the coating because the tolerances are designed with the coating taken into account. When the time comes I'll sell my autotechs and probably pick up a set of IE internals or just run S1.

http://www.northeastcoating.com/products/dlc-coating

[biscuit003]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 I'll have to look into the process for the DLC coating. If it's just a hardening process then it should be able to be nitrided. I have thought about using S1 but I thought the pump had to be cleaned more often than that.

Most of my clients that deal with DLC coatings use a PVD process to apply them, so it would not be similar to nitriding a part. @littleloogy; is correct about how nitriding changes a surface's characteristics. The big difference between the two is that applying DLC will add a layer of material to the surface of a part, which may cause clearance issues. I know my lab tests plenty of DLC coated parts that end up being well under one micron thick, so it may not really create issues if you wanted to coat our fuel pump internals.

[Enki]

I would avoid the IE internals for now as they seem to be causing mushrooming on the HPFP follower. Maybe see if Corksport will do it on theirs? Also oil + Redline seems like a good long term solution to me personally.

[littleloogy]

I sent an email to Pete @ integrated engineering this afternoon. I have not heard back from him.

Went back to petrol, holy fuck balls my pump feels like it's on its last leg. Rattling like it ain't no body's business. It's amazing how quiet E85 operates, even with a damaged follower. Has me baffled as to why.


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[Enki]

Requires more flow, thus less overall pressure is dumped.

[ItsNox]

Originally Posted by Enki I would avoid the IE internals for now as they seem to be causing mushrooming on the HPFP follower. Maybe see if Corksport will do it on theirs? Also oil + Redline seems like a good long term solution to me personally.

Originally Posted by littleloogy I sent an email to Pete @ integrated engineering this afternoon. I have not heard back from him.

Is the cam okay?? Sorry to hear this. I wonder what could be causing the mushrooming?

[Enki]

Probably just the mass of the internals and extra drag from seal area, maybe the spring if it's heavier too.

[littleloogy]

The kit does not come with a spring, but everything else could be true. You all have to remember, I may have fatigued the cam follower with all my episodes of death testing in the past.


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[Enki]

You forget, I've got ~50k miles of death testing as well (sorta).

[littleloogy]

Oh hush...


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[littleloogy]

That's interesting. I've never seen the mazda cam follower in person- the VW one is just flat on the inside. The VW ones wear through from the outside before anything happens to the inside. They are too small diameter and they break through the oil film on the cam and just get torn up, despite being coated. One day I might order a mazda follower and just see if anything can be done to make the tip of our pump any more compatible with it. What sort of rail pressure are you running? Rail pressure pretty much determines the force from the pin to the bucket, and at least, in our application - controls how fast we tear up the buckets. On our big turbo cars we run 150 bar of rail pressure and ya, the buckets don't last forever like that.

On the gunk- I'd be interested to see what temperature your pumps run at. I say that because while E85 use is rare with us, because we're limited by fuel injection pulsewidth- I've never seen that same gunk build up in the pumps, and as you know, it's the same pump internally. I somewhat suspect the mazda application could be running the pump at a hotter temperature just because of its location or similar factor- and this is causing the ethanol to break down in areas where it does not circulate well. The outside of that barrel is only fuel which leaked past the pin inside the cylinder and is being returned to the LPFP inlet side as it comes out. So a good pump, is not flowing much fuel down there.

Perhaps a k type thermocouple stuck to the pump body and ran around to the inside of the vehicle could yield some interesting data- I could probably compare to our application. Maybe something can be done about it if we can understand the real cause.



Cheers,



Peter Blais

Director of Engineering




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[JSmith]

Have the temperature measurements of the pump and surrounding area been measured before? I have a calibrated 3 port logger with a 5 second recording interval that I could volunteer.

[Easter Bunny]

Nice that they seem interested in finding a solution.

[Enki]

They have not but his understanding of the issue is a bit skewed. It's not the E85 that's breaking down here, but rather, the oil in the presence of alcohol.

[littleloogy]

@JSmith; Why would death develop in the pump but leave the SV completely clean If it was the fuel alone? Normally the Spill valve is the first thing to go.

Stupid theory: the carbon coating in ATs is changing the molecular properties of E85 and creating sticky death... Ha ha.

A pump for testing the stock internal idea should be here soon. I still need to get a Tappet. I have one more tank of petrol to burn, then I'll be switching the pump and getting back on the sauce.


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[Enki]

Originally Posted by littleloogy @JSmith; Why would death develop in the pump but leave the SV completely clean If it was the fuel alone? Normally the Spill valve is the first thing to go. Stupid theory: the carbon coating in ATs is changing the molecular properties of E85 and creating sticky death... Ha ha. A pump for testing the stock internal idea should be here soon. I still need to get a Tappet. I have one more tank of petrol to burn, then I'll be switching the pump and getting back on the sauce. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's not an issue of coatings either. I bought a spare pump off a blown motor CX7 which was unmodified. The reason it blew was clear to me after taking apart the pump, which had stock internals. Worst case of black death I'd ever seen. So bad, in fact, that the pump came with the part that bolts to the head because it was seized on there.

[JSmith]

Can more data hurt?

Forgive me if this has been determined before, but are we assuming that the black death occurs at shutdown and not while in use?

[Enki]

It happens in use. This too, I've experienced first hand by removing the double seals off the internals (the scraper x ring on the retaining nut) and just idling in the driveway (cold start). After it came up to temp, it failed very, VERY quickly.

By all means, test the stock internals, but expect to be out of fuel on very low boost and expect to see little to no change in death production.

Remember that I tested (and found the cause of) death by boiling fuel and oil in a stove pot which was raw metal. Death also stuck to the coated sample strip I had in the pot as well.

[littleloogy]

Ooo Pretty.

Stock internals along with this will be going in tonight when I get off work. Driving with a stock pump will suck, but I can tune around it. Let's see.
Zero out VVT
Zero boost
Zero Wategate tables
Adjust waste gate preload
& Bam Good to go.



Sent from a Galaxy far, far away...

Special shout out to @Mazdazilla6; for allowing me to play with his pump while he works on his build.


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[Mazdazilla6]

Good luck! Look forward to your results.

[ItsNox]

Originally Posted by littleloogy Ooo Pretty. Stock internals along with this will be going in tonight when I get off work. Driving with a stock pump will suck, but I can tune around it. Let's see. Zero out VVT Zero boost Zero Wategate tables Adjust waste gate preload & Bam Good to go. Sent from a Galaxy far, far away... Special shout out to @Mazdazilla6; for allowing me to play with his pump while he works on his build. Sent from a Galaxy far, far away...

Upgraded cam follower?

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[Enki]

Billet forged.



Nah probably just new. If new factory, then I should probably get one as well as mine is kinda dimpled a bit as well.

[Easter Bunny]

Looks dimpled?

Also are you looking at growing your own corn?

[davychronic]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny Looks dimpled? Also are you looking at growing your own corn?

Pssh why grow it, ill sell you up to 50,000 bushel at the chicago board of trade price if you come to Iowa to pick it up. Make all the ethanol youll need for a years.

[littleloogy]

Corn price is really taking a shit this year. Apparently all the corn that we exported did not get used because of the higher price last year. So, naturally the supply to demand ratio is now fucked thus we have a lower cost of corn.
@Enki;
The follower is OEM


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[Enki]

How much was it and where did you order it from? I might as well get a new one.

[littleloogy]

My local dealer. 68.00. My ass still hurts from the rape.


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[davychronic]

Originally Posted by littleloogy Corn price is really taking a shit this year. Apparently all the corn that we exported did not get used because of the higher price last year. So, naturally the supply to demand ratio is now fucked thus we have a lower cost of corn. @Enki; The follower is OEM Sent from a Galaxy far, far away...

Its more the brazilian reel crashed and our dollar is too strong. Its cheaper to buy imported brazilian corn than to buy our own. Price of corn crashed 2 years ago and since then its been dropping lower and lower. Lowest ive seen in a long time was right after the Paris attacks and since then its recovered almost to October 1st price.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by JSmith Can more data hurt? Forgive me if this has been determined before, but are we assuming that the black death occurs at shutdown and not while in use?

Well, 250miles/ 10 heat cycles in with the stock FP internals and sticky death has stated to take its toll on the spill valve. The pump sounds like it is still pumping fine, but the Spill valve functions are becoming problematic under low RPM higher loads, I.E. 6th gear @ 2300 RPM cruise.

Here is the "Spring Tensioner" as Mazda calls it. Part number L3K9-12-615





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[littleloogy]

Okay, well results are in and I am not going to test this further because I don't see a point.

When Installed the stock pump internals I inserted Royal Purple oil to try to create death in the pump quickly. Although I did gets few sticky death failures in my spill valve (which was anticipated) there was not any signs of death sticking to the stock piston. There was however death developing inside the retaining nut and outside of the barrel, but this was also expected as these parts are not nitride coated.








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[Mazdazilla6]

Awesome. So +1 for nitriding. Maybe we should get ahold of AT or CS and see if they'll consider revising their internals.

I think I might have my AT's get nitrided while I've got the engine out. It doesn't change thickness of the part so it should be fine.

[littleloogy]

Might as well do this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_nitride
Internals will be fit for a king.


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[Easter Bunny]

It would be nice if @CorkSport; would revise their internals to include an upgraded retaining nut and to nitride coat everything.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny It would be nice if @CorkSport; would revise their internals to include an upgraded retaining nut and to nitride coat everything.

All they have to do is get their hands on Vw/Audi's OEM retaining nut and include it with their redesigned FP internal.


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[Easter Bunny]

So all the designing has already been done? Seems like a slam dunk.