READ!

Its a chemical makeup within the ethanol content. There is no getting around it unless we can prevent the heat buildup of our pumps. Heating ethanol is what seems to cause the issue and leave the sticky substance.

The only other way around it is to find the exact makeup and try to draw it out of suspension or try and change its makeup with a chemical additive but I highly doubt this would be effective & over time it could cause greater issues.

There are some vendors that offer appropriate detergents for the 15-30% gasoline content to retain their lubricity and remain in suspension, but they're cost prohibitive, and until it's a federal mandate, odds are we'll have to put up with the wrong additives being added to the fuel... because it's cheaper to use what you've already got.

E85 would need to be 30% cheaper than 87 oct for mass market adoption and more scrutiny, and right now it's only a 25¢/gal price gap. There's little reason to use it unless you're a hippy or a tuner.

Price gap in Chicago is like $1.17


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Yeah, that makes sense. You're nearer to the corn belt for tanker delivery and probably have higher fuel costs in general.

87 oct here is just over 3 bucks, corn is 2.79.

Just thought of this, has anyone tried cooling the pump with ducting from the front of the car like brake ducting?

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Last time I got E it was actually MORE expensive... she claimed they only change the price every few months :omfg:

That wouldn't solve the problem. Especially when the car is shut off the heat from the engine seems to boil the fuel inside the pump.


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Yep, every time we Nator swap internals the car is still percolating and spitting from the heat, well after it's shut off. Maybe some kind of Peltier device, but it would probably end up getting stupid expensive and/or complex - just run 25-40% and call it a day imo.

A Peltier with a timer circuit & decent heat sink could potentially help.

Well if the ducting was enough to keep the pump from ever getting that hot then maybe it could help. Might not solve it all together. A heat sink with ducting blowing directly onto it would probably be pretty effective.

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Heat soak....... ducting isn't gonna help with that in any way.

Bro I did read why don't you go back a few pages and you can READ. I wrote a 3 page analysis on the makeup of e85 and did my own independent testing and analysis of the makeup o the Black Death. And the conclusion that I came to was that the Black Death came from the additives that are in the 15% of gas in e85 being that they were never formulated for use in e85. Basically the additives fall out of solution. And also because the 15% of gas is so low grade 83octane or so.

BUT I also beleived that certain stations played a effect exp older stations that used old inground tanks particularly diesel tanks and retrofitted them for e85, so they didnt have to pay the money to put new tanks in. Why don't you go take a look at the V8 guys that have ther fuel filters clog up all the time from some mysterious black shit in the fuel. I figured if we could possibly filter out some of the nastiness of the fuel itself it may help. And actually ran a intank fuel pump rated for use in alchol.

Ehh, my bad, I didn't realise you had posted that. lol

Either way, I don't think you're going to be able to filter it out.

So what if you were to run e98? Does anyone thing that could possibly solve the issue?

This is how I have been able to filter out the black death.

just need to refine it into a package for in-line use :)

http://mail.netsecurenow.com/img/fun/still.jpg

WTF........ :eek2:

















:dunce:

haha

I just thought that would fit in with the usefulness of some recent posts in here.

"OMG I READ YOU FAGGOT"

No, you didn't. If you did, you'd know that @phate; already had an inline fuel filter just before the hpfp and when he cut it open it looked like it was brand new.

In other news, and aside from all the seemingly popular bullshit thats being posted in here lately, I've done two things:

1. I've contacted APR to see about getting the center seal they use per @Haltech;'s post on page 2 and was told that they don't sell parts seperately, so I'd have to either buy a pump or internals (and if memory serves, they won't sell disi-mzr internals to anyone but CP-E).
2. I've purchased some Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 Full Synthetic for my next oil change. This is important because it's a Dexos 1 compliant oil, and is exactly the same as and sold by Shell directly in Europe as "Shell Helix Ultra;" a name that might mean something to some of you.

There is a third thing that I'm considering right now: having my gunsmith mill a retaining nut to accept a thick PTFE bushing/scraper between the collar and retaining nut (this would replace the stock plastic scraper/o-ring wholesale).

If milled properly, the PTFE scraper (set in RTV for sealing) would present the best possible chance for a solution.

Now, that all said, stop fagging up the thread.

^ I wasn't even talking to you so chill the fuck out.

I have brought nothing but useful information to the thread, and ur Gona call me a faggot thanks. My educated guess is just as good as yours at why this is a problem we have both done our research and testing so instead of calling each other names why don't we work together to figure out a solution.

I wasn't even singling you out or I would have quoted you, Like I am now.
Edit: I don't do educated guesses; I do science.

This is wrong. If this isn't wrong, then explain how my HPFP internals can cake up with enough black sticky shit in less than 50 miles to cause the pump to stop cycling. The testing that has been done in this and many other threads counteracts your "three page analysis" on what the black death is.

Also, donate.

speeding....cliff notes

black death is oil that gets past the o-ring and Petrol can keep it broken down while corn can not.

Thus why brother Enki is working on a scraper of sorts to keep the oil out of the pump and why black death occurs quicker with some brands of oil.

at least I think I have that right.

edit: and lol...read the thread title (HPFP + Oil)

Quite right. I'm attacking this problem on two fronts:

1. Finding an oil that won't break down as fast in the pump
2. Doing anything possible to prevent oil from entering the pump in the first place

As for what the sticky and black deaths are, there's a post around here somewhere that has videos of me boiling e85 in a pan with a couple drops of RT6 in it and I managed to replicate the sticky death perfectly.

We know for a fact the black death is oil seepage since even pump gas cars wind up with black death inside them after a while. Have someone with stock internals and 50k miles pull their pump and take pics and you'll see what I mean.

Im a penzoil P guy myself but have not crossed the 50% barrier to test it...interested to see if you find it helps.

if you used science then you would understand my analysis is actually very accurate if you do science and ur so smart then why don't you read what I wrote. And it is an educated guess until it's proven what you have my friend is a scientific theory. And a theory is a guess just so you know.

Alright, so what is this stuff? It is a appears to be a very large petroleum based hydrocarbon, similar to Vaseline. There isn't a single hetero-atom in the molecule (ie, the entire molecule is comprised of hydrogens and carbons), but the molecule is very large. It is also completely aliphatic (ie, only single bonds in the structure - no double or triple bonds). Where did it come from? I can only think of two different sources it could be coming from. It is either something that is mixed in with the rubber hoses that is meant to dissolve away in the gasoline, or it is a trace impurity in the 15% gasoline that is in E85 that wasn't separated during the fractional distillation process. Because it is such a large molecule, it wouldn't be very soluble in ethanol and could easily crash out of solution at the injector."

Oil in the pump is a good guess, but it dosent answer why the Black Death also jams up injectors and fuel rails on cars without a cam driven pump. oil sounds like a good theory but you have very little scientific evidence to back your theory up. You boiled e85 and the added oil and got a nasty goo. Did you attempt it with water, gas, did you have a control or lab analysis or anything else to help support your theory. Have you proven that the pump gets hot enough to boil the e85, ther are so many variables you are not accounting for gas has anywhere from a 100 to 425 degree boiling point depending on what the contents are and region and e85 has the same variance because of the 15% of gas in it and the amounts of additives region, even altitude plays a factor. Did you test any other e85 in the region or just your local pump, cause ther are many people on other forums that report very little o no goo after 3 years+ of 100% E85. And some people report the goo very soon after starting it.

Ther are to many variables you are not considering, and a more likely cause would be that the E85 is refined differently depending on region, and station pumps. A good place to start would be to repeat the test with different samples of e85 from different areas. Also others should run 100% in ther area and try different stations to see if they get the same results. Additives should also be tested seafom techron etc, and combination of things filter etc. if that dosent workThen you can go from ther. You idea is very interesting for them pump but I would rather find the cause befor I come up with a solution. I'm not trying to turn this pissing match I'm just trying to help find a feasible solution by starting at the root of the problem.

UPDATE:
Dug out my spare retaining nut and just ordered some PTFE barstock, which should be there Thursday.

Gunsmith will have both by next weekend, and hopefully it won't take a full week to get them back.

@speeding3; wow dude just shut the fuck up and read already. If your questions arent answered in the analysis that has already been performed why don't you take it upon yourself to do this research instead of berating the people that have done research. Fuckin brownie faggot


@everyone else: so I just need bigger injectors to do e85 on my speed right?

I did read what you wrote.

It isn't the hoses; @phate; tested this by soaking replacements for a long time, and that came back negative. He also sent a sample out for analysis to a lab, and that result came back as being oil related/derived (please correct me if I'm wrong, Phate).

In summary: The black death you tested from port injected cars probably IS from the hoses. This is from the oil.

As far as my testing procedure goes, my findings were pretty conclusive and re-testing with the equipment I have is simply not going to happen again. You see, it wasn't until after I had boiled almost a full gallon of E (which only resulted in a yellowish, oily substance when cooled that was not sticky) that I added the oil. After adding the oil, you may note, I also encountered no issues. Not one. It wasn't until I turned the heat up high enough to AUTOIGNITE the e85 that the sticky was created, and that very well could be from the e boiling away from pan and allowing the oil to alter chemically amidst the eth vapors that any sticky was seen. Shit I still have the sample plate and it's STILL STICKY.

The e85 I used for testing, by the way, looked like drinking water it was so clean. No joke.

If you want to prove me wrong, by all means, just document the shit out of it; I won't be repeating the tests because the with the conditions I was able to replicate the issue in, a fire resulted. Otherwise, please don't use anecdotal evidence from years back on a completely different platform with a completely different fuel system as your basis for fact concerning the DISI-MZR.

I honestly don't care who figures this issue out (because I want the corn), but there have been very, very few people that have actively tried to actually *do* anything about this issue. If you truly are fired up about running 100% e85, then I would recommend that you replace your lines, pump, filter and anything else you might consider to be a problem and test it for us; since the evidence I've seen points to nothing more than oil and heat, that is where I will be focusing my efforts.

Hows come we don't have a return system setup yet? We can make 50 catch cans in 3 minutes and make our own PCB's for cooling fans but can't convert to a return system because? :P

The bummer part of setting up a return style system is that even if we had it circulate fuel after the car is shut down, it would have to cool the entire head to a temperature below fuel boiling temperature.

At that point, it might be easier to set up an external electric fan and waterpump to cool the engine down afterwards, but I'm still not convinced it would help that much with the car running, since we don't know exactly when the goo transition begins (as I've had my pump stick on a cold start before even getting out of the driveway, but that was a different kind of test).

To back this up, here are my internals at 82K miles with only pump gas(E10) run through them.

Attachment 119630

Has anyone tested the boiling point of E85 at different pressures?

Lol that shit looks like it has hpfp ebola

Edit:
I would have done a pressurized test at 40, 50 and 60 psi with the hotplate, but I don't have the equipment for that. It was a consideration originally though.

When I pulled my pump at 80k for ATI. ther wasnt a spot of black residue. And that was the original pump. Lets look at this if it is a oil issue is it possible that ther are slightly different tolerances on the bore of the cam follower or maybe it's just wearing out enough to allow more oil to seep on some and not others. That's why I was leaning towards differnces in fuel quality because my pump was spotless at 80k while others seem to have problems at a much Lower mileage.

Well, I've nearly always ran Pennzoil Platinum or Ultra in my car. There's one bottle of Rotella 5w40 in there right now b/c it was on sale, otherwise it's 5w30 PenUltra right now.

For a first-timer, how long would it take to pull my pump & inspect?

Maybe an hour and a half to two hours depending on tools and skill.

Because of E, I've modified my car to make the pump more accessible. It now takes me longer to clean the internals/spill valve than it does to pull the pump and reinstall it, as I can remove the pump directly without having to remove any other part first.

Your best bet, though, is to have a local NATOR there to guide you through the process just to be safe.

With a fmic it takes me 10 minutes to pull my pump. 2 for just the spill valve.

I cut down a HF 19mm (size?) Wrench for the fuel inlet so I can get in there to losen it up

Youll also need an e8 tqx

SV is 32mm open end wrench.

Edit. Oh but I also dont have an EGR which is right in the way iirc.

Tappin

W.e size that nut it that is attached to the hardline, i think 17mm or 19mm, you put an open-end on the nut with it angled upwards, no need to cut a wrench down or anything....Loosens/tightens no problem.....Then just an E8 socket for the 3 bolts, and done!


I can take a pic later if no one understands what i mean.


Youll also need a vice to clamp pump on....I do it on the ground and use my foot to hold it down to tighten/loosen the actual internal part. ((Not the right way, but it works for me since i dont have a vice.

Don't forget the ziptie on the hardline!

just tappa it in...

Oil change complete. Just need to run the fuel down a bit, then pull the pump and clean it before going full e again, however long that will last >_>

Edit:
Once you've broken the retaining nut loose with a vice the first time, you don't need to use a vice any longer. I basically just go super hand tight and call it good.

I would have sworn you or someone tried that oil before.....Im going to try mobil 1 diesel oil once I break motor in and switch to 100%.

If they did, they didn't post it up in here.

Well I figured id post my findings, got bored during an oil change and decided to pull my pump and check for the black death. I have been on T6 since about the first oil change at 1500 miles. I've been running 40% Ethanol for about 8k miles now and I rarely I mean if ever run straight 91. My pump was absolutely spotless with T6 after 8k miles. I know I'm not running 50/50 or anything but I was still expecting to see some signs because I only ever run my e85 mix.

Also, I am testing oils with this change. I am trying the valvoline vr1 race oil in the 10/30 and will be having it sent off for complete analysis and testing after 3500 miles. @UnknownSuperhero; will be helping with that. I will post results of that as well once completed.

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On a big turbo you're also flowing a shitload of fuel (less bypass at high rpms)...That might be a factor as well.

So, just put 6 gallons of e85 in, made it almost all the way home before pressure shit the bed. It came back, so I flogged the fuck out of it just in time to lose pressure pretty much for good immediately after.

Now, I need to get the spill valve cleaned and tested as I have to wake up fuck early to run some errands before work; if it isn't the spill valve, I'll have to abort the test (as failed) since I won't have time to rebuild the pump wholly tonight.

I did, and posted it on MSF... Somewhere. I had a whole discussion about Dexos1 oils last summer.


Clif's Notes: spill valve still stuck.


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How often did it stick?

Also, pump had grey/yellowish nasty in it, and since I need to drive the family > 60 miles today before work, I can't really afford to be slowed down by a stuck pump or spill valve. I aborted the test, but I'll try again this weekend.

It stuck twice; once when doing a MAF cal (high RPM & low load causes the spill valve to stick much more quickly), and once driving around. I wish I could remember how long I ran that oil though. I just drove straight from Charleston, SC home and have been up for 27 hours straight; I'll look through my oil change data when/if I wake up.


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I'm a prior RX8 owner and with all the rotary love there is a lot of discussion on oil and oil types. The Rx8 uses an oil pump to spray minuscule amounts of oil inside the the "cylinder" walls and this oil is to be burned off via the combustion cycle and exit the vehicle as smoke (which cant be seen 99% of the time). You are basically tied to fossil oils with the rx8 because the synthetics do not combust and burn as smoke like the regular oil does. The unburnt oil is then pushed out the exhaust as black tar and collects in the cat, making things break later.

Since we kinda think its hot as hell inside the hpfp the burnable parts of our synthetics may be vaporizing and leaving normally and the nonburnable parts are hanging out, and breaking our pumps.

With all that being said, i dunno crap about our fuel system, or oiling system. Just some thinking out loud. Like always plz provide reasoning for shooting down my insanity.

We could boil e-85 and apply regular oil and record results. (check for sticky)
Can our cars even use non-synth or do they automatically seize/det?? I honestly dunno.

prepared for the groans :)

We already tried the boiling test with synthetic oil but I am not sure if regular oil was tried due to the fact our cars and direct Injection eat oil for breakfast!


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Lol. I understand why noone would want non-synth in their engines. The boiling trick i think is great since we can visualize what is going on in the hpfp. As far as it being under pressure or not shouldnt matter too much I dont think. I know that for a crok-pot (yeah its that reference) you can raise the heat much higher than normal before boiling is achieved. (likewise you can actually depressure a liquid enough to boil at room temperature).

This is super far out there but just a question to get an idea of how everything works...
What exactly is the combustion chamber pressure for our cars with a moderate e-85 tune?
Would our injectors, with the presence of high amounts of ethanol be allowed to have soot pushed up through the injectors? And then this soot is collecting? Is e-85 damaging the injectors themselves and the problem working from the combustion chamber backwards?

Just crazy questions to help rule out any possibility...

WTF brownies !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

http://mail.netsecurenow.com/img/fun/trainderail.jpg

This thread is now about catfish and women that enjoy the company of dogs and peanut butter.

Relevant images:

http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...xq_460s_v3.jpg

http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...asboodah/1.gif

Teflon rod came in today, gonna get it to the gunsmith asap for milling.

Sick! Hope everything works, so I can run 100% again without problems!

Penn Plat failed to even get me home before pressure drop kicked in. Next on the list is Royal Purple 5-30, which gives me a little hope as it's the only oil I will have or will be testing that's labeled DEXOS 1 compliant.

I'll be changing the oil out either later this afternoon or tomorrow.

Was that with the teflon rod??


I had good results with vr1 oil.

VR1 didn't work for me either; as for the teflon scraper, that is still in progress.

Edit:
I'd personally prefer to resolve this issue with nothing more than a specific oil rather than having to custom mill part of the fuel pump.

I didn't like vr1 either. I'm at abour 2500 miles on it and don't like what I saw when I checked my oil, much much darker then when I was running t6.
@Enki; I'm going to be testing an oil called Purol look into if you'd like. I've spoken with a few of the companies engineers of the oil about testing in DI motors and they have results and info on the break down even with e85. Ill let you know how I like it and what I see from it


http://bisimoto.com/store/index.php?...Path=5_120_249

Link to the oil, note: It is pretty expensive, even more so the RP, but with the testing and finding I've personally seen after talking with them, I'm giving it a shot.
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If your Rotella T6 is working.. why are you changing.. I have ran mine since day 1. (also in every turbo'd car ive ever owned.) Never an issue.

Keep in mind your testing will only be valid if you're running full-on E85, not a mix.
Otherwise test away!

Because i don't always intend on running less than 50% e85. I want to find an oil that I can run 50% and greater with the soon to be built motor and aux fueling

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I ran e45 (50/50) on t6 for ages without issue; it's higher concentrations that fuck the pump.

Mobil 1 diesel oil I hear is good for e85, that's what mobil one recommends.



And idk if any oil will help. May help for a lil while, but spill valve will still get junked up.....Scraper may be the only thing to rly help without cleaning pump for awhile. Idk.

Pressure dropped off halfway through my morning trip; I will say, however, that while cruising on the freeway the engine was "kicking" quite a bit and AFRs were stable, so I take that as a sign that the pressure was trying to come back.

Also, the moment I got home, pressure started to return and at some point was even at target. While it doesn't last long, I hold hope for my next oil change removing more of the old oil which is what I'm thinking is the cause of the current issues.

That said, I'll be pulling the spill valve this afternoon to see if that is the only issue (which I'm hoping is the case). If it isn't, I'll be going back to 50/50 until sometime after next oil change (which will be in the next couple months, and will be RP again).

IT'S ALIVE!

Spill valve had a little sticky. 5 minutes and back at full gumption; 1/4 tank down, let's see how far this goes.

Awesome progress!!!! I'll be on E by the end of the week but I'm starting slow with only an E31 mix (9/5).

Yeah, it is awesome. I'm thinking the sticky spill valve is a result of not having all the old oil out of the engine when the new shit went in; should be cut in half with the next oil change though, and thus last longer between cleanings.

If it does get better, I'll probably be running RP for the foreseeable future. I've also ordered some Blackstone testing kits, and will be following their recommendations for oil change intervals, although the next oil change I do will probably only have a thousand or so miles on it.

So went out for lunch today, about 40 minutes round trip. Pressure fell out on the way back, but did the same thing it did the previous time; it fought to come back, so I'm pretty sure it's just the spill valve again.

I'll go clean it a little later and see what's up, but I'll probably go back to 50/50 until sometime after the next oil change before I continue testing it, or until the scraper gets built.

If it is just spill valve again (likely), then it's already a huge ass leap forward on this problem.

Im switching to 100% in about a week and will start testing again......Its getting cold over here now tho, especially at night......E85 hated cold and always dropped pressure from the spill valve getting sticky

I have an idea on how to fix the cold start issues in the winter, and if RP fixes the pump issues I'll do a bunch of testing for it to confirm.

Thank you for all the work you guys are doing. I am looking forward to watching y'all succeed with your goal!

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Issue was the spill valve again. Took 3 minutes to clean it and I was on my way; I rolled on down to the gas station where I normally get my corn, and put in 5 gals of 91 and dropped my 50/50 mpg tune on it.

As a side note, I got 91 miles on that 5 gallons (which I had to force in; the fill neck was full) so I averaged about 18.2 MPG stomping the shit out of it. Not too shabby, and I think I can probably get close to stock or better mileage on full E (I'll test this when the time comes).

Anywho, no issues after this latest spill cleaning, which I must say I was curious about since the spill needle didn't actually feel all that sticky. No issues on the way home with a 9/5 mix either; I'll probably put another 2 gallons of 91 in when there's room for it though just to get my tune back on track.

Also, I did the mix test in a little 12 oz ocean spray bottle; the results were...interesting. When I first put the E in the bottle on top of the oil, it was a little cloudy and light purple but still clear enough to see the layered difference. I shook it, and it made like a hazy film that coated the inside of the bottle. 30 minutes later, there didn't appear to be any change so I've decided to wait and see if anything is different tomorrow morning; I'll post up pics after that.

Now, the reason I say the results are interesting, is because it doesn't look like there will be any separation of oil and fuel in this case. That alone is interesting, because when I did the t6 boiling oil/corn test, the oil basically stayed in droplet form the whole time at the bottom of the pan; that is important because it leads me to believe that if the fuel will soak into the oil, then it stands to reason that the oil will soak into the fuel; thus, no black death.

I'll probably confirm this by pulling the pump this weekend, after I get back from Phoenix.

Needless to say, I'm even more optimistic than ever about RP working to resolve the issues we've had with full corn on these cars...

Time will tell though, time will tell.

I'm so excited for ANYTHING to work. I'm on the Perm tune list but it's not going to happen for a while it looks like so hopefully this gets sorted by the time I get tuned. Thank you for doing the testing!
Also I'm in Tucson as well so if there is anything you need help with let me know, my car can be a test subject since I hardly drive being across the street from campus.
Sent from GS4

I think we need to switch to the ULX110 oil @Enki;. I'll see if I can get a hold of some. You saw in that video that it separated the E85 and oil pretty quick.

Also, if the E85 and oil are mixing like you stated, won't this create more issues, possibly destroying o2 sensors? Running rich?

But thank you for doing the test as I was itching to know. I figured it wouldn't be like the ULX video, as ULX is a mineral oil.

Me too.
If you want to test, and I mean truly test, back up my findings by swapping oils, or even test other oils not in the list (just be careful you don't test shit oils that could potentially damage the car).

I'm not convinced the oil being carried away by the fuel is an entirely bad thing. Remember that my hot plate testing showed that the little droplets of oil hanging around is what caused the sticky in the first place.

As for oil being a problem, I don't really see how it would considering how many cars have smoky turbos and how even cars that have only run pump gas ever have had black death buildup so bad that the internals collar had to be pried out of the pump.

At this point I'm basically for anything that works, and won't cause other issues along the way; it's entirely possible that this will be the last brand of oil I ever run, with or without the scraper.

I've never heard of the black goop buildup occurring using only normal pump gas?

The black goop buildup has been occurring for quite a while on other platforms. I remember back when I first started using E85 on my SRT-4, I read this. Still to this day, no one seems to have a real viable answer to it.

OK... Now Let's Talk About the Downsides of e85 - SRT Forums - SRT4, SRT6, SRT8, SRT10 & Dodge Forum

At first people thought it was the pumps themselves, some people said that old diesel tanks were refilled with E85. But then people came out saying their E85 stations had put in brand new containers in the ground.

A second thought was, it's eating away slowly at the rubber lines.

E85 is also VERY good at dissolving debris in the tank over time, and this might just be a side effect. It would be interesting of a test if someone ran E85 straight on a brand new fuel tank with no chance of debris in it.

Here is also a thread on a Evo running for 3 years straight and no sign of the goop.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/e85-eth...years-e85.html

There is so many things that are obstacles. Not to discourage you at all. I remember when I first bought into this platform, one of my first questions to Dale was; "Can I run full E85."

Obviously we have to figure out what is causing this goop, as it might not be the oil (unlikely but plausible) and the factor of it on the spill valve.

The worst pump I've ever seen came off a cx7; hence my comment about prying the pump apart. Pretty sure it only ever ran pump gas, as it was purchased from a shop that wound up replacing the motor. It had the stock internals in it still.
@phate; already did a test with one of those huge canister filters that catches even the tiniest shit, and found nothing in the filter. It was spotless.

My testing with the hot plate was pretty fucking difinitive as to oil being the cause of the sticky death at the very least.

Read:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...-issues-79030/

That will give you an idea of where we've been and what has been tested and determined, thus far. That thread, and this one, will get you up to speed on "where we are" with E85.

@Enki; maybe you can store some E85 to keep your testing consistent. Looks like southern parts of AZ are a week away from possible E74 deliveries.

Honestly I'm not too terribly worried about a 5% (maximum) content drop. It's still enough to cause issues with pumps as it is. Normally, I don't even flash a new map with changed scalars; I let the LTFTs soak it up.

Oil is out of the car, to be replaced tomorrow.

*Que dramatic music*

Car not going anywhere for a bit while I figure shit out:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...ordeal-157429/

TLDR: Car on jack stands, no manifold or turbo installed; unable to proceed due to lack of parts/proper configuration on turbo and vague instructions.

Baseline UOA on the RP oil has been mailed today...somewhere around 1k miles on it but should give me an idea of where it sits.

Not trying to thread jack, or post in the wrong place, but I had a random thought today at work and I want to get it out before I forget it because I'm about to leave the house in like five minutes.


There's probably some way to isolate the pump area, including the end of the cam from engine oil. This way no engine oil ever reaches the fuel pump in the first place.

The parts could then bathe in some OTHER type of lubricant, one that wouldn't react the same way as typical engine oil would. (if such a lubricant exists) A type of closed loop, splash lubrication system perhaps.

Maybe the pump isnt the place to prevent black goo, but rather the pump's mounting base itself.

If this has been ruled out before or doesn't make sense, disregard this post.

Unfortunately the cam follower has to have oil all the way around it, and without the vent holes for oil to drain out, at some point whatever lubricant is in the follower will be forced into the pump proper. Also, you'd want whatever lubricant is there to cycle through and get filtered/cooled at some point.

Sadly, it doesn't really seem viable to fully isolate the pump like that without spending huge amounts of time/money on modifications to the pump when I might prove in the coming weeks that a simple change of oil can resolve the issues with E.

Excellent feedback, thanks!

Baseline oil test came back...Low mileage, so nothing to see really.
Next test in 3 months or so.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...ml#post2316309

Might be testing e74 (full e85 spring/fall blend, which is southern AZ's winter blend) as soon as tonight. I'm still running the pump as it was the last time I tested, and the only thing that's been done to it since the last full breakdown is the reported 2 spill valve cleanings. I'm curious to see how it goes.

Updates to follow.

Made it home with no issues. Might go for another little drive tonight and see how it does, or I might just wait till tomorrow morning and go meet up with some locals for a stockout (not me stocking out).

Pretty promising, considering I've not cleaned the pump since the last time.

How many miles was your drive? God I hope we figure this out!

About 12, but it doesn't really matter, seeing as how the past two times I've tried full corn I've not made it home without issues.

Tonight, however, marks a change.

The pump has still not been cleaned, and I've put another 20-23 hard flogging miles on it.

ZERO ISSUES SO FAR!

If there is hope, it comes in a purple bottle...

Wow. I hope people realize what a great achievement this is if it turns out to have fixed the black death issue. Its one more thing that would let us push this platform even further. Enki, thank you for all your hard work. Can't wait to see your numbers with that EFR turbo on full corn juice.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

Threads like these are why i love MSF. Great to see that something is potentially working. myself and I'm sure many other members really appreciate all the time, money, and risk you've taken by using your vehicle for this process.

Pressure dropped out; pulling pump tomorrow for full cleaning (first time in a long time). Details here:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...ml#post2323533

Damn. So if this doesn't work out, do you have another plan?

Yeah, gunsmith has stuff to mill specialty scraper for the HPFP.

OK so cleaned the pump out, found some nasty shit in there but no black death. It was pretty sticky but that's likely because I didn't clean the spill valve all that well last time and Ski used T6 to re-lube the spill valve o-ring. :banghead:

Anywho, the first thing I noticed when I pulled the pump was that I could actuate the internals by hand without too much issue. It was squishy, but not really sticky; not really sure if it was becoming an issue or not. The spill valve was definitely sticking though.

At any rate, I'm below half a tank from being topped off with full E, so things look pretty decent. I'd like to see how long it goes on a full clean from here, but I'm not sure if I'm potentially having some ITFP issues or not. Time will tell, updates will follow.

Pressure dropped out again after 50 ish miles. Went back to 50/50 for now until I think this through a little further and get the car running stable.

So far, though, all the issues I've hit have been spill valve related, which is much easier to deal with than black death on the internals.

At any rate, it doesn't look like I'll be able to run stock boost with the EFR due to fueling window limitations, so further involvement on my part may be short lived here on out.

Do you know how to create the sticky substance that we get in our SVs? I have some fresh/wild ideas in my head to keep the SV clean however I need a specimen. I quit running straight E85 because of reliability (daily driver). Now I wish I would have saved all the gunk funk