Yes. Boil E85 + oil in a saucepan on really high heat. E alone won't do it.

Edit:
It might be possible to slightly mill the spill valve so it will accept a tiny PTFE washer between the needle and the actual channel/button thingie. That is where it sticks, and where the spill valve issue will likely be solved.

It might also be possible to simply polish part of it so there's very little seating contact between needle and channel/button thingie. That would also probably work rather well and be easier most likely.

Agreed, Thanks for the recipe. I'll use FP hardware mod attempts as a last resort.

Be very careful when heating fuel. The vapor is extremely volatile and doesn't take much to go off.

@Enki; knows this from experience...

That’s exactly why I posted that, lol.

It’s best to do it in an open environment with a good breeze. Next best thing would be in the garage with a fan blowing out of the garage.

Best with no breeze and DEF not in an enclosed environment. Open space for sure.

Keep in mind the only time I was able to replicate the sticky was when the e85 auto ignited. Food for thought.

So much for cooking this on my stove next to my dinner tonight. Thanks for the heads up guys... May have saved my eyebrows

This is interesting. The fueling stations themselves get black death it appears, complete with cavitating pumps and clogged filters.

The reason I suggested a breeze is to quickly disapate the volatile vapor "cloud".

Keep in mind, the vapor is heavier than air so if you have a gas fired water heater or anything with a pilot light anywhere near where you're working you have a highly explosive situation.

I did my testing in the driveway on an electric hotplate and it still burst into flames.

No spark or open flames within 100 feet of it.

A slow simmer would probably be better. The rest of the comment was focused towards @littleloogy;

http://t.qkme.me/3lcd.jpg

All joking aside I will be heading to my lab to create the substance and do my testing. Now I have an excuse to wear my flame suit.

You can't do a slow simmer. Not with full E85. 5 seconds after I would take it off of the hotplate (boiling) it would be cool enough to touch the bottom. It *HAS* to have *EXTREMELY* high heat in order to get the oil hot enough to do the breakdown thing; normally in the pump it would be 160+ degrees and under pressure so the fuel wouldn't boil.

You might be able to keep it in a sealed metal container and replicate though, without risk of fire.

Pretty sure @phate; already sent in some sticky/black death to be tested and found it to be compounds normally found in oil.

A bomb?

I said there wouldn't be risk of fire, didn't say anything about explosion.

If you've got a set of brass balls, perhaps you could try this in a pressure cooker.

FYI, I used a portable laser thermometer to take temp readings off the fuel pump after going out for lunch today; parts where the fuel was boiling (I.E. the spill valve area) were about 140 Fahrenheit, while lower down and closer to the head read between 160 and 165.

Not sure if this has been suggested / dismissed already; the idea of a phenolic spacer to reduce heat transfer to the HPFP?

But then if something like that was possible, wouldn't the internals assembly be too short if we are essentially spacing the pump off of the head slightly?

Hmm I wonder how much an effect a gasket would make. I would think we would see a reduction in volume due to the shorter stroke of the piston. Most internals seem to like to run away up top if all the gasket did was stop this from happening it might not be a bad thing


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yes you would need to make a spacer for the top of the internals as well, or make a longer set of internals.

I suggested a TIG for the pump could potentially help much earlier in this very thread, but recanted considering hot ass engine oil splashes all over the pump. I've also suggested converting to a return style fuel system, but that would only allow cooling for as much thermal mass as there is fuel before heatsoaking.

You could have the pump or pump mount milled a little to account for the spacer and keep everything in check; I have a spare pump to head mounting assembly that this could be tested with, but I'm not too sure this would work anyways.

I don't really think it would be a good idea to use a reduction in effective fuel flow volume via displacement changes in the pump to control the runaway pressure when you can simply modify the HPFP commanded tables to achieve the same result. My table, for example, is attached (I should note that I'm still fucking with this to get the result I want). I run a 2100 rail valve so if I let pressure run away, I hit fuel cut almost immediately.

Or you could mill the pump mount to the head, or the pump, or have a custom follower bucket made. Milling the pump mount to the head is probably the best option, because there's tons of thread on the three bolts and taking 1mm off of it probably wouldn't hurt it any. There'd still probably be a fair bit of heat transmission through the bolts and via ambient air, though, so it would really be a matter of time before the pump got hot again; I just think it would take longer.

I didn't think it was the best solution I would just be curious to see the effect it had

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I think someone needs to get their hands on an SRT4 fuel pump for analysis...last I heard, they don't have the issues we have.

Interesting. I'll run by my buddies wrecking yard after work and see if i can't locate one.

....Um I am confused. The dart srt4 isn't really out...and the caliber erm...well doesn't have a hpfp.

Guess I'm mistaken on the SRT4 part, but I am pretty sure that there's something out there with a hpfp that doesn't have issues on full corn.

335i?

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cobalt ss turbocharged

Skittle, SRT, Cobalt, they all look the same to me. Lol

I've read numerous cobalt forums and people are running 100% E on the stock HPFP with no issues at all. It's the only DI car I've seen run full e85 without fuel pressure issues. Even 335i's can't do it. I had a friend running 70% E with a 400lph e85 compatible lpfp and it still didnt work. His logs showed drops in fuel pressure especially between shifts.

Then we need to dissect a Cobalt pump.

Noted.

Been thinking this for a really long time. I've seen them making 340-350whp and 400+trq. But we all know our stock rods can't take that much torque.

Edit: just looked up some info. What trifecta tuning has done for the cobalt to run full E was to crank up fuel rail pressure and change the starting window for the injectors. Some people had experienced low fuel pressure because the lpfp wasn't providing the hpfp with enough fuel to compensate for needing a higher volume of E than compared to gas. So some people upgrade their lpfp and then are good to go. ZZP also created a stock profile camshaft that has a larger lobe for the hpfp. I've seen some of them have a roller follower on their hpfpand some have the same interal setup that we do. I don't know too much about the inner workings of these pumps so I can't speak as to why the LNF platform can support full E, but I'm hoping it can give us some insight.

We will probably have to actually take one apart to find out more; our major issue with e85 is the fact that nasty shit builds up inside and causes all sorts of mayhem. If they aren't reporting similar issues, it's probably because of a fundamental design difference in the pump.

Agreed. Luckily their hpfp can be had really cheap compared to ours. So it might pay to get one and rip it apart.


Cobalt SS LNF Turbo Buick Regal Direct Injection Pump 2 0 Eng | eBay

I will see if I can't get one for free first. If so, i will get it over to ENKI so he can take a look at it. No sense of spending money for no reason.

That would be pretty cool. If you can get one free, let me know what shipping is and I should be able to get you that much at least. Kind of in debt up to my ass due to EFR purchase at the moment, though so buying a new one just to destroy doesn't make financial sense to me right now.

All you see are headlights in your rearview mirror?

I'll cheap in for the pump as well if you guys can't find a free one.

This!! I'm sure we could get a few people together who are willing to chip in for the cause.

If it comes to that, let's not spend a whole bunch on a new pump that's only going to get destroyed.

My buddy sold the only cobalt block with the pump still installed. I am going to try one more place. Then its off to eBay we go...

No luck. Is the pump that what's his face posted earlier the correct one? I will hit buy it now and get it on its way.

Edit:
This may not be the right one.

I've been researching these and it seems these pumps are used in a lot of flex fuel applications. Do you know who actually makes the fuel pump for our engines? Is it bosch, denso, or maybe another company that does DGI? I am hitting a wall...

Blind people don’t see blackness, they see nothing.

Hitachi.

I pulled my pump apart today to clean it due to some pressure drop I was seeing and looking at the spill valve (the only thing that appears to be having issues with full corn at the moment), it should be really feasible to have the seat milled (the part where the needle contacts that gets pried off of the spill valve assembly) and have a little tiny ptfe washer made for right there. I'm pretty sure the needle assembly doesn't see much, if any flow, and that all of it goes through the seat and button area itself (out the sides).

I'll talk to my gunsmith, but unfortunately I won't be able to test much of this stuff going forward.

You still interested in seeing the SS pump?

Hell yeah, there's always room for analysis, and I'm sure we can locate a test car.

Maybe... Maybe we can....

just tappa it in...

I don't like using my DD for testing. But I will help fund the project. PM me your address @Enki; I. Get you the pump.

Blind people don’t see blackness, they see nothing.

Does anyone happen to have a bit of 1/16th phenolic spacer material to cut a gasket for Enki too? :)

This may sound a little ghetto, but what about getting a cheap cutting board at a dollar store?

Phenolic Material is chemical resistant. I would not want dollar store crap breaking down and getting in my fuel or oil. Why don't you try it and let us know how it goes ;-)

Hdpe should lend itself very well to alcohol and acid resistance.

Phenolics are also carcinogens, so I wouldn't recommend just cutting some up.

Now you tell me; I've been smoking this shit for over a month now.

what about 335i HPFP ? my cousin runs K in his car 80% of the time and he never has any issues.Looking at his logs they look to be rather consistent pressure without any loss in pressure even between shifts.Although we have never taken it apart to inspect he has been running E for almost 2 years on JB3 tune.

The more the merrier, IMO.

You know you have a test car right here in tucson.

Even if i go zzb or break anything i wont care

Or two...

just tappa it in...

I'm in for helping with this. I'll help with funding if necessary and test car awesomeness. Just let me know!

I only have one. .. haha

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Well the thing about full E and stock turbo is that you won't blow the motor unless you hydrolock it; speaking from experience, of course.
@Da6d; where are you located?

I'm in DFW, and I have a corn station 7 miles from the house.

Edit: I'll update my profile to show location.

Testing will probably be local for now, so that in case something goes sour I can intervene quickly and in person. After that, if any progress is made, testing will probably branch out a bit further.

Well just keep me in mind. I'm going to start doing some research based off of the findings in here. I'd like to be able to help progress the research. If i find anything different I'll post it in here.

@Enki; you should have the cobalt SS pump by Wednesday next week. I'll keep my eye open for our HPFPs. I'll try to get some cost effective used cores that you can use for mod testing.

Blind people don’t see blackness, they see nothing.

I have stock HPFP that I can donate for the cause :) @Enki; PM me your address, I'll find it and sent it to you.

Thanks guys, you're all awesome.

Honestly, I'd like to wait a little while before I start hoovering up peoples stock/replacement parts for long term manipulation...want to have an action plan discussed with the Kings before I give shit to my gunsmith for violation.

@littleloogy; pump arrived today, probably play with it some tomorrow/Sunday. Cursory glance: not too sure how to disassemble this thing...Gonna have to hunt around for some instructions, or worst case, cut it open.

I was wondering the same thing. I attempted to take it apart, but when I pulled out my 2' pipe wrench I realized it was best that I did not. Break it if you have to, Godspeed.

Bring it tomorrow night. @Enki;

just tappa it in...

I will if I can get it apart.

UPDAET TIEM!

Pulled the pump apart, found some amazing information. GM was *extremely* smart about their design.

First off, the pump is laser welded shut and had to be cut open:

Second, their pulsation damper design is pretty awesome and seriously shrinks the size of the pump housing. They do a vented design so the pulsation damper puck (looks like the one in ours) gets pressure from both sides; I don't think there's a spring pack in it like ours has. I forgot to take a picture of this so I'll get it later tonight most likely so everyone can see what I'm talking about.

Third, their HPFP internal surface area is TINY. The internals face is about the size of our stock internals, give or take. I can mic them if anyone wants, but haven't done it yet.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1385851092

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1385851092

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1385851092

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1385851092


Now for the interesting shit: Looks like they used poly valve seals as the base for their internals sealing system. Fucking genius:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1385851092

On the right here is a standard valve seal; my pops has polys in his race car, so didn't use the standard ones, and is the one who identified the seal type/design:
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1385851092


And the inside area of the seal:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1385851092

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1385851092

This is a wholly free floating design; I was able to manipulate the internals to a very high degree with that part of the pump removed. You can also see that the area around the internals is vented/circulated to keep it clean to a MUCH higher degree than in our cars.

So if anyone reading this has some engineering background and has access to CAD and the like, we need a new retaining nut that uses a poly valve seal instead of this o-ring bullshit.

Fucking sweet.

So what you're saying is...this might be possible now?

I'll see if my brother can do it. He is an engineer, and uses a few different CAD programs. This may or may not be his cup of tea...

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

Everything is possible until they are not...

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

Yeah everything is possible until it fails to work.

With it welded together, how would those guys upgrade their pumps?

Honestly, I don't think they can...

It makes you wonder. You said the internals are about the displacement of our stock ones, right?

Yeah, they are also 2 liter engines and probably have slightly longer stroke than ours do...I vaguely recall reading something about the cam HPFP lobes getting upgraded or something for more fuel.

The upgrade for them is a cam with an extra lobe for the hpfp. Does anyone know if there are drop in pumps available for them?

Yes, Bosch makes so much shit for their GM direct injection. They have a direct replacement on this page http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/conte.../html/2832.htm

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

Sorry wrong link try this... http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/pdf/...umps/HDP_5.pdf


Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

Bump for update... :pokey:

So I just spent about 2 hours reading the while thread from begging to end. Prop to you guys. Awesome work. There was one question someone asked earlier, which sounded pretty plausible IMO, but hasn't been addressed. It was the kid with the rx8 and the question about reg oil. The idea of the oil burning up and not leaving gunky residuals on the HPFP sounds quite plausible to me. I am staring a tune to run e85. My tuner (TiGraySpeed6) told me about this thread when I asked about running 100% e. I would love to do it but he warned me about the Black Death. After I get tuned I'll try to test the reg gas with 100%, but I figured I could bring it up again to be answered. Unfortunately I can't see a reason why it wouldn't work, so please I ask oh wise ones, shed some light. Lol happy new year.


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The oil can't "burn up" in the pump; that would be an engine bay fire for sure. It has to dissolve and be carried away, but the design of the pump isn't really ideal for this.

The best way around this issue would be to have a retention system similar to what the Cobalts have with excellent sealing to keep the oil out of the fuel pump.

Great. Thanks for the insight. I was under the wrong understanding that the goo was caused by the synth oil not having the favorable properties that avoid the build up.


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The type/brand/mix/whatever of oil you use can reduce the effect of the buildup (as per my personal results in this thread) but the only way to fix it 100% is to prevent the oil from getting in there in the first place.

I'm with you. I saw that you tried numerous types of oil. How is your setup now? Still running 50/50? Should I experience the goo with that mix? We might be shooting for a 4 gallons of e per tank on my tune. I'm hoping more than that. But we'll see.


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You'll get buildup no matter what mix you run but at or below 50/50 is generally fine even on the most problematic oils.

I'm on e25 right now due to airflow (see my big turbo thread).

And if memory serves, you liked the RP better, right? I think that's what my tuner said too. Thanks for all the work man, the community appreciates. Keep up with the good work


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RP is more E tolerant. After this next change with RP, I'll be going back to Rotella T6. It's far, far less expensive and probably superior to the RP oil.

Also, on 50/50 I ran it for over a year with no issues so there shouldn't be any issues going back to it now that I'm on E26.

You will be fine at 50/50. I have been on 50/50 for almost 2 years, switched to 93 a tank or two, switched to 25 percent, and back to 50/50....always used T6 in my car.

This may be a long shot, but do you think something like this would have ANY effect on this issue? I'm assuming not, but figured it might be worth mentioning.

BG Ethanol Fuel System Defender | BG Products, Inc.
@Enki;

This is good wording for snake oil bullshit, nothing more.

I don't know how many people here have seen the inside of gasoline vs meth/eth race engines, but the combustion chamber and piston crown conditions would surprise you.

Edit:
Have a look at this: http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...=12892&start=0
Note that this guy ran the engine on gasoline for 6 months before switching to e85, or everything would be cleaner. Compare these images to teardowns from this very forum and you'll see a marked difference.

Kings of Corn (HPFP + OIL)
 

Have you tried running Castrol Edge? We have 5w-30 diesel oil and 5w-40 for gas engines at the dealership I work at, so I can get it cheap. I'd rather run this, especially if rotella is the worst for running ethanol mixes.
@Enki;