Kings of Corn (HPFP + OIL)

[Enki]

OK for those of you running pure e85, what oil are you running and how long between HPFP/spill valve cleanings are you able to go (distance or time)?

I've been on Rotella T6 and can't go very long without having the spill valve go out on me.

Edit: I'll database responses in OP.

Oil and E responses:

Rotella T6 5-40:
Enki: Sticky and black death
Phate: Sticky and black death
GLORIFIEDBOZO: Sticky and black death; cleaned monthly
Silvapain: No issues (pending confirmation)
Metallemur: No issues

VR1 10-30:
Enki: Low mileage sticky death
Mazdafreak: No issues (pending long term testing)
GLORIFIEDBOZO: No issues

Mobil 1 10-30:
Khopwood77: No issues

Royal Purple 10-30:
GLORIFIEDBOZO: No issues

Royal Purple 5-30 DEXOS1:
Enki: Sticky death, off and on; best oil I've tested yet (on full E85) Testing ended due to big turbo.

Pennzoil Platinum Full Syn 5-30:
Enki: Low mileage pressure drop; sticky and black deaths

Pennzoil Ultra 5-30:
littleloogy: < 500 miles Sticky and black deaths

[phate]

Originally Posted by Enki I've been on Rotella T6 and can't go very long without having the spill valve go out on me.

Same. And it makes me sad.

[chuckms6]

just curious as ive never looked at the spill valve, how would the type of oil affect the life of a fuel system component?

[Enki]

It's less of a life issue and more of an issue with the chemical properties of the oil. My testing indicates that if you boil e85 with trace amounts of Rotella T6 in it (and yes, I actually did this), that the oil will leave a sticky residue behind. The fuel itself did not do this (after a half gallon) but the second I put some drops of oil in, shit got real.

And yes, e will boil inside your fuel pump.

[Speeden6]

Sub for more infor!

so when you say "Pure E85" you talking 100% mix? I have heard so many people talking about spill valve troubles with E85 it makes me worry, im running it without issues yet, have only 1K on the clock with it at a 30% mix. teach oh wise ones !

[Enki]

Yes, nothing but the purest.

[silvapain]

I ran T6 on E85 the whole time. I'm going to try something different on the new engine (not sure what yet).


Tapadatass

[mazdafreak]

I run the vr1 racing oil....I clean my spill valve about every week just so fp doesn't drop when I'm cruising somewhere, just to be on safe side and I have pulled my pump, and it has been spotless clean....both the spill valve and hpfp are spotless after pulling pump....I have had no problem at all on the vr1 oil!

I uploaded pics of me finally pulling the pump after 1500+ on the other thread and it was spotless, barely any spec of black, that was just between the treads tho.

[forcedinduktion]

Originally Posted by mazdafreak I run the vr1 racing oil....I clean my spill valve about every week just so fp doesn't drop when I'm cruising somewhere, just to be on safe side and I have pulled my pump, and it has been spotless clean....both the spill valve and hpfp are spotless after pulling pump....I have had no problem at all on the vr1 oil! I uploaded pics of me finally pulling the pump after 1500+ on the other thread and it was spotless, barely any spec of black, that was just between the treads tho.

That's just way overly anal and unnecessary to clean it every week. Maybe at 1k intervals. Ive been on 50 50 for almost 5k now and FP is the same since my first fill. And I am using T6 as well.

[Enki]

Just so you guys know, this thread is about people running extremely high (>50%) to full on e85; not cut with gas.

@silvapain: Is your post in reference to running pure e85?

@mazdafreak: Do you have any buildup of sticky residue? What ratio of city to highway driving do you do? Also, even if your pressure does drop out, you won't hurt the motor; if you could run it twice as long before next cleaning and report the results, I'd (and the community) would appreciate it greatly. As for losing pressure: trust me; both Phate and myself have had it happen at WOT. On a secondary side note, it is possible to hit freeway speeds with only ITFP pressure; you just accelerate slow as balls.

[mazdafreak]

Originally Posted by forcedinduktion That's just way overly anal and unnecessary to clean it every week. Maybe at 1k intervals. Ive been on 50 50 for almost 5k now and FP is the same since my first fill. And I am using T6 as well.

It takes me 5 mins to clean my spill valve, and I do it just cause I don't want my fp to drop like over the weekend cruising around etc.....it doesn't bother me at all...and I have not seen one problem running 50/50... Spill valve only takes a shit on 100% from what I have seen/read.

Originally Posted by Enki Just so you guys know, this thread is about people running extremely high (>50%) to full on e85; not cut with gas. @silvapain: Is your post in reference to running pure e85? @mazdafreak: Do you have any buildup of sticky residue? What ratio of city to highway driving do you do? Also, even if your pressure does drop out, you won't hurt the motor; if you could run it twice as long before next cleaning and report the results, I'd (and the community) would appreciate it greatly. As for losing pressure: trust me; both Phate and myself have had it happen at WOT. On a secondary side note, it is possible to hit freeway speeds with only ITFP pressure; you just accelerate slow as balls.

Yes, I run 100% e85! I am about to attach pics of what my pump looked like after 1500+ miles without a cleaning, i just cleaned the spill valve every other week just cause I didn't want pressure to drop....and I have had my pressure drop a lot when I was running t6, had to clean every week since fp would drop to 50 psi just cruising and at WOT, not fun when it happens lol......I switched to vr1 oil and no problems yet.


And after Friday, I will not clean anything till fp drops, since I'm going to the drag strip on Friday.

[Enki]

Is any of that sticky like glue? If not, your not going to have spill valve issues.

[Voltwings]

A buddy and i were talking about this the other day and threw out the idea that perhaps different internals are effected differently? It seems the majority of people are running Autotechs / KMD's but theres still the CP-E and others out there, there have to be other variables than simply the motor oil you're using... I am by no means an expert on this subject nor running high amounts of e85, just found it ironic we were just on this subject the other day and thought id throw it out there.

[mazdafreak]

Originally Posted by Enki Is any of that sticky like glue? If not, your not going to have spill valve issues.

Umm, tell u the truth, I don't remember all that much, been a lil while, plus I switched back to 93 for awhile and seafoamed the tank....but from what I recall, it wasn't super sticky, just a tad bit tho.

Originally Posted by Voltwings A buddy and i were talking about this the other day and threw out the idea that perhaps different internals are effected differently? It seems the majority of people are running Autotechs / KMD's but theres still the CP-E and others out there, there have to be other variables than simply the motor oil you're using... I am by no means an expert on this subject nor running high amounts of e85, just found it ironic we were just on this subject the other day and thought id throw it out there.

Yeah, I wondered the same, I run the cpe pump and haven't had as many problems as some have, idk what different things cpe uses or what, but idk.....but I also don't think I have been running it as long as some...I'm probably round 7000+ miles on 100% 85.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by mazdafreak Yeah, I wondered the same, I run the cpe pump and haven't had as many problems as some have, idk what different things cpe uses or what, but idk.....but I also don't think I have been running it as long as some...I'm probably round 7000+ miles on 100% 85.

im using the Cp-E as well, was wondering if people having the issues had autotechs because i know the CP-E has a larger spring and plunger after doing a few installs with autotechs???

[mazdafreak]

Originally Posted by Voltwings im using the Cp-E as well, was wondering if people having the issues had autotechs because i know the CP-E has a larger spring and plunger after doing a few installs with autotechs???

Exactly what I saw....its a 20mm to take the cpe internals out....and 18 all for autotech.....hmmm, I guess something to factor in?

[dooderek]

has the idea of a fuel cooler ever been brought up?

[Enki]

Yes, and the best way would actually be tigs on the pump most likely, however, that would only temporarily reduce temps, as there's hot head oil splashing the pump constantly.

As for fuel cooling, the best way would be to tap into the rail return line and split a separate line off that as an actual return line for a return style fuel system (taking the regulator out of the fuel pump basket for an external one probably...Maybe.

Either way, it's going to be a lot of custom work, and not what this thread is about.

[MSP6]

Enki you mentioned the residue left by the T6 when boiled along with the E85. With mazdafreak having some success with his VR1, have you considered smaller scale boil offs with multiple grades/brands etc of oil? Then if you did find a winner, or considerably better performer we could figure out whats different between them. Just a thought though I'm sure it's been covered or mused over already I'm probably just not seeing it.

[Enki]

The t6 testing resulted in fire.
While I *could* continue testing like that, the temps needed to duplicate the result with t6 will probably result in more boiling fuel fires.

[mazdafreak]

I am replacing my itfp with the new 265 pump on hopefully Thursday.....So ill have pics up of what the filter looks like!

[khopwood77]

Well I'll chime in with my experience thus far on 100% e85. My 2010 has about 38k miles of mainly highway commutes to work. I have been on e85 for 25k miles and haven't cleaned the spill valve for many months (at least 5). I have been using moble1 since the first oil change.

After the initial switch to 100% from partial mixes, I had the normal issues that all the others mentioned. Cleaning my pump and spill valve would return my pressure to normal levels. I didn't mind going through this hassle as my car would remind me when its time to clean with low fuel pressure and little to no pressure on startup.

Fast forward to ptp rail valve... I haven't had a single issue since I changed it out months ago. My stock rail valve was leaky and the car had only 15k miles on it. I don't know if it was a factory defect because I never ran pressures over 1700. Now with the ptp rail valve I have been commanding much higher pressures and still my spill has yet to let me know it needs to be cleaned.




Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[Enki]

What mobile 1, specifically?

[khopwood77]

Originally Posted by Enki What mobile 1, specifically?

Mobil 1 5W-30 full synthetic

[dot584]

Is there any way having higher commanded pressure with the upgraged valve could keep the black from sticking on the internals? Or could the ptp valve be of a better design that doesn't stick?

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

[khopwood77]

Originally Posted by dot584 Is there any way having higher commanded pressure with the upgraged valve could keep the black from sticking on the internals? Or could the ptp valve be of a better design that doesn't stick? Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

I'm running a ptp rail valve not a ptp spill valve. I'm still using the factory pump and spill valve with the addition of KMD internals.

I don't think higher pressure has anything to do with it. I'm still using close to factory values in the lower load ranges.

Although I do spend most of my driving at highway speeds over 1k psi on my 35 mile trip to work.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by dot584 Is there any way having higher commanded pressure with the upgraged valve could keep the black from sticking on the internals? Or could the ptp valve be of a better design that doesn't stick?

Originally Posted by khopwood77 I'm running a ptp rail valve not a ptp spill valve. I'm still using the factory pump and spill valve with the addition of KMD internals. I don't think higher pressure has anything to do with it. I'm still using close to factory values in the lower load ranges. Although I do spend most of my driving at highway speeds over 1k psi on my 35 mile trip to work.

1. My idle pressure has been bumped to 750 from the 4xx that stock/OTS use and is linearly scaled past that, so that wouldn't apply here.

2. The rail valves only open when pressure is exceeded (in case of stock, 1850 if memory serves).

Also, this isn't just about the spill valve, but also pertains to the internals getting caked with black death (vs sticky death on the spill valve). If you don't get one, it is likely that you won't get the other either; it also stands to reason that the type of internals you use matters little as well, unless there's some sort of clearance issues which prevent/allow oil into the retaining nut that otherwise wouldn't (but this is extremely unlikely as if there's enough room for movement, there's enough room for oil to leak by).

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

RP 10-30, 5k miles, no issues.

RT6 5-40, 4.5k miles, cleaned once a month

VR1 10-30, 1.5k, no issues

In that order. Mileage is on the ish.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by GLORIFIEDBOZO RT6 5-40, 4.5k miles, cleaned once a month

@GLORIFIEDBOZO:
Couple questions for you:

1. Whole pump teardown once a month, or just spill valve?

2. Sticky and black deaths?

Also, this thread is beginning to take shape nicely. Need more input though; perhaps I'll try VR1 again now that I understand exactly what's going on with my oil pressure gauge.

[radioflyer]

Subbed, running 50 / 50 for the record.

[Enki]

2 things:

Originally Posted by radioflyer Subbed

Top of page, thread tools -> subscribe. Don't need to post.

Originally Posted by radioflyer running 50 / 50

This thread is for much higher than 50/50 concentrations of E.

Okay, back on topic.

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Originally Posted by Enki @GLORIFIEDBOZO: Couple questions for you: 1. Whole pump teardown once a month, or just spill valve? 2. Sticky and black deaths? Also, this thread is beginning to take shape nicely. Need more input though; perhaps I'll try VR1 again now that I understand exactly what's going on with my oil pressure gauge.

Whole pump, sticky ass black gunk covering everything. However, I didn't lose fuel pressure often.

[Mchart]

Sounds like we just need to throw a pool together and have someone buy a quart of every oil we can imagine and do said test.

[MSP6]

Originally Posted by Enki The t6 testing resulted in fire. While I *could* continue testing like that, the temps needed to duplicate the result with t6 will probably result in more boiling fuel fires.

I was wondering about that lol. You're initial post on the testing made it sound so much smoother. Yeah don't do that, don't want to be breathing in that crap.

I'd imagine also that its less about the pressure and likely largely to do with the cooling of the mixture that is left inside the valve once the car is turned off and sitting.

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by Mchart Sounds like we just need to throw a pool together and have someone buy a quart of every oil we can imagine and do said test.

I'll boil the ethanol so James doesn't have to put his life on the line again haha.

[phate]

Originally Posted by MSP6 I was wondering about that lol. You're initial post on the testing made it sound so much smoother. Yeah don't do that, don't want to be breathing in that crap. I'd imagine also that its less about the pressure and likely largely to do with the cooling of the mixture that is left inside the valve once the car is turned off and sitting.

It's occurring whether the car is running or not. We have seen a number of instances where someone will run their tank to empty, then fill with E85. They drive 30-40 miles and suddenly it's a stuck spill valve, nasty crap everywhere.

I am more inclined to think it is the condition of the O-Ring which has the greatest effect on how often things need cleaned. Oil type may help, though.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Mchart Sounds like we just need to throw a pool together and have someone buy a quart of every oil we can imagine and do said test.

In for this if it is safe healthwise for Enki to do and he is willing / feels it will provide definitive results.

[MSP6]

Originally Posted by phate It's occurring whether the car is running or not. We have seen a number of instances where someone will run their tank to empty, then fill with E85. They drive 30-40 miles and suddenly it's a stuck spill valve, nasty crap everywhere. I am more inclined to think it is the condition of the O-Ring which has the greatest effect on how often things need cleaned. Oil type may help, though.

Well then my brownie brain is out of ideas lol so I'll stop cluttering the thread. Subbed for further info.

[Enki]

I don't mind doing it again, I'll just need to take extra precautions.

The best way for me to perform the tests on other oils is probably by having people ship me samples for testing (I don't actually need a whole lot; buying a full quart for this testing would be *extremely* wasteful).

I need to do some other research regarding this to figure out if the fuel ignited due to natural autoignition or if some boiled out and hit the glowing hotplate coil.

At any rate, let's keep this thread going.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by MSP6 I was wondering about that lol. You're initial post on the testing made it sound so much smoother. Yeah don't do that, don't want to be breathing in that crap. I'd imagine also that its less about the pressure and likely largely to do with the cooling of the mixture that is left inside the valve once the car is turned off and sitting.

It is likely more a function of pump temperature; during my testing, just after adding a few drops of oil, I boiled fuel for a good long while and there was no change. It wasn't until after I turned the heat up that I got a sticky result.

Originally Posted by 86azms3 I'll boil the ethanol so James doesn't have to put his life on the line again haha.

It's OK man; I have a hotplate and pan specifically for this purpose collecting dust in the garage. In fact, they are still sticky and need to be cleaned with lighter fluid.