Kings of Corn (HPFP + OIL)

[johnnyboy05gt]

Originally Posted by Enki Hell yeah, there's always room for analysis, and I'm sure we can locate a test car.

You know you have a test car right here in tucson.

Even if i go zzb or break anything i wont care

[udntknw]

Or two...

just tappa it in...

[Da6d]

I'm in for helping with this. I'll help with funding if necessary and test car awesomeness. Just let me know!

[johnnyboy05gt]

Originally Posted by udntknw Or two... just tappa it in...

I only have one. .. haha

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[Enki]

Well the thing about full E and stock turbo is that you won't blow the motor unless you hydrolock it; speaking from experience, of course.
@Da6d; where are you located?

[Da6d]

I'm in DFW, and I have a corn station 7 miles from the house.

Edit: I'll update my profile to show location.

[Enki]

Testing will probably be local for now, so that in case something goes sour I can intervene quickly and in person. After that, if any progress is made, testing will probably branch out a bit further.

[Da6d]

Well just keep me in mind. I'm going to start doing some research based off of the findings in here. I'd like to be able to help progress the research. If i find anything different I'll post it in here.

[littleloogy]

@Enki; you should have the cobalt SS pump by Wednesday next week. I'll keep my eye open for our HPFPs. I'll try to get some cost effective used cores that you can use for mod testing.

Blind people don’t see blackness, they see nothing.

[Constantin]

Originally Posted by littleloogy @Enki; you should have the cobalt SS pump by Wednesday next week. I'll keep my eye open for our HPFPs. I'll try to get some cost effective used cores that you can use for mod testing.

I have stock HPFP that I can donate for the cause @Enki; PM me your address, I'll find it and sent it to you.

[Enki]

Thanks guys, you're all awesome.

Honestly, I'd like to wait a little while before I start hoovering up peoples stock/replacement parts for long term manipulation...want to have an action plan discussed with the Kings before I give shit to my gunsmith for violation.

[Enki]

@littleloogy; pump arrived today, probably play with it some tomorrow/Sunday. Cursory glance: not too sure how to disassemble this thing...Gonna have to hunt around for some instructions, or worst case, cut it open.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Enki @littleloogy; pump arrived today, probably play with it some tomorrow/Sunday. Cursory glance: not too sure how to disassemble this thing...Gonna have to hunt around for some instructions, or worst case, cut it open.

I was wondering the same thing. I attempted to take it apart, but when I pulled out my 2' pipe wrench I realized it was best that I did not. Break it if you have to, Godspeed.

[udntknw]

Originally Posted by Enki @littleloogy; pump arrived today, probably play with it some tomorrow/Sunday. Cursory glance: not too sure how to disassemble this thing...Gonna have to hunt around for some instructions, or worst case, cut it open.

Bring it tomorrow night. @Enki;

just tappa it in...

[Enki]

Originally Posted by udntknw Bring it tomorrow night. @Enki; just tappa it in...

I will if I can get it apart.

[Enki]

UPDAET TIEM!

Pulled the pump apart, found some amazing information. GM was *extremely* smart about their design.

First off, the pump is laser welded shut and had to be cut open:

Cobalt SS HPFP rebuild pt 1 - YouTube

Cobalt SS HPFP rebuild pt 1 - YouTube

Cobalt SS HPFP rebuild pt 2 - YouTube

Cobalt SS HPFP rebuild pt 2 - YouTube

Second, their pulsation damper design is pretty awesome and seriously shrinks the size of the pump housing. They do a vented design so the pulsation damper puck (looks like the one in ours) gets pressure from both sides; I don't think there's a spring pack in it like ours has. I forgot to take a picture of this so I'll get it later tonight most likely so everyone can see what I'm talking about.

Third, their HPFP internal surface area is TINY. The internals face is about the size of our stock internals, give or take. I can mic them if anyone wants, but haven't done it yet.










Now for the interesting shit: Looks like they used poly valve seals as the base for their internals sealing system. Fucking genius:



On the right here is a standard valve seal; my pops has polys in his race car, so didn't use the standard ones, and is the one who identified the seal type/design:



And the inside area of the seal:





This is a wholly free floating design; I was able to manipulate the internals to a very high degree with that part of the pump removed. You can also see that the area around the internals is vented/circulated to keep it clean to a MUCH higher degree than in our cars.

So if anyone reading this has some engineering background and has access to CAD and the like, we need a new retaining nut that uses a poly valve seal instead of this o-ring bullshit.

[timjs]

Fucking sweet.

[mtosofsky]

So what you're saying is...this might be possible now?

[littleloogy]

I'll see if my brother can do it. He is an engineer, and uses a few different CAD programs. This may or may not be his cup of tea...

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

Originally Posted by mtosofsky So what you're saying is...this might be possible now?

Everything is possible until they are not...

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[Enki]

Yeah everything is possible until it fails to work.

[timjs]

With it welded together, how would those guys upgrade their pumps?

[Enki]

Honestly, I don't think they can...

[timjs]

Originally Posted by Enki Honestly, I don't think they can...

It makes you wonder. You said the internals are about the displacement of our stock ones, right?

[Enki]

Yeah, they are also 2 liter engines and probably have slightly longer stroke than ours do...I vaguely recall reading something about the cam HPFP lobes getting upgraded or something for more fuel.

[Easter Bunny]

The upgrade for them is a cam with an extra lobe for the hpfp. Does anyone know if there are drop in pumps available for them?

[littleloogy]

Yes, Bosch makes so much shit for their GM direct injection. They have a direct replacement on this page http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/conte.../html/2832.htm

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[littleloogy]

Sorry wrong link try this... http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/pdf/...umps/HDP_5.pdf


Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[speed_freak91]

Originally Posted by littleloogy I'll see if my brother can do it. He is an engineer, and uses a few different CAD programs. This may or may not be his cup of tea... Sent while cleaning my spill valve again... Everything is possible until they are not... Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

Bump for update...

[Bratschist]

So I just spent about 2 hours reading the while thread from begging to end. Prop to you guys. Awesome work. There was one question someone asked earlier, which sounded pretty plausible IMO, but hasn't been addressed. It was the kid with the rx8 and the question about reg oil. The idea of the oil burning up and not leaving gunky residuals on the HPFP sounds quite plausible to me. I am staring a tune to run e85. My tuner (TiGraySpeed6) told me about this thread when I asked about running 100% e. I would love to do it but he warned me about the Black Death. After I get tuned I'll try to test the reg gas with 100%, but I figured I could bring it up again to be answered. Unfortunately I can't see a reason why it wouldn't work, so please I ask oh wise ones, shed some light. Lol happy new year.


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[Enki]

The oil can't "burn up" in the pump; that would be an engine bay fire for sure. It has to dissolve and be carried away, but the design of the pump isn't really ideal for this.

The best way around this issue would be to have a retention system similar to what the Cobalts have with excellent sealing to keep the oil out of the fuel pump.

[Bratschist]

Great. Thanks for the insight. I was under the wrong understanding that the goo was caused by the synth oil not having the favorable properties that avoid the build up.


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[Enki]

The type/brand/mix/whatever of oil you use can reduce the effect of the buildup (as per my personal results in this thread) but the only way to fix it 100% is to prevent the oil from getting in there in the first place.

[Bratschist]

I'm with you. I saw that you tried numerous types of oil. How is your setup now? Still running 50/50? Should I experience the goo with that mix? We might be shooting for a 4 gallons of e per tank on my tune. I'm hoping more than that. But we'll see.


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[Enki]

You'll get buildup no matter what mix you run but at or below 50/50 is generally fine even on the most problematic oils.

I'm on e25 right now due to airflow (see my big turbo thread).

[Bratschist]

And if memory serves, you liked the RP better, right? I think that's what my tuner said too. Thanks for all the work man, the community appreciates. Keep up with the good work


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[Enki]

RP is more E tolerant. After this next change with RP, I'll be going back to Rotella T6. It's far, far less expensive and probably superior to the RP oil.

Also, on 50/50 I ran it for over a year with no issues so there shouldn't be any issues going back to it now that I'm on E26.

[mrmonk7663]

You will be fine at 50/50. I have been on 50/50 for almost 2 years, switched to 93 a tank or two, switched to 25 percent, and back to 50/50....always used T6 in my car.

[sidekick]

This may be a long shot, but do you think something like this would have ANY effect on this issue? I'm assuming not, but figured it might be worth mentioning.

BG Ethanol Fuel System Defender | BG Products, Inc.
@Enki;

[Enki]

BG Ethanol System Defender protects the fuel system from the harmful effects of ethanol. It keeps intake manifolds, intake ports, intake valves, and combustion chambers free of deposits caused by ethanol. When gasoline is blended with ethanol, it can wreak havoc on engines. Ethanol increases engine deposits, affects driveability, leads to corrosion, and eventually component failure. Deposit and corrosion formation cause engine efficiency and durability to plummet. BG Ethanol Fuel System Defender guards fuel systems from the damaging effects of ethanol gasoline. Added by a professional at every oil change, it protects intake manifolds, intake ports, intake valves, and combustion chambers from the damage caused by ethanol oxidation.

This is good wording for snake oil bullshit, nothing more.

I don't know how many people here have seen the inside of gasoline vs meth/eth race engines, but the combustion chamber and piston crown conditions would surprise you.

Edit:
Have a look at this: http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...=12892&start=0
Note that this guy ran the engine on gasoline for 6 months before switching to e85, or everything would be cleaner. Compare these images to teardowns from this very forum and you'll see a marked difference.

[sidekick]

Have you tried running Castrol Edge? We have 5w-30 diesel oil and 5w-40 for gas engines at the dealership I work at, so I can get it cheap. I'd rather run this, especially if rotella is the worst for running ethanol mixes.
@Enki;