Kings of Corn (HPFP + OIL)

[Bratschist]

I think it's cool that everyone is pitching in with ideas to solve the problem but if y'all read y'all will see that the problem is not the type/kind of oil, but the flawed HPFP. Which by the way, how is the inspection of the Chevy pump going guys? Any updates?


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[littleloogy]

@agr964; and I are brainstorming idea's. We are hoping to make either a direct bolt on replacement spill valve system or a way to mod it. We have a few concepts however, they are too premature to talk about at this time. We are working on it

Edit: our goal is to make the pump able to run 100% E85 without needing to clean the pump/spill valve.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by Bratschist I think it's cool that everyone is pitching in with ideas to solve the problem but if y'all read y'all will see that the problem is not the type/kind of oil, but the flawed HPFP. Which by the way, how is the inspection of the Chevy pump going guys? Any updates? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Where did I say anything about the oil fixing anything? I understand the pump itself is the issue, but @Enki; has tested quite a few different oils, some work better than others with E. I just wanted to see if he had tested that oil and whether it caused more or less issues with ethanol mixes. That is all.

[Enki]

Pretty much any oil works with mixes up to 50/50 guys. In fact, after this next oil change (which will be RP), I'll be going back to Rotella T6.

As for a pump mod that will resolve both deaths, we should be looking at something similar to what the Cobalts use that would completely prevent oil from entering the pump, not just the spill valve (which would be impossible anyways).

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by Enki Pretty much any oil works with mixes up to 50/50 guys. In fact, after this next oil change (which will be RP), I'll be going back to Rotella T6. As for a pump mod that will resolve both deaths, we should be looking at something similar to what the Cobalts use that would completely prevent oil from entering the pump, not just the spill valve (which would be impossible anyways).

Is it possible to even get the pump modded in a way to do so? Meaning cost wise?


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[Enki]

I don't see why a retaining nut couldn't be milled that would accomplish what we need, and it should be able to feasibly copy the Cobalt model.

[Bratschist]

Enki do you think it's possible we could get some developer here? For example, people from corksport, Streetunit, or CP-e. Maybe we could convince them to make it so we could buy it.


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[sidekick]

Originally Posted by Bratschist Enki do you think it's possible we could get some developer here? For example, people from corksport, Streetunit, or CP-e. Maybe we could convince them to make it so we could buy it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's probably unlikely, because the number of people who need/want to run 100% E85 is a small portion of the market. You will become injector limited much more quickly, so without aux fueling, it's not going to get you much vs running a 50/50 or lower mix.

[Enki]

Full corn is for people with either stock turbo or massive aux fueling (I ran out of fuel BT @ 10 PSI on full E85). The cost to design and produce the retaining nut in small batches isn't worth the meager return it would see for such a precision part (which, if even a little off, could destroy the engine, cams, vvt, etc).

We basically need a member with the software and engineering expertise to do the brain work, and another with a mill and some scraps to make a couple test setups to be delivered at cost of materials (time can be donated).

I really wish it would happen, but I don't realistically see it happening *soon.*

[littleloogy]

The reason I bring up the spill valve is that I believe that the sticky substance is in the fuel itself. (Gummy substance on SV)
I took a sample of E and let it dry in a bowl. The residue that was left in the bowl was sticky, just like what I found on my SV.

So regardless of if we cure black death or not, it is my belief that our Spill valves may still stick. Which still does not allow us to succeed in our ultimate goal. I could be wrong, but I still want to think about this as a two part problem until proven otherwise.


Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[Enki]

While I can agree that the spill valve is first to go out in the pump due to sticky, I don't agree that the cause is directly because of the e85 itself. When I did my testing, I boiled off several potfuls of e85 and all that was left was a yellowish oily substance which was likely a lubricant type additive that wasn't sticky. It wasn't until I added a LOT more heat and t6 that there was any sticky development, and even then, it was only sticky where oil had been; the part of the ceramic coated metal sample that came in contact with the bottom of the pan was not sticky, but was in contact with e85 at all times due to boiling.

That's my experience at any rate.

[mrmonk7663]

What about a coating that almost illiminates surface friction. They have this advanced coating that they promote for water and oil...to keep stuff clean and dry. For instance, you can coat a boot in it, walk in mud, and the mud falls off...it won't stick. Oil you can pour on it and the oil slides off the coated area, literally and goes to wherever is not coated. Near-Frictionless Carbon Coating - New Material is Slicker Than Teflon Read this when you get a chance. There have been more developments since this release.

[Enki]

Having the internals and spill needle coated with that could be beneficial, but I wonder how that would affect the internals with their ridiculous tight tolerances.

As a side note, I think the spill valve sticking could be completely fixed with a tiny bit of milling (on the part that you pry off that retains the spring and needle) and a teflon washer, since it's that surface that the needle sticks to when issues occur.

[mrmonk7663]

It should be like a piston coating...extremely thin...and it requires no machining after coating.

[littleloogy]

I finally have some time as i am getting into my slow season for my home business, so I posted a WTB ad for HPFP parts. Its time we start eliminating/ confirming all of these ideas. I will start with @Enki;'s ideas first. As I think the probability for success is higher.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[NCspecV81]

Originally Posted by littleloogy I finally have some time as i am getting into my slow season for my home business, so I posted a WTB ad for HPFP parts. Its time we start eliminating/ confirming all of these ideas. I will start with @Enki;'s ideas first. As I think the probability for success is higher. Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

I have a complete HPFP I can donate. I just want to sort out my low fuel pressure issues first and it's to whomever wants to fix this shii...stuff.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by NCspecV81 SHIT

Fixed that for you.

[littleloogy]

I hate people who use profanities. Fucking assholes

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[Enki]

Originally Posted by littleloogy I hate people who use profanities. Fucking assholes Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

I know right? Have to run around shitting up every thread with their indignant fucking bullshit.
Stupid fucking cunts.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by NCspecV81 I have a complete HPFP I can donate. I just want to sort out my low fuel pressure issues first and it's to whomever wants to fix this shii...stuff.

If you want to send it my way it would help get this project started.

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[NCspecV81]

Originally Posted by littleloogy If you want to send it my way it would help get this project started. Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk

I'll send it to whomever can get the job done

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by NCspecV81 I'll send it to whomever can get the job done

Make sure you don't need it in the future, because the pump may not ever work again.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[NCspecV81]

In deed. Not going to be sending it out until I can have my low pressure issue resolved with confidence.

[littleloogy]

Pumps are on order. I also messaged CPE to see if they had any old broken pumps laying around that we could use. I am excited to finally get to the next step. There is a solution, we just have to find the right one. I'm not a big fan of spending all this money, but oh well,

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[littleloogy]

A few of the pumps showed up, one of them had the spring mod like @Enki; did on the spill valve. Thought it was funny.

Had a member donate some pump parts as well at a meet, I'll be going to the machine shop when I get some time.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[himurax13]

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 What about a coating that almost illiminates surface friction. They have this advanced coating that they promote for water and oil...to keep stuff clean and dry. For instance, you can coat a boot in it, walk in mud, and the mud falls off...it won't stick. Oil you can pour on it and the oil slides off the coated area, literally and goes to wherever is not coated. Near-Frictionless Carbon Coating - New Material is Slicker Than Teflon Read this when you get a chance. There have been more developments since this release.

I wonder how much material this will add to the surface. Something like this coating would be beneficial to many engine parts but for our car, it would be great if it could be used on something like our intake valves.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by himurax13 I wonder how much material this will add to the surface. Something like this coating would be beneficial to many engine parts but for our car, it would be great if it could be used on something like our intake valves.

I doubt this stuff is made to handle extreme temperatures. It seems more like an everyday "don't ruin your shit" kind of thing. The fuel pump and intake valves will get very hot.

[littleloogy]

There has been a mod for the button valve on the bottom part of the the spill valve. It helps keep the coils of the spring from touching. That's all fine and dandy, but what about the top? How do we keep that damn needle from sticking??? Well I may have finally come up with a fix (trial of course).

The problem we are facing is when the needle gets gummy, it sticks to the collar preventing the button valve from closing causing pressure to not build. To solve this issue, I crimped the spring directly to the needle on the solenoid.

Picture illustrates spring securely attached to solenoid needle.

I then attached the spring to the needle and I am left with this.



Theoretically speaking...
As the solenoid energizes it will have enough power to pull the needle up, and when it is not energized it will push it back down regardless of gummy residue.

I installed this in my pump, and it holds pressure fine. I will see when or if my valve starts to stick.

Thoughts or Comments?



Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[Mazdazilla6]

Simple yet effective. I look forward to the results, here's to hoping we will have a future on full e.

[Enki]

That actually could work, depending on the power of the solenoid (which should be just fine, actually, considering the strength of the spring).

Good thinking.

[abiezerf]

That would be insane if something so simple works. I would definitely like to be signed up for this if it works.

[littleloogy]

This is not intended to make our cars able to run full E long term. It is intended to eliminate sudden fuel drop so we don't have to limp home. I am still working on a fuel pump seal mod to keep oil out in the first place.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[vtekken]

Originally Posted by littleloogy This is not intended to make our cars able to run full E long term. It is intended to eliminate sudden fuel drop so we don't have to limp home. I am still working on a fuel pump seal mod to keep oil out in the first place. Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

Sir, I will buy you the biggest glass of beer you have ever seen if you figure this out. I want to run full E without issues.

[Enki]

Afterthought: you really should only have to affix the needle to the spring, since that shit is gonna get yanked by magnetic forces anyways.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by vtekken Sir, I will buy you the biggest glass of beer you have ever seen if you figure this out. I want to run full E without issues.

I have it figured out... Data is too premature to release at this point though.

Sent while cleaning my spill valve again...

[timjs]

[littleloogy]

Finally Got the nerve to do a few WOT pulls. I really hate doing stupid shit with my daily driver, but oh well. Luckily Logs turned out to be better then I was expecting. Pressure during WOT stayed between the range of 1760 & 1830psi. Normally I would see cells dip into the 1600's, So this is a good change.
Unfortunately, I must note that my Idle PSI has suffered with this upper spring MOD. Target idle fuel pressure is 750PSI, I am only hitting High 600's. However, as soon as i tap the fuel pressure is back on track. I will do a idle adjustment and see if that cures the issue.

[86AmishMs3]

You really don't need to target higher fuel pressure at idle...imo.

[Mazdazilla6]

Yea 750 seems very high. I believe my idle fp is around 400-500.

[Enki]

I target high pressure at idle mostly as a throwback to when I was full e, to help keep pulse width down and promote better atomization.