Kings of Corn (HPFP + OIL)

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Back to the original topic... I would gum up my spill valve in ~50 miles when trying to run 7.5-8 gal/tank E85 (~E50) when using Walmart SuperTech 5w-30 synthetic. I could reduce the E85 concentration to 6-7 gal/tank and clean the spill valve in place enough to control again. This was repeatable as it checked it 2-3 times. I have never had any issues with this oil at E20-E40 during the past 1.5 years.

My daily cld12pk2go tidbit is your use of Walmart Supertech. Obviously, it is working out well for you, but I'm interested to hear if you have had a UOA done.

Note to self: stock pcv system and Walmart Supertech = win.

@atvfreek; would have an interest in this as well.

[silvapain]

I have determined that my spill valve is much more likely to stick when running the engine at high RPM and low load, e.g. when running up to redline slowly in second gear to do a MAF calibration log, or if revving the engine in neutral. This has led me to theorize that the valve sticking is due to fluid coming back into the valve from the pump due to high pump cycling and low fuel flow demand. It brings oil seeping past the seals on the pump piston with it that gum up in the spill valve.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 My daily cld12pk2go tidbit is your use of Walmart Supertech. Obviously, it is working out well for you, but I'm interested to hear if you have had a UOA done. Note to self: stock pcv system and Walmart Supertech = win. @atvfreek; would have an interest in this as well.

I have been running ST5w-30 synthetic since ~2k miles and changing at 5k intervals after changing the first at 5k on the odo (so all subsequent oil changes would be at 10k, 15k, 20k, etc).

I haven't done an UOA; however, I just received two Blackstone kits and I plan to test my current oil at 4k, and then to switch to Rotella T6 (which will also be checked at 4k).

Going to T6 will increase my operating temp viscosity by ~50%. Also since I am making crazy power and pushing my turbo well off the compressor map, I figured it would probably be smart to not push the oil change frequency like I was still running stockish power levels.

I currently have 82k miles (next oil change at 84k).

[Enki]

Originally Posted by silvapain I have determined that my spill valve is much more likely to stick when running the engine at high RPM and low load, e.g. when running up to redline slowly in second gear to do a MAF calibration log, or if revving the engine in neutral. This has led me to theorize that the valve sticking is due to fluid coming back into the valve from the pump due to high pump cycling and low fuel flow demand. It brings oil seeping past the seals on the pump piston with it that gum up in the spill valve.

Yes yes, but how else am I going to get ricers to bite and ultimately commit suicide after they lose?

[Enki]

So I went back to full e85 after having been on 50/50 and VR1 for over a month, and not even 20 miles in the spill valve stuck. Fortunately, the internals are still holding pressure, but I fear that there might be some black death sneaking around in there as it took a couple of cycles for the car to build any pressure. I'm on about a 25% mix right now (as I had enough foresight to only put 5 gallons of pure in, and filled up a 5 gallon can with 91) and I'm probably going to run that down before I go back to 50/50 or maybe even 3 gallon in preparation for the S3.

It very well could be that the e85 I get is tainted with some kind of additive that just properly fucks oil, I dunno.

Thought you all might like to know.

[mazdafreak]

You should try kendell racing oil next ((the actual full race oil)), i think thats what it is, buddy uses it on his talon ((9sec talon))....I hear its 85 compaitable. Its still too cold for me to test here in IL. And when it was colder out my spill valve stuck all the time on 100%.

[silvapain]

That's disappointing @Enki;.

Have you tried using an oil that is Dexos 1 compliant yet?

[Enki]

Not yet; not sure I can handle another failure without cutting myself.

[Enki]

Don't really want to see this die. Anyone have any updates?
@silvapain; @metallemur; @mazdafreak; @GLORIFIEDBOZO; @khopwood77;

Edit:
I'm still rocking 50/50 and hauling much ass doing so, but long for the days of smooth running and lolrape that is full e.

[mazdafreak]

No updates, car is getting the built motor put together right now..... I rly dont want to deal with cleaning the pump anymore, and didnt want to mix anything either. Planned on running 100% Racegas.


Not sure what im gonna do, wish we had a fix for the pump. Or at least last longer than a week and not be worried if ur spill valve will stick lol.


Should try diesel oil ((85 compatible?))

[silvapain]

I'm on 93 pump gas right now, until I purchase a fif port system and install it. I'm running out of fuel on my setup as it is with just pump gas.

[Enki]

Sounds like most have forsaken the corn in favor of big turbos.

[86AmishMs3]

I will never forsake the corn. Plus with shitty AZ gas and the heat we get...there is little choice if one wants to run aggressive.

[Enki]

I meant full corn. Like your avatar's erection.

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by Enki I meant full corn. Like your avatar's erection.

Wish I could, don't have the moniez for port injection so yeah I'm limited.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 Wish I could, don't have the moniez for port injection so yeah I'm limited.

I'd be interested to see what a pure e car can make with the fuel system maxed out. Fastest stock boost car on the planet?

[stlskater92]

subbed

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by Enki I'd be interested to see what a pure e car can make with the fuel system maxed out. Fastest stock boost car on the planet?

I think it's just almost everybody is fine with 80% of the benefits with 20% of the work. 80/20 rule.

[speeding3]

This is a thread I wrote when I had my old Mitsubishi . injectors used to get the black death, this was when I was running 100% E85.

"Alright, I finished my analysis of this stuff, and my finding is very unexpected. I think it will probably surprise everyone else as well. This doesn't appear to be forming because ethanol is "such a good solvent" but because ethanol is a poor solvent. I suppose it should have been obvious when others said that it "washes right off with gasoline". Why would something that ethanol is selectively dissolving wash off with gasoline? If this were something in rubber or from our fuel tanks, wouldn't that imply that gasoline would dissolve it even more readily than E85?

Alright, so what is this stuff? It is a appears to be a very large petroleum based hydrocarbon, similar to Vaseline. There isn't a single hetero-atom in the molecule (ie, the entire molecule is comprised of hydrogens and carbons), but the molecule is very large. It is also completely aliphatic (ie, only single bonds in the structure - no double or triple bonds). Where did it come from? I can only think of two different sources it could be coming from. It is either something that is mixed in with the rubber hoses that is meant to dissolve away in the gasoline, or it is a trace impurity in the 15% gasoline that is in E85 that wasn't separated during the fractional distillation process. Because it is such a large molecule, it wouldn't be very soluble in ethanol and could easily crash out of solution at the injector."

"Well, here is what I did just so everyone is clear. I filled a 40mL vial with E85 and blew it dry with nitrogen gas and mild heating (about 150*F). After there was no fuel left, I placed it under high vacuum to remove any remaining volatiles for about an hour. I was left with a clear sticky residue that smelled bad - like nasty frying oil. I dissolved this sample in the NMR solvent and analyzed it and it IS the same goo that was on the injector. There was smaller amounts of some other stuff in it as well, but the same peaks I saw in the black goo were in this residue. The black goo IS coming from the E85. It isn't naturally black, though. I suspect it just has soot mixed in with it that is giving it the color. Or trace amounts of oil, carbon, etc

I beleive Its caused from some additive they put in E85, some areas have it some dont, but its when the E atomizes out of the end of the injector some of the additive stays behind as this black goo / tar like substance. This may help explain why some of us get the black sticky death, and some don't.

[sidekick]

That's some really good info, thanks for posting that. So why wouldn't additives be able to break this stuff down like gasoline?

[speeding3]

The problems occur when gasoline additives are used in E85 shouldn't be surprising since these additives were never formulated for use in E85

gasoline contains detergent additives to keep critical engine parts clean. Depending on your location. Some e85 contains more or less of these additives. Which may help explain why some get black sticky death and some don't

What is worse, many existing gasoline additives are not fully compatible with E85. While they may appear to mix well with high-level alcohol fuels, the additive may not be completely soluble and could fall out of solution or become trapped on fuel filters, injectors, pump etc.

Modern gasoline additives are formulated to prevent this problem in normal gasoline.

[Constantin]

Originally Posted by speeding3 Depending on your location. Some e85 contains more or less of these additives. Which may help explain why some get black sticky death and some don't

If I'm not mistaken, everybody who ran 100% E85 did have "black death"....Some may be not as often as others...

In any case, you don't think engine oil can be the cause at all?

[speeding3]

I'm sure that the oil plays a factor in the black death. because the E85 is a terrible solvent, the oil gets into the pump and sits after shutdown, and adds to the nasty residue that the additives in the E85 leave, Explains why it is black/brown.

Remember my car was SP not DI so some of the components were different. The only place I experienced Black Death was on the injectors. It's just some food for thought. their are a lot of variables that are involved with E85, location percentage of additives in e85 and gasoline etc. and I'm sure we may never find a completely viable solution on preventing Black Death other than regular cleanings. Even flex fuel vehicles suffer from Black Death.

[Enki]

[QUOTE=speeding3;2136857]Words/QUOTE]

I thought this looked familiar.
E85 Discussion - HPFP lubrication and Flow issues

Edit:
So you are this "thiazole" guy from codsm? Still live in Texas?
http://www.codsm.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3965
http://codsm.org/forums/showpost.php?p=29606


Side note: The single nastiest pump I've ever seen came off a CX7 and only ever ran gasoline. Black death infested that pump and I couldn't get all of it out. In fact, it was so nasty I had to pry the internals out of the pump. No joke.

[speeding3]

[quote=Enki;2137282]

Originally Posted by speeding3 Words/QUOTE] I thought this looked familiar. E85 Discussion - HPFP lubrication and Flow issues Edit: So you are this "thiazole" guy from codsm? Still live in Texas? E85 and injectors - Colorado DSM Club Forums Colorado DSM Club Forums - View Single Post - E85 and injectors Side note: The single nastiest pump I've ever seen came off a CX7 and only ever ran gasoline. Black death infested that pump and I couldn't get all of it out. In fact, it was so nasty I had to pry the internals out of the pump. No joke.

No I was on the VR4 forums. That post has been copied and pasted on forums all over the web lol. Here is some more good reading and was a reply to my original post.


Are you getting your e85 from a station that sells premix, or a blender pump? (one that mixes ethanol with gas from the main station tanks)? What you might be encountering is due to the fact that premixed e85 is often mixed using very low grade gasoline (85 octane or lower - the ethanol largely makes up for it). It's probably sourced from the small amount of gas that is directly extracted from low grade crude oil or natural gas production, as opposed to the majority of gasoline which is processed in some way or another to obtain higher octane mixtures. A number of different processes are used - cracking, alkylation, reforming, etc which all produce slightly different mixtures that will pass the same "octane" rating tests.

What we think of as "gasoline" is really an extremely variable mix of several dozen different liquid hydrocarbons of different types that can pass the combustion and octane tests which allow it to be sold at the pump. (LPG is a similar product). The only real common feature of this mix is that the hydrocarbons all boil around the same (gasoline) temperature when separated from components with higher or lower boiling temperatures during distillation. Before it goes to the pump, it is modified via additives (detergents, ethanol, MTBE, etc) in order to bring it up to various standards.

The feedstock (crude oil) that is used also produces very different mixtures depending on where it came from. "light sweet crude" tends to produce more gasoline with higher octane and light hydrocarbons, where "heavy crude" and "tar sands crude" tend to produce heavier hydrocarbons, and the gasoline that results can contain a lot of heavier tars and waxes. The gasoline from the latter tends to be anywhere from 60-80 octane, and is usually processed in some way to produce consumer gasoline.

E85 blends can be made using cheaper, less processed gasoline when it is available, which leads to many of the problems you are encountering. This is often done to offset the high cost of ethanol, which is not only fairly expensive to produce, but cannot be transported via pipelines because it attracts water, which then contaminates other petroleum products that are also transported through the same pipeline (this is done by inserting a "plug" in between batches of fuel, which keeps the fuels separated). In some cases, lower grades of gasoline are actually required in order to allow the fuel to vaporize more easily, since ethanol does not, especially in colder parts of the country. Recall that the opposite is true - higher octane gasoline vaporizes and burns less easily.

Compounding the problem is that many of the normal gasoline detergents (that prevent the tar buildup that you are seeing) are not compatible with ethanol, and also in ethanol blends, only the gasoline portion contains the EPA required minimum additive levels. (A sidenote - the main difference between cheap gas stations and "top tier" stations that tend to be more expensive is not that the gasoline itself is any different, but that the levels of additives are higher, mainly detergents)

It's such a problem that professional race teams that have switched to e85 have had to source their own blends from manufacturers, which can be blended from a combination of high grade (low water content) ethanol mixed with race gas - the result is much higher quality than the E85 we can get at the pump.

If you have a lot of time, here's a DoE primer on Ethanol fuels: Ethanol

A couple of recommendations if you are having this problem with E85:
1) If your car is still dual-tune, run a tank of 100% gasoline from a "Top Tier" station every now and then (Chevron is my preferred, but there are several. Some independent stations are also certified:Top Tier Stations - You'll probably want premium, but detergent content is unrelated to octane rating)
2) Find a bottle of E85 compatible detergent additive - Chevron's "Techron" is available at many auto parts stores in a bottle. "Seafoam" makes a gas tank additive that is E85 compatible - not to be confused with the popular "spray" product.


After doing looking around a bit at some more DoE and ethanol industry literature, the consensus seems to be that the goo is caused by not just the factors I mentioned above no detergents in the ethanol portion of the blend, and lower quality gasoline with a lot of heavy "gum" hydrocarbons, but also a high level of corrosion inhibitors.

The best bet is probably still to use an appropriate detergent additive, but don't use more than "recommended" by the additive manufacturer, as too much detergent won't dissolve properly in the ethanol, and might cause other problems.

I think the actual ethanol content of the fuel doesn't really matter - it's only dependent on the actual additive.

Here's an excerpt from a whitepaper by the RFA (Renewable Fuels Association)

Detergents/Deposit Control Additives: Recent studies have shown that E85 may, in some
cases, lead to development of fuel injector and/or intake valve deposits. Preliminary work
indicates that this may be a result of no detergents in the ethanol portion of the blend in
combination with high levels of corrosion inhibitor. This can be addressed through the addition
of detergents/deposit control additives. If an additive is used, the blender must rely on
information from the additive manufacturer. In addition to effectiveness, it should be confirmed
that any additive selected will remain soluble in varying blend levels of gasoline and ethanol, and
that the additive meets the “no harm” criteria, meaning it will not interact with other gasoline
additives present in a manner that would cause problems or reduce the effectiveness of other
additives. Common gasoline additives may not be compatible with E85. The recommended treat
rate of any additive should not be exceeded.

[mrmonk7663]

So what we need is to ditch gasoline all together, and find the proper additive for 100 percent E85...this will require someone who doesn't mind cleaning their spill valve all the time until the right additive is found

[mazdafreak]

What about buying drums of E85? Instead of going to a pump. Id be down to test this shit once my motor is broken in.



c85
VP Drag Racing Fuels

[speeding3]

Originally Posted by mazdafreak What about buying drums of E85? Instead of going to a pump. Id be down to test this shit once my motor is broken in. c85 VP Drag Racing Fuels

VP C85 is really good but ur going to pay 50$ for 5 gallons. I pay 17 for 5 gallons of pump E85. Most of us on here don't have pockets that deep to pay 100+ on a fill up lol.

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by mazdafreak What about buying drums of E85? Instead of going to a pump. Id be down to test this shit once my motor is broken in. c85 VP Drag Racing Fuels

Don't mean to go off topic but C85 from VP is some good stuff. Albeit expensive, I tuned a fella who didn't have e85 anywhere near him and 2.5 gallons of that stuff goes a LONG way. More so than pump E85 I would have to say. Might even use the entire 5 gallon drum for track use.

My friend purchased a 55 gallon drum of E98 for his race car so I have dibs on some of it. Been playing with that recently.

[mazdafreak]

Originally Posted by speeding3 VP C85 is really good but ur going to pay 50$ for 5 gallons. I pay 17 for 5 gallons of pump E85. Most of us on here don't have pockets that deep to pay 100+ on a fill up lol.

If it solves my black death problems I wouldn't care at all how much.... $470 for 54 gallons is almost $9 a gallon, which is about the same as racegas at the pumps ((which I was going to use)).

Plus I dont daily my car, only used for like weekends or a random cruise to work.

Originally Posted by ms3blackmica Don't mean to go off topic but C85 from VP is some good stuff. Albeit expensive, I tuned a fella who didn't have e85 anywhere near him and 2.5 gallons of that stuff goes a LONG way. More so than pump E85 I would have to say. Might even use the entire 5 gallon drum for track use. My friend purchased a 55 gallon drum of E98 for his race car so I have dibs on some of it. Been playing with that recently.

I have e85 everywhere in IL, suburbs by my house have 2 right down the block from me..... but if this stuff helps with black death im down to order and just try it out. It says 4% hp increase over pumps, but im sure with stock turbo u wont find gains, mine has been maxed out on 100% E. ~25lbs-332whp.




What does @phate; @silvapain; think about c85, think it will help at all with black death? I could order a 30gallon drum, good for 2 full tanks and see what happens.

[ms3blackmica]

I have no idea how it reacts in regards to the "black death". I would need to run it in higher concentrations and based off the price, I will never do that.

Just wanted to mention that it is a really good fuel.

[Enki]

Again, this might be resolvable simply by keeping the pump cooler. It's possible that some o-ringed thermal gaskets or a return style fuel system could resolve the issue entirely.

[dot584]

Is anyone working on a return style setup still?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

[silvapain]

I don't know why you'd want to go through the hassle and cost of purchasing that expensive fuel by the drum, when mixing pump gas and E85 at the station is proven to work and be more cost-effective and less work. The performance gains on full E85 are minimal.

That isn't to say that I'd stay E50 if we figure out a way to safely run full E85. Just that I'm not too upset with our current option.

[ms3blackmica]

It is very expensive, I agree 100%.

I've been throwing in a few gallons of E98 from my buddies stash.

It's free so why not

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by silvapain I don't know why you'd want to go through the hassle and cost of purchasing that expensive fuel by the drum, when mixing pump gas and E85 at the station is proven to work and be more cost-effective and less work. The performance gains on full E85 are minimal. That isn't to say that I'd stay E50 if we figure out a way to safely run full E85. Just that I'm not too upset with our current option.

I agree that there isn't much reason to try to go full E85...

I have pretty much settled in around 5-5.5 gal E85 per tank. My turbo is maxed out and the difference in airflow capability summer/winter is pretty much offset by the E70/E85 switch such that my IDC stay in the low-mid 90's...

[Enki]

I disagree that there isn't any reason to go full e85. I mean, the fuel carries with it its own oxygen, which makes it like getting a small shot of nitrous on full e.

I had to go from full E with only an intake to bigger intake, intercooler and turboback to reach the same levels of power I was making on full e with only 50/50. Is there a point on the big turbo cars? No, I'll agree there isn't there, but on airflow limited cars at altitude, I do believe there is a reason to go full e.

Hopefully, one day, I'll be able to prove it.

[speeding3]

I just spoke to a rep at VP that dropped by my job. we buy a couple 100 gallons a month of the leaded VP. He said and I quote "VP C85 is nothing more than re-packaged pump E85 in a fancy can, If you want a better fuel try the VP101" so I guess the C85 is a no go as well.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by speeding3 I just spoke to a rep at VP that dropped by my job. we buy a couple 100 gallons a month of the leaded VP. He said and I quote "VP C85 is nothing more than re-packaged pump E85 in a fancy can, If you want a better fuel try the VP101" so I guess the C85 is a no go as well.

It is still probably a more consistent mix, if nothing else. Lol.

[mazdafreak]

So what would it take to have a return style fuel system put in....I would love to cure the black death so i can run 100% E85.