Kings of Corn (HPFP + OIL)

[El_Diablo]

Originally Posted by speeding3 I wonder if maybe we can run some kind of inline filter, not that shity one in the tank, like a inline 70-140 micron stainless mesh filter pre hpfp, and after the in tank pump. I think some of this may be from the station tanks. It would be easy enough to install an in line filter and it may work. I mean the Black Death effects every pump, but I'm wondering if you can filter the shit out of it, then maybe you can significantly reduce the amount of deposits.

READ!

Its a chemical makeup within the ethanol content. There is no getting around it unless we can prevent the heat buildup of our pumps. Heating ethanol is what seems to cause the issue and leave the sticky substance.

The only other way around it is to find the exact makeup and try to draw it out of suspension or try and change its makeup with a chemical additive but I highly doubt this would be effective & over time it could cause greater issues.

[JgamB]

There are some vendors that offer appropriate detergents for the 15-30% gasoline content to retain their lubricity and remain in suspension, but they're cost prohibitive, and until it's a federal mandate, odds are we'll have to put up with the wrong additives being added to the fuel... because it's cheaper to use what you've already got.

E85 would need to be 30% cheaper than 87 oct for mass market adoption and more scrutiny, and right now it's only a 25¢/gal price gap. There's little reason to use it unless you're a hippy or a tuner.

[GODspeed7]

Price gap in Chicago is like $1.17


Sent from my iBro 5 using tapatalk, Bro!

[JgamB]

Yeah, that makes sense. You're nearer to the corn belt for tanker delivery and probably have higher fuel costs in general.

87 oct here is just over 3 bucks, corn is 2.79.

[dot584]

Just thought of this, has anyone tried cooling the pump with ducting from the front of the car like brake ducting?

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[El_Diablo]

Last time I got E it was actually MORE expensive... she claimed they only change the price every few months

[GODspeed7]

Originally Posted by dot584 Just thought of this, has anyone tried cooling the pump with ducting from the front of the car like brake ducting? Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

That wouldn't solve the problem. Especially when the car is shut off the heat from the engine seems to boil the fuel inside the pump.


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[JgamB]

Originally Posted by GODspeed7 That wouldn't solve the problem. Especially when the car is shut off the heat from the engine seems to boil the fuel inside the pump.

Yep, every time we Nator swap internals the car is still percolating and spitting from the heat, well after it's shut off. Maybe some kind of Peltier device, but it would probably end up getting stupid expensive and/or complex - just run 25-40% and call it a day imo.

[El_Diablo]

A Peltier with a timer circuit & decent heat sink could potentially help.

[dot584]

Well if the ducting was enough to keep the pump from ever getting that hot then maybe it could help. Might not solve it all together. A heat sink with ducting blowing directly onto it would probably be pretty effective.

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[El_Diablo]

Heat soak....... ducting isn't gonna help with that in any way.

[speeding3]

Originally Posted by El_Diablo READ! Its a chemical makeup within the ethanol content. There is no getting around it unless we can prevent the heat buildup of our pumps. Heating ethanol is what seems to cause the issue and leave the sticky substance. The only other way around it is to find the exact makeup and try to draw it out of suspension or try and change its makeup with a chemical additive but I highly doubt this would be effective & over time it could cause greater issues.

Bro I did read why don't you go back a few pages and you can READ. I wrote a 3 page analysis on the makeup of e85 and did my own independent testing and analysis of the makeup o the Black Death. And the conclusion that I came to was that the Black Death came from the additives that are in the 15% of gas in e85 being that they were never formulated for use in e85. Basically the additives fall out of solution. And also because the 15% of gas is so low grade 83octane or so.

BUT I also beleived that certain stations played a effect exp older stations that used old inground tanks particularly diesel tanks and retrofitted them for e85, so they didnt have to pay the money to put new tanks in. Why don't you go take a look at the V8 guys that have ther fuel filters clog up all the time from some mysterious black shit in the fuel. I figured if we could possibly filter out some of the nastiness of the fuel itself it may help. And actually ran a intank fuel pump rated for use in alchol.

[El_Diablo]

Ehh, my bad, I didn't realise you had posted that. lol

Either way, I don't think you're going to be able to filter it out.

[Jarods7920]

So what if you were to run e98? Does anyone thing that could possibly solve the issue?

[Dano]

This is how I have been able to filter out the black death.

just need to refine it into a package for in-line use

[El_Diablo]

Originally Posted by Dano This is how I have been able to filter out the black death. just need to refine it into a package for in-line use

WTF........

[Dano]

haha

I just thought that would fit in with the usefulness of some recent posts in here.

[Enki]

"OMG I READ YOU FAGGOT"

No, you didn't. If you did, you'd know that @phate; already had an inline fuel filter just before the hpfp and when he cut it open it looked like it was brand new.

In other news, and aside from all the seemingly popular bullshit thats being posted in here lately, I've done two things:

1. I've contacted APR to see about getting the center seal they use per @Haltech;'s post on page 2 and was told that they don't sell parts seperately, so I'd have to either buy a pump or internals (and if memory serves, they won't sell disi-mzr internals to anyone but CP-E).
2. I've purchased some Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 Full Synthetic for my next oil change. This is important because it's a Dexos 1 compliant oil, and is exactly the same as and sold by Shell directly in Europe as "Shell Helix Ultra;" a name that might mean something to some of you.

There is a third thing that I'm considering right now: having my gunsmith mill a retaining nut to accept a thick PTFE bushing/scraper between the collar and retaining nut (this would replace the stock plastic scraper/o-ring wholesale).

If milled properly, the PTFE scraper (set in RTV for sealing) would present the best possible chance for a solution.

Now, that all said, stop fagging up the thread.

[speeding3]

^ I wasn't even talking to you so chill the fuck out.

I have brought nothing but useful information to the thread, and ur Gona call me a faggot thanks. My educated guess is just as good as yours at why this is a problem we have both done our research and testing so instead of calling each other names why don't we work together to figure out a solution.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by speeding3 I have brought nothing but useful information to the thread, and ur Gona call me a faggot thanks. My educated guess is just as good as yours at why this is a problem we have both done our research and testing so instead of calling each other names why don't we work together to figure out a solution.

I wasn't even singling you out or I would have quoted you, Like I am now.
Edit: I don't do educated guesses; I do science.

Originally Posted by speeding3 And the conclusion that I came to was that the Black Death came from the additives that are in the 15% of gas in e85 being that they were never formulated for use in e85. Basically the additives fall out of solution.

This is wrong. If this isn't wrong, then explain how my HPFP internals can cake up with enough black sticky shit in less than 50 miles to cause the pump to stop cycling. The testing that has been done in this and many other threads counteracts your "three page analysis" on what the black death is.

Also, donate.

[Dano]

speeding....cliff notes

black death is oil that gets past the o-ring and Petrol can keep it broken down while corn can not.

Thus why brother Enki is working on a scraper of sorts to keep the oil out of the pump and why black death occurs quicker with some brands of oil.

at least I think I have that right.

edit: and lol...read the thread title (HPFP + Oil)

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Dano speeding....cliff notes black death is oil that gets past the o-ring and Petrol can keep it broken down while corn can not. Thus why brother Enki is working on a scraper of sorts to keep the oil out of the pump and why black death occurs quicker with some brands of oil. at least I think I have that right.

Quite right. I'm attacking this problem on two fronts:

1. Finding an oil that won't break down as fast in the pump
2. Doing anything possible to prevent oil from entering the pump in the first place

As for what the sticky and black deaths are, there's a post around here somewhere that has videos of me boiling e85 in a pan with a couple drops of RT6 in it and I managed to replicate the sticky death perfectly.

We know for a fact the black death is oil seepage since even pump gas cars wind up with black death inside them after a while. Have someone with stock internals and 50k miles pull their pump and take pics and you'll see what I mean.

[Dano]

Im a penzoil P guy myself but have not crossed the 50% barrier to test it...interested to see if you find it helps.

[speeding3]

if you used science then you would understand my analysis is actually very accurate if you do science and ur so smart then why don't you read what I wrote. And it is an educated guess until it's proven what you have my friend is a scientific theory. And a theory is a guess just so you know.

Alright, so what is this stuff? It is a appears to be a very large petroleum based hydrocarbon, similar to Vaseline. There isn't a single hetero-atom in the molecule (ie, the entire molecule is comprised of hydrogens and carbons), but the molecule is very large. It is also completely aliphatic (ie, only single bonds in the structure - no double or triple bonds). Where did it come from? I can only think of two different sources it could be coming from. It is either something that is mixed in with the rubber hoses that is meant to dissolve away in the gasoline, or it is a trace impurity in the 15% gasoline that is in E85 that wasn't separated during the fractional distillation process. Because it is such a large molecule, it wouldn't be very soluble in ethanol and could easily crash out of solution at the injector."

Oil in the pump is a good guess, but it dosent answer why the Black Death also jams up injectors and fuel rails on cars without a cam driven pump. oil sounds like a good theory but you have very little scientific evidence to back your theory up. You boiled e85 and the added oil and got a nasty goo. Did you attempt it with water, gas, did you have a control or lab analysis or anything else to help support your theory. Have you proven that the pump gets hot enough to boil the e85, ther are so many variables you are not accounting for gas has anywhere from a 100 to 425 degree boiling point depending on what the contents are and region and e85 has the same variance because of the 15% of gas in it and the amounts of additives region, even altitude plays a factor. Did you test any other e85 in the region or just your local pump, cause ther are many people on other forums that report very little o no goo after 3 years+ of 100% E85. And some people report the goo very soon after starting it.

Ther are to many variables you are not considering, and a more likely cause would be that the E85 is refined differently depending on region, and station pumps. A good place to start would be to repeat the test with different samples of e85 from different areas. Also others should run 100% in ther area and try different stations to see if they get the same results. Additives should also be tested seafom techron etc, and combination of things filter etc. if that dosent workThen you can go from ther. You idea is very interesting for them pump but I would rather find the cause befor I come up with a solution. I'm not trying to turn this pissing match I'm just trying to help find a feasible solution by starting at the root of the problem.

[Enki]

UPDATE:
Dug out my spare retaining nut and just ordered some PTFE barstock, which should be there Thursday.

Gunsmith will have both by next weekend, and hopefully it won't take a full week to get them back.

[Easter Bunny]

@speeding3; wow dude just shut the fuck up and read already. If your questions arent answered in the analysis that has already been performed why don't you take it upon yourself to do this research instead of berating the people that have done research. Fuckin brownie faggot


@everyone else: so I just need bigger injectors to do e85 on my speed right?

[Enki]

Originally Posted by speeding3 Shitload of words

I did read what you wrote.

It isn't the hoses; @phate; tested this by soaking replacements for a long time, and that came back negative. He also sent a sample out for analysis to a lab, and that result came back as being oil related/derived (please correct me if I'm wrong, Phate).

In summary: The black death you tested from port injected cars probably IS from the hoses. This is from the oil.

As far as my testing procedure goes, my findings were pretty conclusive and re-testing with the equipment I have is simply not going to happen again. You see, it wasn't until after I had boiled almost a full gallon of E (which only resulted in a yellowish, oily substance when cooled that was not sticky) that I added the oil. After adding the oil, you may note, I also encountered no issues. Not one. It wasn't until I turned the heat up high enough to AUTOIGNITE the e85 that the sticky was created, and that very well could be from the e boiling away from pan and allowing the oil to alter chemically amidst the eth vapors that any sticky was seen. Shit I still have the sample plate and it's STILL STICKY.

The e85 I used for testing, by the way, looked like drinking water it was so clean. No joke.

If you want to prove me wrong, by all means, just document the shit out of it; I won't be repeating the tests because the with the conditions I was able to replicate the issue in, a fire resulted. Otherwise, please don't use anecdotal evidence from years back on a completely different platform with a completely different fuel system as your basis for fact concerning the DISI-MZR.

I honestly don't care who figures this issue out (because I want the corn), but there have been very, very few people that have actively tried to actually *do* anything about this issue. If you truly are fired up about running 100% e85, then I would recommend that you replace your lines, pump, filter and anything else you might consider to be a problem and test it for us; since the evidence I've seen points to nothing more than oil and heat, that is where I will be focusing my efforts.

[Mizzle]

Hows come we don't have a return system setup yet? We can make 50 catch cans in 3 minutes and make our own PCB's for cooling fans but can't convert to a return system because?

[Enki]

The bummer part of setting up a return style system is that even if we had it circulate fuel after the car is shut down, it would have to cool the entire head to a temperature below fuel boiling temperature.

At that point, it might be easier to set up an external electric fan and waterpump to cool the engine down afterwards, but I'm still not convinced it would help that much with the car running, since we don't know exactly when the goo transition begins (as I've had my pump stick on a cold start before even getting out of the driveway, but that was a different kind of test).

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by Enki We know for a fact the black death is oil seepage since even pump gas cars wind up with black death inside them after a while. Have someone with stock internals and 50k miles pull their pump and take pics and you'll see what I mean.

To back this up, here are my internals at 82K miles with only pump gas(E10) run through them.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1374889018.971476.jpg

[El_Diablo]

Has anyone tested the boiling point of E85 at different pressures?

[Enki]

Lol that shit looks like it has hpfp ebola

Edit:
I would have done a pressurized test at 40, 50 and 60 psi with the hotplate, but I don't have the equipment for that. It was a consideration originally though.

[speeding3]

When I pulled my pump at 80k for ATI. ther wasnt a spot of black residue. And that was the original pump. Lets look at this if it is a oil issue is it possible that ther are slightly different tolerances on the bore of the cam follower or maybe it's just wearing out enough to allow more oil to seep on some and not others. That's why I was leaning towards differnces in fuel quality because my pump was spotless at 80k while others seem to have problems at a much Lower mileage.

[Mizzle]

Well, I've nearly always ran Pennzoil Platinum or Ultra in my car. There's one bottle of Rotella 5w40 in there right now b/c it was on sale, otherwise it's 5w30 PenUltra right now.

For a first-timer, how long would it take to pull my pump & inspect?

[El_Diablo]

Maybe an hour and a half to two hours depending on tools and skill.

[Enki]

Because of E, I've modified my car to make the pump more accessible. It now takes me longer to clean the internals/spill valve than it does to pull the pump and reinstall it, as I can remove the pump directly without having to remove any other part first.

Your best bet, though, is to have a local NATOR there to guide you through the process just to be safe.

[Dano]

With a fmic it takes me 10 minutes to pull my pump. 2 for just the spill valve.

I cut down a HF 19mm (size?) Wrench for the fuel inlet so I can get in there to losen it up

Youll also need an e8 tqx

SV is 32mm open end wrench.

Edit. Oh but I also dont have an EGR which is right in the way iirc.

Tappin

[mazdafreak]

W.e size that nut it that is attached to the hardline, i think 17mm or 19mm, you put an open-end on the nut with it angled upwards, no need to cut a wrench down or anything....Loosens/tightens no problem.....Then just an E8 socket for the 3 bolts, and done!


I can take a pic later if no one understands what i mean.


Youll also need a vice to clamp pump on....I do it on the ground and use my foot to hold it down to tighten/loosen the actual internal part. ((Not the right way, but it works for me since i dont have a vice.

[udntknw]

Originally Posted by Dano With a fmic it takes me 10 minutes to pull my pump. 2 for just the spill valve. I cut down a HF 19mm (size?) Wrench for the fuel inlet so I can get in there to losen it up Youll also need an e8 tqx SV is 32mm open end wrench. Edit. Oh but I also dont have an EGR which is right in the way iirc. Tappin

Don't forget the ziptie on the hardline!

just tappa it in...

[Enki]

Oil change complete. Just need to run the fuel down a bit, then pull the pump and clean it before going full e again, however long that will last >_>

Edit:
Once you've broken the retaining nut loose with a vice the first time, you don't need to use a vice any longer. I basically just go super hand tight and call it good.