Kings of Corn (HPFP + OIL)

[mazdafreak]

I would have sworn you or someone tried that oil before.....Im going to try mobil 1 diesel oil once I break motor in and switch to 100%.

[Enki]

If they did, they didn't post it up in here.

[LumberJack]

Well I figured id post my findings, got bored during an oil change and decided to pull my pump and check for the black death. I have been on T6 since about the first oil change at 1500 miles. I've been running 40% Ethanol for about 8k miles now and I rarely I mean if ever run straight 91. My pump was absolutely spotless with T6 after 8k miles. I know I'm not running 50/50 or anything but I was still expecting to see some signs because I only ever run my e85 mix.

Also, I am testing oils with this change. I am trying the valvoline vr1 race oil in the 10/30 and will be having it sent off for complete analysis and testing after 3500 miles. @UnknownSuperhero; will be helping with that. I will post results of that as well once completed.

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[Enki]

On a big turbo you're also flowing a shitload of fuel (less bypass at high rpms)...That might be a factor as well.

[Enki]

So, just put 6 gallons of e85 in, made it almost all the way home before pressure shit the bed. It came back, so I flogged the fuck out of it just in time to lose pressure pretty much for good immediately after.

Now, I need to get the spill valve cleaned and tested as I have to wake up fuck early to run some errands before work; if it isn't the spill valve, I'll have to abort the test (as failed) since I won't have time to rebuild the pump wholly tonight.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by mazdafreak I would have sworn you or someone tried that oil before.....Im going to try mobil 1 diesel oil once I break motor in and switch to 100%.

I did, and posted it on MSF... Somewhere. I had a whole discussion about Dexos1 oils last summer.


Clif's Notes: spill valve still stuck.


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[Enki]

How often did it stick?

Also, pump had grey/yellowish nasty in it, and since I need to drive the family > 60 miles today before work, I can't really afford to be slowed down by a stuck pump or spill valve. I aborted the test, but I'll try again this weekend.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Enki How often did it stick? Also, pump had grey/yellowish nasty in it, and since I need to drive the family > 60 miles today before work, I can't really afford to be slowed down by a stuck pump or spill valve. I aborted the test, but I'll try again this weekend.

It stuck twice; once when doing a MAF cal (high RPM & low load causes the spill valve to stick much more quickly), and once driving around. I wish I could remember how long I ran that oil though. I just drove straight from Charleston, SC home and have been up for 27 hours straight; I'll look through my oil change data when/if I wake up.


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[metalgear386]

I'm a prior RX8 owner and with all the rotary love there is a lot of discussion on oil and oil types. The Rx8 uses an oil pump to spray minuscule amounts of oil inside the the "cylinder" walls and this oil is to be burned off via the combustion cycle and exit the vehicle as smoke (which cant be seen 99% of the time). You are basically tied to fossil oils with the rx8 because the synthetics do not combust and burn as smoke like the regular oil does. The unburnt oil is then pushed out the exhaust as black tar and collects in the cat, making things break later.

Since we kinda think its hot as hell inside the hpfp the burnable parts of our synthetics may be vaporizing and leaving normally and the nonburnable parts are hanging out, and breaking our pumps.

With all that being said, i dunno crap about our fuel system, or oiling system. Just some thinking out loud. Like always plz provide reasoning for shooting down my insanity.

We could boil e-85 and apply regular oil and record results. (check for sticky)
Can our cars even use non-synth or do they automatically seize/det?? I honestly dunno.

prepared for the groans

[GODspeed7]

Originally Posted by metalgear386 I'm a prior RX8 owner and with all the rotary love there is a lot of discussion on oil and oil types. The Rx8 uses an oil pump to spray minuscule amounts of oil inside the the "cylinder" walls and this oil is to be burned off via the combustion cycle and exit the vehicle as smoke (which cant be seen 99% of the time). You are basically tied to fossil oils with the rx8 because the synthetics do not combust and burn as smoke like the regular oil does. The unburnt oil is then pushed out the exhaust as black tar and collects in the cat, making things break later. Since we kinda think its hot as hell inside the hpfp the burnable parts of our synthetics may be vaporizing and leaving normally and the nonburnable parts are hanging out, and breaking our pumps. With all that being said, i dunno crap about our fuel system, or oiling system. Just some thinking out loud. Like always plz provide reasoning for shooting down my insanity. We could boil e-85 and apply regular oil and record results. (check for sticky) Can our cars even use non-synth or do they automatically seize/det?? I honestly dunno. prepared for the groans

We already tried the boiling test with synthetic oil but I am not sure if regular oil was tried due to the fact our cars and direct Injection eat oil for breakfast!


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[metalgear386]

Originally Posted by GODspeed7 We already tried the boiling test with synthetic oil but I am not sure if regular oil was tried due to the fact our cars and direct Injection eat oil for breakfast! Sent from my iBro 5 using tapatalk, Bro!

Lol. I understand why noone would want non-synth in their engines. The boiling trick i think is great since we can visualize what is going on in the hpfp. As far as it being under pressure or not shouldnt matter too much I dont think. I know that for a crok-pot (yeah its that reference) you can raise the heat much higher than normal before boiling is achieved. (likewise you can actually depressure a liquid enough to boil at room temperature).

This is super far out there but just a question to get an idea of how everything works...
What exactly is the combustion chamber pressure for our cars with a moderate e-85 tune?
Would our injectors, with the presence of high amounts of ethanol be allowed to have soot pushed up through the injectors? And then this soot is collecting? Is e-85 damaging the injectors themselves and the problem working from the combustion chamber backwards?

Just crazy questions to help rule out any possibility...

[Dano]

WTF brownies !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Enki]

This thread is now about catfish and women that enjoy the company of dogs and peanut butter.

Relevant images:

[Enki]

Teflon rod came in today, gonna get it to the gunsmith asap for milling.

[mazdafreak]

Sick! Hope everything works, so I can run 100% again without problems!

[Enki]

Penn Plat failed to even get me home before pressure drop kicked in. Next on the list is Royal Purple 5-30, which gives me a little hope as it's the only oil I will have or will be testing that's labeled DEXOS 1 compliant.

I'll be changing the oil out either later this afternoon or tomorrow.

[mazdafreak]

Was that with the teflon rod??


I had good results with vr1 oil.

[Enki]

VR1 didn't work for me either; as for the teflon scraper, that is still in progress.

Edit:
I'd personally prefer to resolve this issue with nothing more than a specific oil rather than having to custom mill part of the fuel pump.

[LumberJack]

Originally Posted by Enki VR1 didn't work for me either; as for the teflon scraper, that is still in progress. Edit: I'd personally prefer to resolve this issue with nothing more than a specific oil rather than having to custom mill part of the fuel pump.

I didn't like vr1 either. I'm at abour 2500 miles on it and don't like what I saw when I checked my oil, much much darker then when I was running t6.
@Enki; I'm going to be testing an oil called Purol look into if you'd like. I've spoken with a few of the companies engineers of the oil about testing in DI motors and they have results and info on the break down even with e85. Ill let you know how I like it and what I see from it


http://bisimoto.com/store/index.php?...Path=5_120_249

Link to the oil, note: It is pretty expensive, even more so the RP, but with the testing and finding I've personally seen after talking with them, I'm giving it a shot.
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[MS3CB]

If your Rotella T6 is working.. why are you changing.. I have ran mine since day 1. (also in every turbo'd car ive ever owned.) Never an issue.

[Enki]

Keep in mind your testing will only be valid if you're running full-on E85, not a mix.
Otherwise test away!

[LumberJack]

Originally Posted by MS3CB If your Rotella T6 is working.. why are you changing.. I have ran mine since day 1. (also in every turbo'd car ive ever owned.) Never an issue.

Because i don't always intend on running less than 50% e85. I want to find an oil that I can run 50% and greater with the soon to be built motor and aux fueling

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[Enki]

I ran e45 (50/50) on t6 for ages without issue; it's higher concentrations that fuck the pump.

[mazdafreak]

Mobil 1 diesel oil I hear is good for e85, that's what mobil one recommends.



And idk if any oil will help. May help for a lil while, but spill valve will still get junked up.....Scraper may be the only thing to rly help without cleaning pump for awhile. Idk.

[Enki]

Pressure dropped off halfway through my morning trip; I will say, however, that while cruising on the freeway the engine was "kicking" quite a bit and AFRs were stable, so I take that as a sign that the pressure was trying to come back.

Also, the moment I got home, pressure started to return and at some point was even at target. While it doesn't last long, I hold hope for my next oil change removing more of the old oil which is what I'm thinking is the cause of the current issues.

That said, I'll be pulling the spill valve this afternoon to see if that is the only issue (which I'm hoping is the case). If it isn't, I'll be going back to 50/50 until sometime after next oil change (which will be in the next couple months, and will be RP again).

[Enki]

IT'S ALIVE!

Spill valve had a little sticky. 5 minutes and back at full gumption; 1/4 tank down, let's see how far this goes.

[El_Diablo]

Awesome progress!!!! I'll be on E by the end of the week but I'm starting slow with only an E31 mix (9/5).

[Enki]

Yeah, it is awesome. I'm thinking the sticky spill valve is a result of not having all the old oil out of the engine when the new shit went in; should be cut in half with the next oil change though, and thus last longer between cleanings.

If it does get better, I'll probably be running RP for the foreseeable future. I've also ordered some Blackstone testing kits, and will be following their recommendations for oil change intervals, although the next oil change I do will probably only have a thousand or so miles on it.

[Enki]

So went out for lunch today, about 40 minutes round trip. Pressure fell out on the way back, but did the same thing it did the previous time; it fought to come back, so I'm pretty sure it's just the spill valve again.

I'll go clean it a little later and see what's up, but I'll probably go back to 50/50 until sometime after the next oil change before I continue testing it, or until the scraper gets built.

If it is just spill valve again (likely), then it's already a huge ass leap forward on this problem.

[mazdafreak]

Im switching to 100% in about a week and will start testing again......Its getting cold over here now tho, especially at night......E85 hated cold and always dropped pressure from the spill valve getting sticky

[Enki]

I have an idea on how to fix the cold start issues in the winter, and if RP fixes the pump issues I'll do a bunch of testing for it to confirm.

[littleloogy]

Thank you for all the work you guys are doing. I am looking forward to watching y'all succeed with your goal!

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[Enki]

Issue was the spill valve again. Took 3 minutes to clean it and I was on my way; I rolled on down to the gas station where I normally get my corn, and put in 5 gals of 91 and dropped my 50/50 mpg tune on it.

As a side note, I got 91 miles on that 5 gallons (which I had to force in; the fill neck was full) so I averaged about 18.2 MPG stomping the shit out of it. Not too shabby, and I think I can probably get close to stock or better mileage on full E (I'll test this when the time comes).

Anywho, no issues after this latest spill cleaning, which I must say I was curious about since the spill needle didn't actually feel all that sticky. No issues on the way home with a 9/5 mix either; I'll probably put another 2 gallons of 91 in when there's room for it though just to get my tune back on track.

Also, I did the mix test in a little 12 oz ocean spray bottle; the results were...interesting. When I first put the E in the bottle on top of the oil, it was a little cloudy and light purple but still clear enough to see the layered difference. I shook it, and it made like a hazy film that coated the inside of the bottle. 30 minutes later, there didn't appear to be any change so I've decided to wait and see if anything is different tomorrow morning; I'll post up pics after that.

Now, the reason I say the results are interesting, is because it doesn't look like there will be any separation of oil and fuel in this case. That alone is interesting, because when I did the t6 boiling oil/corn test, the oil basically stayed in droplet form the whole time at the bottom of the pan; that is important because it leads me to believe that if the fuel will soak into the oil, then it stands to reason that the oil will soak into the fuel; thus, no black death.

I'll probably confirm this by pulling the pump this weekend, after I get back from Phoenix.

Needless to say, I'm even more optimistic than ever about RP working to resolve the issues we've had with full corn on these cars...

Time will tell though, time will tell.

[dot584]

I'm so excited for ANYTHING to work. I'm on the Perm tune list but it's not going to happen for a while it looks like so hopefully this gets sorted by the time I get tuned. Thank you for doing the testing!
Also I'm in Tucson as well so if there is anything you need help with let me know, my car can be a test subject since I hardly drive being across the street from campus.
Sent from GS4

[He Hate Me]

I think we need to switch to the ULX110 oil @Enki;. I'll see if I can get a hold of some. You saw in that video that it separated the E85 and oil pretty quick.

Also, if the E85 and oil are mixing like you stated, won't this create more issues, possibly destroying o2 sensors? Running rich?

But thank you for doing the test as I was itching to know. I figured it wouldn't be like the ULX video, as ULX is a mineral oil.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by dot584 I'm so excited for ANYTHING to work. I'm on the Perm tune list but it's not going to happen for a while it looks like so hopefully this gets sorted by the time I get tuned. Thank you for doing the testing! Also I'm in Tucson as well so if there is anything you need help with let me know, my car can be a test subject since I hardly drive being across the street from campus. Sent from GS4

Me too.
If you want to test, and I mean truly test, back up my findings by swapping oils, or even test other oils not in the list (just be careful you don't test shit oils that could potentially damage the car).

Originally Posted by He Hate Me I think we need to switch to the ULX110 oil @Enki;. I'll see if I can get a hold of some. You saw in that video that it separated the E85 and oil pretty quick. Also, if the E85 and oil are mixing like you stated, won't this create more issues, possibly destroying o2 sensors? Running rich? But thank you for doing the test as I was itching to know. I figured it wouldn't be like the ULX video, as ULX is a mineral oil.

I'm not convinced the oil being carried away by the fuel is an entirely bad thing. Remember that my hot plate testing showed that the little droplets of oil hanging around is what caused the sticky in the first place.

As for oil being a problem, I don't really see how it would considering how many cars have smoky turbos and how even cars that have only run pump gas ever have had black death buildup so bad that the internals collar had to be pried out of the pump.

At this point I'm basically for anything that works, and won't cause other issues along the way; it's entirely possible that this will be the last brand of oil I ever run, with or without the scraper.

[He Hate Me]

I've never heard of the black goop buildup occurring using only normal pump gas?

The black goop buildup has been occurring for quite a while on other platforms. I remember back when I first started using E85 on my SRT-4, I read this. Still to this day, no one seems to have a real viable answer to it.

OK... Now Let's Talk About the Downsides of e85 - SRT Forums - SRT4, SRT6, SRT8, SRT10 & Dodge Forum

At first people thought it was the pumps themselves, some people said that old diesel tanks were refilled with E85. But then people came out saying their E85 stations had put in brand new containers in the ground.

A second thought was, it's eating away slowly at the rubber lines.

E85 is also VERY good at dissolving debris in the tank over time, and this might just be a side effect. It would be interesting of a test if someone ran E85 straight on a brand new fuel tank with no chance of debris in it.

Here is also a thread on a Evo running for 3 years straight and no sign of the goop.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/e85-eth...years-e85.html

There is so many things that are obstacles. Not to discourage you at all. I remember when I first bought into this platform, one of my first questions to Dale was; "Can I run full E85."

Obviously we have to figure out what is causing this goop, as it might not be the oil (unlikely but plausible) and the factor of it on the spill valve.

[Enki]

The worst pump I've ever seen came off a cx7; hence my comment about prying the pump apart. Pretty sure it only ever ran pump gas, as it was purchased from a shop that wound up replacing the motor. It had the stock internals in it still.
@phate; already did a test with one of those huge canister filters that catches even the tiniest shit, and found nothing in the filter. It was spotless.

My testing with the hot plate was pretty fucking difinitive as to oil being the cause of the sticky death at the very least.

[phate]

Originally Posted by He Hate Me stuff

Read:

E85 Discussion - HPFP lubrication and Flow issues

That will give you an idea of where we've been and what has been tested and determined, thus far. That thread, and this one, will get you up to speed on "where we are" with E85.

[JgamB]

@Enki; maybe you can store some E85 to keep your testing consistent. Looks like southern parts of AZ are a week away from possible E74 deliveries.