Kings of Corn (HPFP + OIL)

[Enki]

Honestly I'm not too terribly worried about a 5% (maximum) content drop. It's still enough to cause issues with pumps as it is. Normally, I don't even flash a new map with changed scalars; I let the LTFTs soak it up.

[Enki]

Oil is out of the car, to be replaced tomorrow.

*Que dramatic music*

[Enki]

Car not going anywhere for a bit while I figure shit out:

Enki's EFR Ordeal...

TLDR: Car on jack stands, no manifold or turbo installed; unable to proceed due to lack of parts/proper configuration on turbo and vague instructions.

[Enki]

Baseline UOA on the RP oil has been mailed today...somewhere around 1k miles on it but should give me an idea of where it sits.

[timjs]

Not trying to thread jack, or post in the wrong place, but I had a random thought today at work and I want to get it out before I forget it because I'm about to leave the house in like five minutes.


There's probably some way to isolate the pump area, including the end of the cam from engine oil. This way no engine oil ever reaches the fuel pump in the first place.

The parts could then bathe in some OTHER type of lubricant, one that wouldn't react the same way as typical engine oil would. (if such a lubricant exists) A type of closed loop, splash lubrication system perhaps.

Maybe the pump isnt the place to prevent black goo, but rather the pump's mounting base itself.

If this has been ruled out before or doesn't make sense, disregard this post.

[Enki]

Unfortunately the cam follower has to have oil all the way around it, and without the vent holes for oil to drain out, at some point whatever lubricant is in the follower will be forced into the pump proper. Also, you'd want whatever lubricant is there to cycle through and get filtered/cooled at some point.

Sadly, it doesn't really seem viable to fully isolate the pump like that without spending huge amounts of time/money on modifications to the pump when I might prove in the coming weeks that a simple change of oil can resolve the issues with E.

[timjs]

Excellent feedback, thanks!

[Enki]

Baseline oil test came back...Low mileage, so nothing to see really.
Next test in 3 months or so.

Mazdaspeed 3/6 UOA Results

[Enki]

Might be testing e74 (full e85 spring/fall blend, which is southern AZ's winter blend) as soon as tonight. I'm still running the pump as it was the last time I tested, and the only thing that's been done to it since the last full breakdown is the reported 2 spill valve cleanings. I'm curious to see how it goes.

Updates to follow.

[Enki]

Made it home with no issues. Might go for another little drive tonight and see how it does, or I might just wait till tomorrow morning and go meet up with some locals for a stockout (not me stocking out).

Pretty promising, considering I've not cleaned the pump since the last time.

[littleloogy]

How many miles was your drive? God I hope we figure this out!

[Enki]

Originally Posted by littleloogy How many miles was your drive? God I hope we figure this out!

About 12, but it doesn't really matter, seeing as how the past two times I've tried full corn I've not made it home without issues.

Tonight, however, marks a change.

The pump has still not been cleaned, and I've put another 20-23 hard flogging miles on it.

ZERO ISSUES SO FAR!

If there is hope, it comes in a purple bottle...

[bladerunner10121]

Wow. I hope people realize what a great achievement this is if it turns out to have fixed the black death issue. Its one more thing that would let us push this platform even further. Enki, thank you for all your hard work. Can't wait to see your numbers with that EFR turbo on full corn juice.

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[mtosofsky]

If there is hope, it comes in a purple bottle...

Threads like these are why i love MSF. Great to see that something is potentially working. myself and I'm sure many other members really appreciate all the time, money, and risk you've taken by using your vehicle for this process.

[Enki]

Pressure dropped out; pulling pump tomorrow for full cleaning (first time in a long time). Details here:

Enki's EFR Ordeal...

[timjs]

Damn. So if this doesn't work out, do you have another plan?

[Enki]

Yeah, gunsmith has stuff to mill specialty scraper for the HPFP.

[Enki]

OK so cleaned the pump out, found some nasty shit in there but no black death. It was pretty sticky but that's likely because I didn't clean the spill valve all that well last time and Ski used T6 to re-lube the spill valve o-ring.

Anywho, the first thing I noticed when I pulled the pump was that I could actuate the internals by hand without too much issue. It was squishy, but not really sticky; not really sure if it was becoming an issue or not. The spill valve was definitely sticking though.

At any rate, I'm below half a tank from being topped off with full E, so things look pretty decent. I'd like to see how long it goes on a full clean from here, but I'm not sure if I'm potentially having some ITFP issues or not. Time will tell, updates will follow.

[Enki]

Pressure dropped out again after 50 ish miles. Went back to 50/50 for now until I think this through a little further and get the car running stable.

So far, though, all the issues I've hit have been spill valve related, which is much easier to deal with than black death on the internals.

At any rate, it doesn't look like I'll be able to run stock boost with the EFR due to fueling window limitations, so further involvement on my part may be short lived here on out.

[littleloogy]

Do you know how to create the sticky substance that we get in our SVs? I have some fresh/wild ideas in my head to keep the SV clean however I need a specimen. I quit running straight E85 because of reliability (daily driver). Now I wish I would have saved all the gunk funk

[Enki]

Yes. Boil E85 + oil in a saucepan on really high heat. E alone won't do it.

Edit:
It might be possible to slightly mill the spill valve so it will accept a tiny PTFE washer between the needle and the actual channel/button thingie. That is where it sticks, and where the spill valve issue will likely be solved.

It might also be possible to simply polish part of it so there's very little seating contact between needle and channel/button thingie. That would also probably work rather well and be easier most likely.

[littleloogy]

Agreed, Thanks for the recipe. I'll use FP hardware mod attempts as a last resort.

[El_Diablo]

Be very careful when heating fuel. The vapor is extremely volatile and doesn't take much to go off.

[udntknw]

Originally Posted by El_Diablo Be very careful when heating fuel. The vapor is extremely volatile and doesn't take much to go off.

@Enki; knows this from experience...

[El_Diablo]

That’s exactly why I posted that, lol.

It’s best to do it in an open environment with a good breeze. Next best thing would be in the garage with a fan blowing out of the garage.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by El_Diablo That’s exactly why I posted that, lol. It’s best to do it in an open environment with a good breeze. Next best thing would be in the garage with a fan blowing out of the garage.

Best with no breeze and DEF not in an enclosed environment. Open space for sure.

Keep in mind the only time I was able to replicate the sticky was when the e85 auto ignited. Food for thought.

[littleloogy]

So much for cooking this on my stove next to my dinner tonight. Thanks for the heads up guys... May have saved my eyebrows

[JgamB]

This is interesting. The fueling stations themselves get black death it appears, complete with cavitating pumps and clogged filters.

[El_Diablo]

Originally Posted by Enki Best with no breeze and DEF not in an enclosed environment. Open space for sure. Keep in mind the only time I was able to replicate the sticky was when the e85 auto ignited. Food for thought.

The reason I suggested a breeze is to quickly disapate the volatile vapor "cloud".

Keep in mind, the vapor is heavier than air so if you have a gas fired water heater or anything with a pilot light anywhere near where you're working you have a highly explosive situation.

[Enki]

I did my testing in the driveway on an electric hotplate and it still burst into flames.

No spark or open flames within 100 feet of it.

[El_Diablo]

A slow simmer would probably be better. The rest of the comment was focused towards @littleloogy;

[littleloogy]

All joking aside I will be heading to my lab to create the substance and do my testing. Now I have an excuse to wear my flame suit.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by El_Diablo A slow simmer would probably be better.

You can't do a slow simmer. Not with full E85. 5 seconds after I would take it off of the hotplate (boiling) it would be cool enough to touch the bottom. It *HAS* to have *EXTREMELY* high heat in order to get the oil hot enough to do the breakdown thing; normally in the pump it would be 160+ degrees and under pressure so the fuel wouldn't boil.

You might be able to keep it in a sealed metal container and replicate though, without risk of fire.

Originally Posted by littleloogy All joking aside I will be heading to my lab to create the substance and do my testing. Now I have an excuse to wear my flame suit.

Pretty sure @phate; already sent in some sticky/black death to be tested and found it to be compounds normally found in oil.

[timjs]

Originally Posted by Enki You might be able to keep it in a sealed metal container and replicate though, without risk of fire.

A bomb?

[Enki]

I said there wouldn't be risk of fire, didn't say anything about explosion.

[biscuit003]

If you've got a set of brass balls, perhaps you could try this in a pressure cooker.

[Enki]

FYI, I used a portable laser thermometer to take temp readings off the fuel pump after going out for lunch today; parts where the fuel was boiling (I.E. the spill valve area) were about 140 Fahrenheit, while lower down and closer to the head read between 160 and 165.

[Spectrix]

Not sure if this has been suggested / dismissed already; the idea of a phenolic spacer to reduce heat transfer to the HPFP?

[mtosofsky]

Not sure if this has been suggested / dismissed already; the idea of a phenolic spacer to reduce heat transfer to the HPFP?

But then if something like that was possible, wouldn't the internals assembly be too short if we are essentially spacing the pump off of the head slightly?

[Deldran]

Originally Posted by mtosofsky But then if something like that was possible, wouldn't the internals assembly be too short if we are essentially spacing the pump off of the head slightly?

Hmm I wonder how much an effect a gasket would make. I would think we would see a reduction in volume due to the shorter stroke of the piston. Most internals seem to like to run away up top if all the gasket did was stop this from happening it might not be a bad thing


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