Kings of Corn (HPFP + OIL)

[robry]

Originally Posted by mtosofsky But then if something like that was possible, wouldn't the internals assembly be too short if we are essentially spacing the pump off of the head slightly?

yes you would need to make a spacer for the top of the internals as well, or make a longer set of internals.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Spectrix Not sure if this has been suggested / dismissed already; the idea of a phenolic spacer to reduce heat transfer to the HPFP?

I suggested a TIG for the pump could potentially help much earlier in this very thread, but recanted considering hot ass engine oil splashes all over the pump. I've also suggested converting to a return style fuel system, but that would only allow cooling for as much thermal mass as there is fuel before heatsoaking.

Originally Posted by mtosofsky But then if something like that was possible, wouldn't the internals assembly be too short if we are essentially spacing the pump off of the head slightly?

You could have the pump or pump mount milled a little to account for the spacer and keep everything in check; I have a spare pump to head mounting assembly that this could be tested with, but I'm not too sure this would work anyways.

Originally Posted by Deldran Hmm I wonder how much an effect a gasket would make. I would think we would see a reduction in volume due to the shorter stroke of the piston. Most internals seem to like to run away up top if all the gasket did was stop this from happening it might not be a bad thing

I don't really think it would be a good idea to use a reduction in effective fuel flow volume via displacement changes in the pump to control the runaway pressure when you can simply modify the HPFP commanded tables to achieve the same result. My table, for example, is attached (I should note that I'm still fucking with this to get the result I want). I run a 2100 rail valve so if I let pressure run away, I hit fuel cut almost immediately.

Originally Posted by robry yes you would need to make a spacer for the top of the internals as well, or make a longer set of internals.

Or you could mill the pump mount to the head, or the pump, or have a custom follower bucket made. Milling the pump mount to the head is probably the best option, because there's tons of thread on the three bolts and taking 1mm off of it probably wouldn't hurt it any. There'd still probably be a fair bit of heat transmission through the bolts and via ambient air, though, so it would really be a matter of time before the pump got hot again; I just think it would take longer.

[Deldran]

Originally Posted by Enki I suggested a TIG for the pump could potentially help much earlier in this very thread, but recanted considering hot ass engine oil splashes all over the pump. I've also suggested converting to a return style fuel system, but that would only allow cooling for as much thermal mass as there is fuel before heatsoaking. You could have the pump or pump mount milled a little to account for the spacer and keep everything in check; I have a spare pump to head mounting assembly that this could be tested with, but I'm not too sure this would work anyways. I don't really think it would be a good idea to use a reduction in effective fuel flow volume via displacement changes in the pump to control the runaway pressure when you can simply modify the HPFP commanded tables to achieve the same result. My table, for example, is attached (I should note that I'm still fucking with this to get the result I want). I run a 2100 rail valve so if I let pressure run away, I hit fuel cut almost immediately. Or you could mill the pump mount to the head, or the pump, or have a custom follower bucket made. Milling the pump mount to the head is probably the best option, because there's tons of thread on the three bolts and taking 1mm off of it probably wouldn't hurt it any. There'd still probably be a fair bit of heat transmission through the bolts and via ambient air, though, so it would really be a matter of time before the pump got hot again; I just think it would take longer.

I didn't think it was the best solution I would just be curious to see the effect it had

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[Enki]

I think someone needs to get their hands on an SRT4 fuel pump for analysis...last I heard, they don't have the issues we have.

[littleloogy]

Interesting. I'll run by my buddies wrecking yard after work and see if i can't locate one.

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by Enki I think someone needs to get their hands on an SRT4 fuel pump for analysis...last I heard, they don't have the issues we have.

....Um I am confused. The dart srt4 isn't really out...and the caliber erm...well doesn't have a hpfp.

[Enki]

Guess I'm mistaken on the SRT4 part, but I am pretty sure that there's something out there with a hpfp that doesn't have issues on full corn.

[Ms3_Miami]

Originally Posted by Enki Guess I'm mistaken on the SRT4 part, but I am pretty sure that there's something out there with a hpfp that doesn't have issues on full corn.

335i?

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[Easter Bunny]

cobalt ss turbocharged

[Enki]

Skittle, SRT, Cobalt, they all look the same to me. Lol

[mtosofsky]

Guess I'm mistaken on the SRT4 part, but I am pretty sure that there's something out there with a hpfp that doesn't have issues on full corn.

I've read numerous cobalt forums and people are running 100% E on the stock HPFP with no issues at all. It's the only DI car I've seen run full e85 without fuel pressure issues. Even 335i's can't do it. I had a friend running 70% E with a 400lph e85 compatible lpfp and it still didnt work. His logs showed drops in fuel pressure especially between shifts.

[Enki]

Then we need to dissect a Cobalt pump.

[littleloogy]

Noted.

[mtosofsky]

Then we need to dissect a Cobalt pump.

Been thinking this for a really long time. I've seen them making 340-350whp and 400+trq. But we all know our stock rods can't take that much torque.

Edit: just looked up some info. What trifecta tuning has done for the cobalt to run full E was to crank up fuel rail pressure and change the starting window for the injectors. Some people had experienced low fuel pressure because the lpfp wasn't providing the hpfp with enough fuel to compensate for needing a higher volume of E than compared to gas. So some people upgrade their lpfp and then are good to go. ZZP also created a stock profile camshaft that has a larger lobe for the hpfp. I've seen some of them have a roller follower on their hpfpand some have the same interal setup that we do. I don't know too much about the inner workings of these pumps so I can't speak as to why the LNF platform can support full E, but I'm hoping it can give us some insight.

[Enki]

We will probably have to actually take one apart to find out more; our major issue with e85 is the fact that nasty shit builds up inside and causes all sorts of mayhem. If they aren't reporting similar issues, it's probably because of a fundamental design difference in the pump.

[mtosofsky]

We will probably have to actually take one apart to find out more; our major issue with e85 is the fact that nasty shit builds up inside and causes all sorts of mayhem. If they aren't reporting similar issues, it's probably because of a fundamental design difference in the pump.

Agreed. Luckily their hpfp can be had really cheap compared to ours. So it might pay to get one and rip it apart.


Cobalt SS LNF Turbo Buick Regal Direct Injection Pump 2 0 Eng | eBay

[littleloogy]

I will see if I can't get one for free first. If so, i will get it over to ENKI so he can take a look at it. No sense of spending money for no reason.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by littleloogy I will see if I can't get one for free first. If so, i will get it over to ENKI so he can take a look at it. No sense of spending money for no reason.

That would be pretty cool. If you can get one free, let me know what shipping is and I should be able to get you that much at least. Kind of in debt up to my ass due to EFR purchase at the moment, though so buying a new one just to destroy doesn't make financial sense to me right now.

[Easter Bunny]

Originally Posted by Enki Skittle, SRT, Cobalt, they all look the same to me. Lol

All you see are headlights in your rearview mirror?

[Constantin]

I'll cheap in for the pump as well if you guys can't find a free one.

[mtosofsky]

I'll cheap in for the pump as well if you guys can't find a free one.

This!! I'm sure we could get a few people together who are willing to chip in for the cause.

[Enki]

If it comes to that, let's not spend a whole bunch on a new pump that's only going to get destroyed.

[littleloogy]

My buddy sold the only cobalt block with the pump still installed. I am going to try one more place. Then its off to eBay we go...

[littleloogy]

No luck. Is the pump that what's his face posted earlier the correct one? I will hit buy it now and get it on its way.

[Enki]

Edit:
This may not be the right one.

[littleloogy]

I've been researching these and it seems these pumps are used in a lot of flex fuel applications. Do you know who actually makes the fuel pump for our engines? Is it bosch, denso, or maybe another company that does DGI? I am hitting a wall...

Blind people don’t see blackness, they see nothing.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by littleloogy I've been researching these and it seems these pumps are used in a lot of flex fuel applications. Do you know who actually makes the fuel pump for our engines? Is it bosch, denso, or maybe another company that does DGI? I am hitting a wall... Blind people don’t see blackness, they see nothing.

Hitachi.

[Enki]

I pulled my pump apart today to clean it due to some pressure drop I was seeing and looking at the spill valve (the only thing that appears to be having issues with full corn at the moment), it should be really feasible to have the seat milled (the part where the needle contacts that gets pried off of the spill valve assembly) and have a little tiny ptfe washer made for right there. I'm pretty sure the needle assembly doesn't see much, if any flow, and that all of it goes through the seat and button area itself (out the sides).

I'll talk to my gunsmith, but unfortunately I won't be able to test much of this stuff going forward.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Enki I pulled my pump apart today to clean it due to some pressure drop I was seeing and looking at the spill valve (the only thing that appears to be having issues with full corn at the moment), it should be really feasible to have the seat milled (the part where the needle contacts that gets pried off of the spill valve assembly) and have a little tiny ptfe washer made for right there. I'm pretty sure the needle assembly doesn't see much, if any flow, and that all of it goes through the seat and button area itself (out the sides). I'll talk to my gunsmith, but unfortunately I won't be able to test much of this stuff going forward.

You still interested in seeing the SS pump?

[Enki]

Hell yeah, there's always room for analysis, and I'm sure we can locate a test car.

[udntknw]

Originally Posted by Enki Hell yeah, there's always room for analysis, and I'm sure we can locate a test car.

Maybe... Maybe we can....

just tappa it in...

[littleloogy]

I don't like using my DD for testing. But I will help fund the project. PM me your address @Enki; I. Get you the pump.

Blind people don’t see blackness, they see nothing.

[Spectrix]

Does anyone happen to have a bit of 1/16th phenolic spacer material to cut a gasket for Enki too?

[NCspecV81]

Originally Posted by Spectrix Does anyone happen to have a bit of 1/16th phenolic spacer material to cut a gasket for Enki too?

This may sound a little ghetto, but what about getting a cheap cutting board at a dollar store?

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by NCspecV81 This may sound a little ghetto, but what about getting a cheap cutting board at a dollar store?

Phenolic Material is chemical resistant. I would not want dollar store crap breaking down and getting in my fuel or oil. Why don't you try it and let us know how it goes ;-)

[NCspecV81]

Originally Posted by littleloogy Phenolic Material is chemical resistant. I would not want dollar store crap breaking down and getting in my fuel or oil. Why don't you try it and let us know how it goes ;-)

Hdpe should lend itself very well to alcohol and acid resistance.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by littleloogy Phenolic Material is chemical resistant. I would not want dollar store crap breaking down and getting in my fuel or oil. Why don't you try it and let us know how it goes ;-)

Phenolics are also carcinogens, so I wouldn't recommend just cutting some up.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by silvapain Phenolics are also carcinogens, so I wouldn't recommend just cutting some up.

Now you tell me; I've been smoking this shit for over a month now.

[tokoam]

what about 335i HPFP ? my cousin runs K in his car 80% of the time and he never has any issues.Looking at his logs they look to be rather consistent pressure without any loss in pressure even between shifts.Although we have never taken it apart to inspect he has been running E for almost 2 years on JB3 tune.

[Enki]

The more the merrier, IMO.