Off the wagon (pink elephants and unicorns)
 

OK OK so I'm not quite off the wagon yet. I've been sipping here and there (mixed fuel), but it won't be long before I'm full on sauced.

Alright, so with the advent of OTS BT maps and whatnot, I've needed new internals for a few weeks. My hesitation to drop money on them ended two weeks ago when coming home from a local car meet (Saturday night Tucson In N Out meet) I hit 1150 PSI when rolling on the throttle in third.

So, I broke down and ordered some Autotech internals from @JP@edgeautosport.com (Thanks man!) and they arrived yesterday. Had a snafu with the tools, which prevented me from getting them installed last night, but I Just finished up my install and initial testing.

Before I comment on the photos, here is some info about my car:
2009 MS3 purchased in September of 08
Driven like stolen since about a week into ownership
29,700 miles or so on it
Only run Shell gas, and have been running 2-3 gallon mixes for a few months now


Anywho, on to the meat:

When I opened up my fuel pump, I expected to see a nasty nightmare like what everyone else sees when they open theirs.

The first thing I saw was some shit floating around in the gas. Initially, it looked like little flecks of something, but felt like a paste that smeared really easy on the paper towel:

http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...Pump/poops.jpg

Breaking it down further, however, I was pretty surprised (Keep in mind, these are the DIRTY pictures, fresh off the car):
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...0Pump/body.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...ump/smidge.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/.../alsoshiny.jpg
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/.../morebling.jpg

Shit was so clean inside I had a hard time taking a good photo of it that wasn't all flashed out:
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...Pump/SHINY.jpg

So, with internals install completed, I idled it for about 10 minutes then went for a short drive. About 5 miles in I goosed it a bit and pressure was stable, so I'll be doing some more testing tomorrow and potentially switching over to pure e85 in the evening (perhaps). Only thing I'm worried about is the quality of ethanol in Phoenix when I go up there for the meet on Saturday.

Back on topic of E85; some of you may be wondering what it really is. This picture sums it up:
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...spider-pig.jpg

As for my action plan, I'm going to try this first:
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...el-ethanol.jpg

If that doesn't work, maybe some of this:
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...ueled-car2.jpg

Updates to follow; in the meantime, a question for the resident Eth heads (@phate @glorifiedbozo):

Since my pump was so clean, do you think it would really hurt to run without the inline filter? I can't really get the line needed due to blowing my sticky wad on getting internals, but I *should* have enough to get the filter.

Worst case scenario, you see black gunk like I did. I am 99% sure my original internals were fine, but KMD just sent me some to cover their ass. Bozo isn't seeing anything, and didn't see anything in the filter...so, there is some risk, but I don't think it is too great to prevent you from trying it :)

Sorry to thread jack but you guys are still doing a dyno session tomorrow correct?

If that's directed at me, shoot me a PM!

Yeah, honestly you wouldn't believe how clean everything actually was. I think I'll go ahead and actually give it a shot here soonish.

35k when i did mine

mine were super clean too... a little black residue up top in the 18mm housing but i cleaned it out

So apparently proper MAF scaling is important.

18 PSI spike + MAF a bit off + 10.5:1 target = 9.5:1 actual, 1300 PSI fuel pressure and maxed injectors.

Time to get to work!

Update:

2 tune revisions and > 300 miles later, still running strong.

Sweet! Nice meeting you today love your nook setup

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

Well shit. Pretty sure I've hit a flow wall due to stock top mount intercooler and/or downpipe (which is catless, btw).

Seems I can't break my airflow record of 4.4 volts, which was set @ 16.5 PSI with ambient temps 50 degrees cooler than when I last logged a few hours ago. I will say that I did hit the same airflow numbers on the eth, but at only 13-14 PSI; this alone tells me the fuel is worth keeping.

Any thoughts on this guys?

Your fine. Your turbo is probably maxed around there, so an intercooler won't help much. I haven't seen any airflow gains from aftermarket intercoolers....which is why I don't have one. Depending on intake, I'd say your 4.4V is pretty good.

Sorry I have been out of the loop for a few days do to computer issue's. When I originally swapped my internals they were super clean, a little bit of black gunk where the plunger sits but it was mostly superficial. It's good to see your not having any issue's with it so far, when you get the tune dialed in your gonna love it, and most other cars on the road are gonna hate you.

I already love it, but like Phate said earlier, I've most likely maxed my turbo already. I'm going to make one last attempt to dial the boost back up to 16 pounds on a roll on the throttle, but if that doesn't work I can't really do anything more about it.

Looks like I need to consider going big turbo now :(

Figured out my boost issue. WGDC is being halved from what I have in ATR.

FML

Edit: Attacking this from a load perspective, though I thought I already took care of it. Giving the map another once over.

Boost issues figured out. New dyno plot below.

Just about time to break the fuel pump down for the first time since internals were installed (somewhere near 500 miles ago) as I'm starting to see random blips of fuel pressure dropping below 1650 at WOT; these blips of low pressure are random and happen throughout the rev band. This also probably has something to do with it taking twice as long (about 2 seconds) to start the car; hesitates to build pressure before firing on a cold start.

OK, so just pulled the spill valve and it looked fine. I stood around for a few minute scratching my head then I noticed that the solenoid was sticky on one part; the same few micron thick film Phate had (with no residue left in filter).

I scrub the fuck out of the solenoid and valve, drop it back in, put the relay back in, and it fires like stock. Victory!

Guess I'll have to try some seafoam to see if that helps out with this issue at all.

@phate: I noticed when I pulled my solenoid that the fuel seemed to actually be boiling. You think it could be condensing deposits onto the non moving parts of the pump?

The jury is still out on whether or not seafoam does anything. I'm going to run another tank with it and see if everything improves.

For now, I have a different issue: I can't dial the MAF in.

Currently at idle, the car is sitting on +20 ltft wobbling between 0 and +1 stft, and this is after removing 16% or thereabouts due to previously logged -16 ltft.

Already checked all the hoses and clamps and lines and whatnot, and although my recirc hose has a crack in it, it does not go through all the way. I'm positive that if I were to hop in it and start driving it around normally right now the trims would then reduce.

Contemplating getting a new MAF sensor, or hoping that the seafoam will solve this problem (gummed up injectors maybe?).

you just have to add a tun of fuel with e 85

My trims are a mess in certain spots also. Not so much @ idle, or wot, but more in the 18-30 g/s breakpoint range.

I'm @ about -10 @ the moment, and temporarily ignoring it considering my wot afr's are on point, and I'm well within the ability of the ecu to adjust closed loop trims.

For what its worth my Maf is hitting about 4.6 volts with my stock turbo, and 300g/s. You are not maxed out yet my friend.

:dot:

At my elevation I am. Running on the edge of MBT, and 100% WGDC. No more to be had.


Anywho:

New symptoms: WOT AFRs are pretty close to spot on, but at idle the trims continue to climb; it seems this has something to do with AFR fluctuation, as my AFRs vary from 15 to 14.5.

No fucking clue what's going on, but I'll probably pull the intercooler and O2 sensor tomorrow and maybe recheck the torque on the downpipe nuts/studs just to be sure.

Idle stft slowly climbing, but ltft is at 20.3 now; though it seems like some of the values are back to where they were pre-cal.

i wouldn't go trough the trouble, pulling the dp, i have a huge t3 leak and my trims are spot on.
have you checked for boost leaks? also after the tb it is under vacuum do a running test, the old either test! and hose the intake mani, egr connections, and if it revs up you found your leak


good luck man!

If I have a leak, I think I know where it is; ran into a different problem, though, and I'm not sure anything can be done about it.

I pulled the pump earlier today and cleaned it out. The internals look new and there was only the faintest trace of sticky icky on SOME of the parts, which appears to have washed off with gas pretty easily. The problem I have now is the direct cause of my inability to make pressure and could randomly potentially cause the car to drop pressure really, really bad.

The seals around the piston shaft appear to either be slightly too big or just don't play well with the Autotech internals; it seems that sometimes the spring is not enough to retract the piston, so it will just sit there. After rebuilding and reoiling the pump, my car would not start at all after several attempts (due to only having 60 psi as read by the AP). On the attempt where it did start, I had feathered the gas while cranking as it was trying to start but could not due to fuel atomization; car ran just fine after, but it makes me worry...

No idea what I can do about this or how to go forward.
:(

I have an extra 18mm nut for the fuel pump....it just so happens to have that seal in it, lol. Lemme know!

And post pics!

Everything looks fine though, and after the first set of no starts, it's fired like factory multiple times. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

Still having cold start issues, but got it dynoed yesterday afternoon. Logs of both dynos attached; it is worth noting I did not hit my boost targets likely due to improper loading of the dyno.


Here are what some others ran (not embedding due to size):
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...112_210332.jpg

When Evan from ESTuned sends me the PDF of the dyno run, I'll post it up as well.

Just cleaned the solenoid (fully this time, complete teardown). No dice on solving cold start issues, so I'm back to thinking I either have a sticky injector or the shaft seals for the internals are too fat and need to be slimmed/replaced. There was a LOT of friction last time I broke the pump down and cleaned/lubed it all up.

...Fuck.

Can't believe I didn't see this thread before...

I've had good luck with upping the ECT HPFP pressure compensation tables at low coolant temps to 1.1. Seems the slightly higher pressure helps the fuel atomize better in the combustion chamber.


Tapadatass

Higher pressure is exactly what I can't make. It takes 3-5 seconds to even build enough pressure for it to fire. Pressure starts out at 54-60, then slowly climbs to the 350-400 needed for it to fire, and once it does, pressure is normal.

Might be time to swap injectors or at least get them cleaned.

Car is completely down right now; won't build pressure. Spill valve completely cleaned no more than 2 weeks/200 miles ago, and was not sticky/dirty when I cleaned it.

Diagnostics to begin tomorrow or Friday, will post photos/findings in this thread.

Broke the pump down and rebuilt it. Internals were caked with black nasty, but the rest of the pump looked fine. Removed and inspected the oring, and it looked fine. Also noticed that while the stock internals were as difficult to set as the Autotech, once the stock ones lined up the wear marks on the shaft with the seals, it moved quite a bit smoother.

Post rebuild, same issue with building pressure but after that it seemed ok. I get about 30 miles from home running errands and the pressure bottoms out again, and stays that way most of the trip home; occasional spikes of usable pressure, but mostly 60 ish psi.

So, I'm pretty much fucked. Going to try reinstalling the stock internals to see if it will even be drivable.

Finally took my antidepressants and broke the spill valve down for another cleaning. It was very clean except the spring for the button (which sits under the spill valve and is removed after the spill valve) was sticky. Apparently, I didn't catch this last time and after a thorough scrubbing, it builds and holds pressure now.

I need to try to convert to 50/50 mix (probably tomorrow afternoon) to see if I can get the injectors cleaned out; a full bottle of Seafoam with less than a quarter tank left did absolutely fuckall, so I'll either pop the motor or it will clean up (I'm hoping this one) or it won't do anything and I'll have to have the injectors professionally cleaned.

*Sigh*

MAJOR UPDATE

Dear (build) diary,

For lunch today I limped the car down to the gas station after waiting 5 minutes for it to warm up enough so as to be drivable (injector sticking, causing inability to make pressure on cold starts and hesitation/sputtering when lightly pressing the throttle while cold; issues all but disappear after 140 degrees ECT is reached).

At the station, I put 6 gallons of 91 in, then topped off with e85 and flashed a stock OTS stg2 91 map with 12% broad stroke MAF increase and turned the key hoping it wouldn't asplode. It almost died as the last of the pure e85 worked its way through the pump, and I crossed my fingers holding 2k rpm + feathering out of the lot and finished my errands.

At idle, car pulling -25% STFT and -1% LTFT with AFRs in the low to mid 13s. As I drove the idle became slightly better, but wasn't quite right when I shut it down after getting home about 5 hours ago.

I hop in the car and go to fire it, engine temps around 112-115 and 54 psi at the rail, and it fires like stock before the AP can even show me it's hit starting pressure. This is major as before it would take anywhere from 1-5 seconds for the engine to build enough fuel pressure to even fire; it would slowly climb to about 250-300 and THEN fire.

Revving the engine no longer had the issue with sputtering and hesitation while cold, as well; still at around 115 degrees ECT.

Tomorrow morning will be the real test, however, when I go to crank it dead cold. If it starts like factory, my next tank will be nothing but pre-popped corn, and I'm going to order a set of brakes, pads, and lines so I can go racing before Christmas!

~toot toot~

POst this stuff in the E85 thread. There are about 3 other guys having the pressure problem. This info would do well in there.

I hope tomorrow goes well bro!!!

It turned out my issue was a bad spill valve. Put in a good one a BAM! fuel pressure.


Tapadatass

Will do, Monk.

Great Enki, thanks. @silvapain, that is awesome news. I'd like to find an extra spill valve in the future to keep on the shelf myself, just in case. Were you able to determine what exactly was wrong with the faulty spill valve?

Not yet. I plan on doing an autopsy on the spill valve when I get the time.

The solenoid works fine when I put 12VDC directly to it, so my initial thought is that there is some binding or other resistance that's preventing it from actuating when the ECU commands it. The ECU uses 12VDC, but it's low amperage.


Tapadatass

Alright, so the car fired like stock this morning with ECTs of 61 degrees and rail pressure of 54 psi. I did notice a little bit of the hesitation, but it wasn't enough to affect driving at all and was pretty sporadic.

The car is still wonky with fuel trims in the very low voltage range (idle and a little higher), but elsewhere is just about dead on. Also noticed what I am assuming is spark blowout due to fuel pressure dropping (below 1400 psi) which would likely cause the injection pulse to run too long.

Not sure why pressure is dropping, as the car is only hitting 11:1 max AFR and the MAF is only scaled to 12% above OTS (which was dead on balls accurate last check on pump gas). As per @phate, could be fuel pump/solenoid related; perhaps I should buy a new pump and swap the internals into it...Thoughts?

If you can log it, blowout will log a super rich condition.

You're 100% E85 right? If so, a 12% increase in MAF scaling from pump gas isn't nearly enough. I added roughly 39% to my dialed-in pump gas MAF scale.

I'd get a spare HPFP as a backup for sure. Swap just the spill valve first; that's all I needed from my donor pump.

What plugs are you running? Going back to stock heat range plugs worked a lot better on my car.


Tapadatass

A malfunctioning spill valve solenoid will cause sudden pressure drop, not like the normal dip we see when internals can't keep up. It's pretty much all or nothing with it.

I had one other car start to lose fuel pressure after running 50/50 for a while. We think the fuel filter was starting to get clogged. Ran 1 tank of 93 with seafoam after we saw it, switched back to 50/50 right after that tank. Pressure is perfect ever since.

EDIT: UPDATED

Does blowout feel like fuel starvation? Hard to explain, but felt like momentary soft-loss of power; not steering wheel face crushing dump, but a slight, non bucking loss in power in what I would assume to be a single cylinder.

50/50 right now; as for the pump, if I get one I'm just going to swap my internals out on it and bolt it up without touching anything else.

I'll have to look into this, it was an issue with pressure ramping down below commanded pressure, but not out right failure where the shit just plummets. It looks like my internals can't hang, but that shouldn't be possible with what is being demanded with the map I'm running now.

I'll go back to my non-MAF scaled 3 gallon mix after this tank, and if that doesn't fix it I'll run a tank of just pure gas and an untouched OTS map for a while.

Car is WAY slower on this MAF scaled OTS map, though. *sigh*

I've never experienced it, but have seen it logged, as well as fixed by closing the gap down on plugs, and described as a "soft" hesitation.

Don't think gapping will fix this, as the map I'm on now is the least amount of boost I've run in quite some time, and far, far less fuel than I was flowing on pure E85. Probably the pump filter; good time to go aftermarket? ;)

When I had blowout it felt like sporadic fuel cut. Definitely sharp and noticeable.

I also noticed fuel pressure drop when I tried to hybrid tune on E85, even when I wasn't remotely close to my load targets. I fixed it by completely disabling load correction.


Tapadatass

Yeah, I'm looking into that now; though the load dynamics table is zero'd out already.

What I'm experiencing is nothing abrasive or even scary, more like a miss or noticable loss in power on one cylinder, but somewhat random.

In any case, looks like I have some logging to do; hopefully the new HPFP commanded vs actual will shed some light on this along with load values.

I also had to make all my load targets ridiculously high and unreachable. if I remember correctly I set them above 5.


Tapadatass

I'll log my load and see what it's hitting. Right now I'm only hitting boost of 16-17 PSI vs the commanded 19 that the OTS has, but my WGDC tables are probably too low.

I'll find out what's up; thanks for the input, gents.

Self managing job: +1
Working from home: +1
Living in the boonies with lots of open space and no traffic: +1

Log attached; pruned and split up into WOT sections and labeled by gear. Unfortunately, I experienced no issues during this pull except for a minor, momentary loss in power after a shift, with no indication as to what it could have been in the logs. No loss in pressure like I was seeing earlier either, so no clue wtf. Maybe it's still cleaning itself out or something, I don't know.

At any rate, I won't be driving anymore as my driver's side front rotor is now metal on metal; logging runs finished it off. :(

@phate @silvapain

This past Friday I switched back to pure e85 from 50/50 mix. The next morning I drove up to Phoenix for a NATOR meat; Only made it half way before fuel pressure tanked again. Drove the rest of the way to the meet, and popped the spill valve to find it covered in sticky death. Cleaned it up, and it ran fine....until I went home. Made it almost the whole way home when pressure tanked again. This is roughly 100-120 miles after the cleaning in Phoenix.

Well, I just tried to clean the spillvalve again only to find that the spring wasn't sticky like it was in Phoenix; rather my piston is sticky and isn't being pushed back into the cam follower like it should be.

I did learn something of interest though: A quick squirt of naphtha (lighter fluid), and the residue wipes off like water on a counter. A bit of research suggests that Sta-Bil might be mostly naptha, so I'm going to try running a low mix of e85 and naphtha to see if doing so will correct our sticky situation.

After all, adding a bit of something to the tank is MUCH easier than rebuilding the pump every hundred miles.

Speaking of rebuilding the pump: Phate, after the new year I'm probably going to hit you up for a pump.

What about something like a can of seafoam? Or half-can of seafoam every tank?

I did a full can of seafoam with less than a quarter tank left. Didn't do shit. 50/50 mix apparently didn't do anything either, and I still had to scrub the sticky shit off the spring with a toothbrush when I used 91 to clean it a while back.

I'm pretty sure naphtha is the winner, but won't know for sure until I pull the pump as a whole again and rebuild it yet again.

I can tell you MMO doesn't work either. I've been running it for the last 2K miles on E85 and I still have to clean my spill valve once a week.

Definitely post results on Sta-Bil.


Tapadatass

I remember reading that dentatured alchohol had the greatest effect on cleaning the intake valves and may be worth a try on the spill valve.

no idea if this would work, but my father says lacquer thinner doesnt' leave any residue on metal parts.

I have no idea if that's true or not, but i always planned on trying it if i had something stuborn. I have no clue if there are any rubber seals or anything non-metal on the pump or spill valve, but if it's all metal, i guess you could give it a try. i've seen the lacquer thinner in Home Depot.

no idea if this would work, but my father says lacquer thinner doesnt' leave any residue on metal parts.

I have no idea if that's true or not, but i always planned on trying it if i had something stuborn. I have no clue if there are any rubber seals or anything non-metal on the pump or spill valve, but if it's all metal, i guess you could give it a try. i've seen the lacquer thinner in Home Depot.

no idea if this would work, but my father says lacquer thinner doesnt' leave any residue on metal parts.

I have no idea if that's true or not, but i always planned on trying it if i had something stuborn. I have no clue if there are any rubber seals or anything non-metal on the pump or spill valve, but if it's all metal, i guess you could give it a try. i've seen the lacquer thinner in Home Depot.

Fuck Sta-Bil. Gonna go to the hardware store (when I get it running again) and will buy regular naphtha by the gallon (much cheaper than lighter fluid OR over the counter additives).

Just rebuilt the whole pump using lighter fluid (Ronsonol brand for now; took extremely little to get the job done, made easier by the tiny spout). The piston retainer and internals were full of black goop and it was extremely difficult to move the internals; even the spring had significant difficulty returning the piston back to ready position. I got everything cleaned out to as close to spotless as possible, but was met with a familiar issue: the piston not wanting to go back into the retainer nut easily.

Basically, it takes both hands and a fair amount of force to get the internals back in the pump; it is almost as if the internals are too big or the pump is too small clearance wise for the seals inside to work properly with the aftermarket internals (which is something I was worried about when I first went to install them).

I noticed the car would not build pressure when I went to start it after putting it back together; a quick look on the AP showed it was not building pressure past ITFP pressure. I also noticed that when it would momentarily make target pressure, that there was a distinct chirping like sound (@rfinkle2). I also noticed the same sound when It was finally holding pressure decently and I would rev the motor a little. As a side note, the internals look like they are fresh out of the package; the coating is pretty awesome.

Pretty much dead in the water at this point, aside from going back to stock internals with a half tank of e85 left; wondering if I should try a factory new HPFP (@phate), or just part out and get something port injected (rather not).

There are a few guys on here that have quite a few miles on their pumps now with that chirping, and it doesn't seem to be internal brand (cp-e pumps, autotech internals and kmd internals all do it) related.

There are also guys that haven't seen an ounce of ethanol pass their pumps (besides the 10% in the gasoline in some areas), so it doesn't seem to be directly related to e85 use.

The only common variable between all of us is that the weather has cooled down some, and it seems that the chirp is more pronounced in the cooler weather.

Going back to stock internals would tell you if the spill valve is working or not. Let me know if you want to go down the new pump road.

Denatured alcohol is ethanol with methanol added. It's denatured to make it inconsumable by humans to prevent the ATF from taxing it. That's all.


Tapadatass

I remember reading in a Cobb document that when cleaning his intake valves, Evan tried just about every auto solvent under the sun, and denatured alcohol had the greatest effect.

I wonder if injecting denatured alcohol through a meth kit would have greater cleaning properties than meth?

I didn't get the chirp until I went E85, bit it may just be coincidence.


Tapadatass

Well, all I know is that lighter fluid takes the sticky off shit with easy (wet and wipe), and when my pump is chirping it's making pressure...when it isn't, there is no audible clicking from the pump itself (found using automotive stethoscope), when normally there would be a mild click sound from the cam lobes contacting the pump/follower/etc.

This "Chirp" - Does it go away when you unplug the spill valve? I don't think I have this chirp like you guys describe, but the pump is definitely noisier when the spill valve is working.

If you want to (it won't hurt anything), when your pump is working properly, unplug the spill valve while the car is running to see what it sounds like.

Mine only does it when I rev it and very infrequently when cold. I take it this will cause the pump to run up to relief pressure?

Nope, when the spill valve is unplugged, it rests at the "spilling" position. You should only see 60psi.

If you happen to want to run it up to relief pressure, just jumper the spill valve with 12V while the car is running. I did this way back when I first started having issue :)

I'm tempted to say it is the relief valve, or something to do with the return part of the system.

You guys know more about it than I do, but just going from what I've read, and what my car is doing, the chirp occurs when the car is idling high from a cold start, or when the engine is reved.

Wait a second. Does it sound like a tiny tea kettle going off?

When I got my relief valve tested, I got to hear it let off pressure at like 2k psi. Really high pitched, but not very loud, scream.

If you want to hear what the relief valve sounds like, jumper your spill valve solenoid at idle. That fucker WILL build to over 2k psi at 800rpm, hahaha....[Just don't do it for very long.]

You may remember my testing:

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...pill_Valve.jpg

It is quick, and seems to be too distant from the driver seat to really get a good feel from where it is coming from.

It is more of a chirp than a squeal LOL.

I think it is the relief valve honestly... what is the threshold for the factory prv?

EDIT: from the graph, it looks to be very close to high idle and throttle blip operation psi.

That graph is me jumpering the spill valve, lol.

Edit: I think a short squeal from the relief valve could easily be interpreted as a "chirp".

I think we have a winna!.

Why would this be more prevalant in cold weather?

Thinking out loud... The ECU has a table to raise desired FP based on ECT. Colder engine = higher commanded fuel pressure and higher chance to open the relief valve.


Tapadatass

I thought the ECU only opened the spill valve to control pressure...

Anyways, just rebuilt the pump internals again (did not touch spill valve) with my pops present (only reason I did so was because he was confused as to how it works). Put it all back together and had a loud ass clicking sound along with the chirping when giving it a bit of throttle. Pulled the relief valve and rebuilt that; it looked super clean but I got some toothpicks and qtips and went at it again. Also lightly hammered the retainer part (the part you pry off with a screwdriver) and stretched the spring slightly on the button valve which comes out separately before putting it back together.

Fired perfectly, no chirps or clattering or nothing. I'm wondering if the spring for the button valve may be part of the chirping deal; if it isn't long enough to fully extend and press the button to the spill valve, could that cause the chirping sound?

I think we have a terminology issue here. The spill valve is not the same as the relief valve.

The spill valve is the unit on the HPFP that controls the amount of fuel into the pump. The relief valve is the unit on the far end of the fuel rail that opens at pressures greater than 1900 PSI to prevent over pressurizing of the rail.


Tapadatass

silva nailed it. Spill valve solenoid and spill valve are on the HPFP. Relief valve is just a POS ball and spring check valve that opens around 1900psi. The fuel line on your hpfp with the yellow/green square tab goes to the outlet side of the relief valve on the fuel rail.

Anyway, the ecu engages the spill valve to build pressure. Said another way, it provides voltage to make pressure. "Spill valve" is really a misnomer here, since it is normally "spilling", or not allowing pressure to build.

That little spring under the spill valve's 'button' could be the culprit. It doesn't really seem to do anything to aid in building pressure, that's a really tiny really weak spring. It may be there simply to calm down the harmonics or to keep it from slamming into the bottom piece of the spill valve, or help with alignment. IDK, someone else with the "chirp" want to stretch that thing out a bit?

I need to take my shit apart this weekend, so I'll give it a stretch.

:dance:

Yet another update. Made it a whole 20 miles before pressure started going wonky again, and on my way home did another 5-10 on only tank pressure.

My pops said he saw scoring inside the Autotech bucket (the part that the piston sits in), and has suggested I return the internals for a new set.

I will say that when I pulled the pump today, the first couple of manual compressions of the piston (still installed in the pump) felt spongy, not springy like it should have. After that, they felt pretty good, and about the same as the stock internals when installed dry.

I know I left that spill valve fucking SPOTLESS when I put it back together the last time.

You guys think I should contact Autotech and request a new set?

Pull the internals and make sure to clean the port on the side and the channel inside the barrel if you haven't already.


Tapadatass

You mean the barrel which the piston rides in, right? If so, I already did this with a naphtha soaked shop rag and a toothpick.

Yes, that's the part I was referring to.

Try putting your stock internals back in and testing your fuel pressure. That will tell you if it's bad internals.


Tapadatass

Yeah, probably do that here in a little bit, sadly.

Alright, so I rebuilt the pump yet again today. This time the internals were absolutely covered in sticky black death. This is likely because I actually lubricated the internals last time, whereas this time I used naphtha to clean/lubricate and reassemble.

So far, 30 miles in with at least a full mile of WOT, and everything is holding fine. I also have a potential 60 cent modification which, if I'm right, will greatly extend time/distances between spill cleanings.

More to follow...

.60 cents...im assuming that nifty O-ring yall are testing?

Negative, something else. I'm debating dropping it in the pump tomorrow without testing it in a bottle of fuel first, but that may not be a good idea.

It's a spring, by the way. Slightly stiffer and with less coils (meaning that they won't touch when fully compressed). this should prevent the sticky film from keeping the button valve stuck down (causing pressure to drop to ITFP pressure). It is possible, however, that a slightly stiffer spring will cause the button valve to not fully open (as the spill valve appears to be a retract and punch type valve, if that makes sense) which could cause either over-pressurizing or starvation of the pump.

Edit: It isn't shown in this photo, but the part marked "valve" should have a spring under it keeping it lifted; judging by how the solenoid actually works, I'm *ASSUMING* that the spill valve rod actually hammers this button valve open, kind of like using a rubber band to indirectly turn off a light switch.

http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...-12-250108.jpg

Interesting, this and the oring I believe phate is testing could have some promise for us. Keep us updated!!!

I'm curious...@phate: When you did the secondary spill valve operating out in the open video, how hard does the solenoid rod push out? is it a pretty beefy hit?

The plunger is held out by the solenoid's internal spring. The standard position for the plunger is out, pushing against the button, thus opening the passageway where pressure will not build.

The solenoid's action is to retract the plunger (against the internal spring) when voltage is applied. This allows the button to seat against the collar, and close off the 'spill way'.

I noticed a couple things when I had my spill valve operating outside of the pump. If I pushed on the tip of the plunger a bit, it would operate. Like If I pressed pretty hard with my finger, or used the plastic end of a screw driver.

The operation of the button is not really dependent on the button's spring (the one you want to replace). There is a volume of fuel pushing against the cup side of the button, where (when the plunger operates and retracts) the fuel pushes the button against the collar and pins it there, cutting off the spill way, and thus creating pressure.

Point of that story:

I believe you are thinking about this correctly in that it will help out. My dealings with the solenoid directly show the effect of putting slightly more pressure on the tip of the plunger. You don't want to get a spring in there that will overpower the solenoid's internal spring. If that happens, you won't be able to relieve pressure.

Also a good point to bring up in that picture is that if the check valve at the bottom of the picture sticks the pump won't operate properly either.

I have had it stick before myself and had to pull it out and clean it.


Tapadatass

The spring I have in my possession is nowhere near the compressive force of the one in the solenoid itself, and is only moderately stiffer than the one under the button; a ball point pen spring has more force.

I'm about 30 minutes or so away from having this new spring cut and dropped in my pump; I'll go drive around a bit and make sure it doesn't rust or degrade at all by checking tomorrow morning after the car has cooled down.

Aiight spring cut and installed, works fine. I'm probably going to pull it out tomorrow and bend it a bit so I have a full coil supporting the button rather than a half; should make for a more even compression.

Details on the spring: Standard Ace Hardware < $1 7/32 spring; turns out to be pretty much identical to the size of spring (diameter) that comes out of the pump, and fits loosely in the button.

Photos below.

Also, I have some strange issues with my trims and lift/light throttle enrichment. Attached is a log file at idle which shows 2% accelerator position resulting in .5% throttle position change yet almost a full point drop in AFR (richness). I'm wondering if this is potentially the result of a bad MAF calibration (from when I had no idea I had a vacuum leak) or if something wonky is going on with the map.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

My car has been bucking slightly at very light throttle input lately. I haven't had the time to do much investigation myself.


Tapadatass

Post up a log of when it happens and I'll take a look :)

Fuck my life with the jagged end of a broken broomstick. Pump to come back off the car tomorrow.

@phate: If you still have that spare retainer nut, I could probably use it at least for testing.

What piece?

The part that the internals go into (the one which normally has the big return spring on it and takes the 18mm deepwell socket). If I could borrow that part for a few days for testing, it would be much appreciated.

http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...gravestone.png

so did you throw a tantrum and beat the shit out of your pump?? sounds like something I would do...lol

Where is the sticky tar substance coming from?

Nah, I'm mostly just Eeyore right now. I did that image to try and cheer myself up, really.

I'm guessing it's because after the car shuts down, the fuel boils off inside the pump (as pressure slowly drops). It could just be a result of the fuel itself, though (meaning ultimately nothing will fix this).

I don't know for sure; time will tell.

If it's burning why would your temps be that high? If it's the fuel itself everybody would have this problem though.