Off the wagon (pink elephants and unicorns)

[Enki]

OK OK so I'm not quite off the wagon yet. I've been sipping here and there (mixed fuel), but it won't be long before I'm full on sauced.

Alright, so with the advent of OTS BT maps and whatnot, I've needed new internals for a few weeks. My hesitation to drop money on them ended two weeks ago when coming home from a local car meet (Saturday night Tucson In N Out meet) I hit 1150 PSI when rolling on the throttle in third.

So, I broke down and ordered some Autotech internals from @JP@edgeautosport.com (Thanks man!) and they arrived yesterday. Had a snafu with the tools, which prevented me from getting them installed last night, but I Just finished up my install and initial testing.

Before I comment on the photos, here is some info about my car:
2009 MS3 purchased in September of 08
Driven like stolen since about a week into ownership
29,700 miles or so on it
Only run Shell gas, and have been running 2-3 gallon mixes for a few months now


Anywho, on to the meat:

When I opened up my fuel pump, I expected to see a nasty nightmare like what everyone else sees when they open theirs.

The first thing I saw was some shit floating around in the gas. Initially, it looked like little flecks of something, but felt like a paste that smeared really easy on the paper towel:



Breaking it down further, however, I was pretty surprised (Keep in mind, these are the DIRTY pictures, fresh off the car):





Shit was so clean inside I had a hard time taking a good photo of it that wasn't all flashed out:


So, with internals install completed, I idled it for about 10 minutes then went for a short drive. About 5 miles in I goosed it a bit and pressure was stable, so I'll be doing some more testing tomorrow and potentially switching over to pure e85 in the evening (perhaps). Only thing I'm worried about is the quality of ethanol in Phoenix when I go up there for the meet on Saturday.

Back on topic of E85; some of you may be wondering what it really is. This picture sums it up:


As for my action plan, I'm going to try this first:


If that doesn't work, maybe some of this:


Updates to follow; in the meantime, a question for the resident Eth heads (@phate @glorifiedbozo):

Since my pump was so clean, do you think it would really hurt to run without the inline filter? I can't really get the line needed due to blowing my sticky wad on getting internals, but I *should* have enough to get the filter.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Enki Since my pump was so clean, do you think it would really hurt to run without the inline filter? I can't really get the line needed due to blowing my sticky wad on getting internals, but I *should* have enough to get the filter.

Worst case scenario, you see black gunk like I did. I am 99% sure my original internals were fine, but KMD just sent me some to cover their ass. Bozo isn't seeing anything, and didn't see anything in the filter...so, there is some risk, but I don't think it is too great to prevent you from trying it

[MSFer87]

Sorry to thread jack but you guys are still doing a dyno session tomorrow correct?

[phate]

Originally Posted by jdmoptiontune Sorry to thread jack but you guys are still doing a dyno session tomorrow correct?

If that's directed at me, shoot me a PM!

[Enki]

Originally Posted by phate Worst case scenario, you see black gunk like I did. I am 99% sure my original internals were fine, but KMD just sent me some to cover their ass. Bozo isn't seeing anything, and didn't see anything in the filter...so, there is some risk, but I don't think it is too great to prevent you from trying it

Yeah, honestly you wouldn't believe how clean everything actually was. I think I'll go ahead and actually give it a shot here soonish.

[TRex]

35k when i did mine

mine were super clean too... a little black residue up top in the 18mm housing but i cleaned it out

[Enki]

So apparently proper MAF scaling is important.

18 PSI spike + MAF a bit off + 10.5:1 target = 9.5:1 actual, 1300 PSI fuel pressure and maxed injectors.

Time to get to work!

[Enki]

Update:

2 tune revisions and > 300 miles later, still running strong.

[Matrix311]

Sweet! Nice meeting you today love your nook setup

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[Enki]

Well shit. Pretty sure I've hit a flow wall due to stock top mount intercooler and/or downpipe (which is catless, btw).

Seems I can't break my airflow record of 4.4 volts, which was set @ 16.5 PSI with ambient temps 50 degrees cooler than when I last logged a few hours ago. I will say that I did hit the same airflow numbers on the eth, but at only 13-14 PSI; this alone tells me the fuel is worth keeping.

Any thoughts on this guys?

[phate]

Your fine. Your turbo is probably maxed around there, so an intercooler won't help much. I haven't seen any airflow gains from aftermarket intercoolers....which is why I don't have one. Depending on intake, I'd say your 4.4V is pretty good.

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Originally Posted by Enki OK OK so I'm not quite off the wagon yet. I've been sipping here and there (mixed fuel), but it won't be long before I'm full on sauced. Alright, so with the advent of OTS BT maps and whatnot, I've needed new internals for a few weeks. My hesitation to drop money on them ended two weeks ago when coming home from a local car meet (Saturday night Tucson In N Out meet) I hit 1150 PSI when rolling on the throttle in third. So, I broke down and ordered some Autotech internals from @JP@edgeautosport.com (Thanks man!) and they arrived yesterday. Had a snafu with the tools, which prevented me from getting them installed last night, but I Just finished up my install and initial testing. Before I comment on the photos, here is some info about my car: 2009 MS3 purchased in September of 08 Driven like stolen since about a week into ownership 29,700 miles or so on it Only run Shell gas, and have been running 2-3 gallon mixes for a few months now Anywho, on to the meat: When I opened up my fuel pump, I expected to see a nasty nightmare like what everyone else sees when they open theirs. The first thing I saw was some shit floating around in the gas. Initially, it looked like little flecks of something, but felt like a paste that smeared really easy on the paper towel: Breaking it down further, however, I was pretty surprised (Keep in mind, these are the DIRTY pictures, fresh off the car): Shit was so clean inside I had a hard time taking a good photo of it that wasn't all flashed out: So, with internals install completed, I idled it for about 10 minutes then went for a short drive. About 5 miles in I goosed it a bit and pressure was stable, so I'll be doing some more testing tomorrow and potentially switching over to pure e85 in the evening (perhaps). Only thing I'm worried about is the quality of ethanol in Phoenix when I go up there for the meet on Saturday. Back on topic of E85; some of you may be wondering what it really is. This picture sums it up: As for my action plan, I'm going to try this first: If that doesn't work, maybe some of this: Updates to follow; in the meantime, a question for the resident Eth heads (@phate @glorifiedbozo): Since my pump was so clean, do you think it would really hurt to run without the inline filter? I can't really get the line needed due to blowing my sticky wad on getting internals, but I *should* have enough to get the filter.

Sorry I have been out of the loop for a few days do to computer issue's. When I originally swapped my internals they were super clean, a little bit of black gunk where the plunger sits but it was mostly superficial. It's good to see your not having any issue's with it so far, when you get the tune dialed in your gonna love it, and most other cars on the road are gonna hate you.

[Enki]

I already love it, but like Phate said earlier, I've most likely maxed my turbo already. I'm going to make one last attempt to dial the boost back up to 16 pounds on a roll on the throttle, but if that doesn't work I can't really do anything more about it.

Looks like I need to consider going big turbo now

[Enki]

Figured out my boost issue. WGDC is being halved from what I have in ATR.

FML

Edit: Attacking this from a load perspective, though I thought I already took care of it. Giving the map another once over.

[Enki]

Boost issues figured out. New dyno plot below.

Just about time to break the fuel pump down for the first time since internals were installed (somewhere near 500 miles ago) as I'm starting to see random blips of fuel pressure dropping below 1650 at WOT; these blips of low pressure are random and happen throughout the rev band. This also probably has something to do with it taking twice as long (about 2 seconds) to start the car; hesitates to build pressure before firing on a cold start.

[Enki]

OK, so just pulled the spill valve and it looked fine. I stood around for a few minute scratching my head then I noticed that the solenoid was sticky on one part; the same few micron thick film Phate had (with no residue left in filter).

I scrub the fuck out of the solenoid and valve, drop it back in, put the relay back in, and it fires like stock. Victory!

Guess I'll have to try some seafoam to see if that helps out with this issue at all.

@phate: I noticed when I pulled my solenoid that the fuel seemed to actually be boiling. You think it could be condensing deposits onto the non moving parts of the pump?

[Enki]

The jury is still out on whether or not seafoam does anything. I'm going to run another tank with it and see if everything improves.

For now, I have a different issue: I can't dial the MAF in.

Currently at idle, the car is sitting on +20 ltft wobbling between 0 and +1 stft, and this is after removing 16% or thereabouts due to previously logged -16 ltft.

Already checked all the hoses and clamps and lines and whatnot, and although my recirc hose has a crack in it, it does not go through all the way. I'm positive that if I were to hop in it and start driving it around normally right now the trims would then reduce.

Contemplating getting a new MAF sensor, or hoping that the seafoam will solve this problem (gummed up injectors maybe?).

[rigor]

you just have to add a tun of fuel with e 85

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Enki The jury is still out on whether or not seafoam does anything. I'm going to run another tank with it and see if everything improves. For now, I have a different issue: I can't dial the MAF in. Currently at idle, the car is sitting on +20 ltft wobbling between 0 and +1 stft, and this is after removing 16% or thereabouts due to previously logged -16 ltft. Already checked all the hoses and clamps and lines and whatnot, and although my recirc hose has a crack in it, it does not go through all the way. I'm positive that if I were to hop in it and start driving it around normally right now the trims would then reduce. Contemplating getting a new MAF sensor, or hoping that the seafoam will solve this problem (gummed up injectors maybe?).

My trims are a mess in certain spots also. Not so much @ idle, or wot, but more in the 18-30 g/s breakpoint range.

I'm @ about -10 @ the moment, and temporarily ignoring it considering my wot afr's are on point, and I'm well within the ability of the ecu to adjust closed loop trims.

[mrmonk7663]

For what its worth my Maf is hitting about 4.6 volts with my stock turbo, and 300g/s. You are not maxed out yet my friend.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by rigor you just have to add a tun of fuel with e 85

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 For what its worth my Maf is hitting about 4.6 volts with my stock turbo, and 300g/s. You are not maxed out yet my friend.

At my elevation I am. Running on the edge of MBT, and 100% WGDC. No more to be had.


Anywho:

New symptoms: WOT AFRs are pretty close to spot on, but at idle the trims continue to climb; it seems this has something to do with AFR fluctuation, as my AFRs vary from 15 to 14.5.

No fucking clue what's going on, but I'll probably pull the intercooler and O2 sensor tomorrow and maybe recheck the torque on the downpipe nuts/studs just to be sure.

Idle stft slowly climbing, but ltft is at 20.3 now; though it seems like some of the values are back to where they were pre-cal.

[rigor]

Originally Posted by Enki At my elevation I am. Running on the edge of MBT, and 100% WGDC. No more to be had. Anywho: New symptoms: WOT AFRs are pretty close to spot on, but at idle the trims continue to climb; it seems this has something to do with AFR fluctuation, as my AFRs vary from 15 to 14.5. No fucking clue what's going on, but I'll probably pull the intercooler and O2 sensor tomorrow and maybe recheck the torque on the downpipe nuts/studs just to be sure. Idle stft slowly climbing, but ltft is at 20.3 now; though it seems like some of the values are back to where they were pre-cal.

i wouldn't go trough the trouble, pulling the dp, i have a huge t3 leak and my trims are spot on.
have you checked for boost leaks? also after the tb it is under vacuum do a running test, the old either test! and hose the intake mani, egr connections, and if it revs up you found your leak


good luck man!

[Enki]

If I have a leak, I think I know where it is; ran into a different problem, though, and I'm not sure anything can be done about it.

I pulled the pump earlier today and cleaned it out. The internals look new and there was only the faintest trace of sticky icky on SOME of the parts, which appears to have washed off with gas pretty easily. The problem I have now is the direct cause of my inability to make pressure and could randomly potentially cause the car to drop pressure really, really bad.

The seals around the piston shaft appear to either be slightly too big or just don't play well with the Autotech internals; it seems that sometimes the spring is not enough to retract the piston, so it will just sit there. After rebuilding and reoiling the pump, my car would not start at all after several attempts (due to only having 60 psi as read by the AP). On the attempt where it did start, I had feathered the gas while cranking as it was trying to start but could not due to fuel atomization; car ran just fine after, but it makes me worry...

No idea what I can do about this or how to go forward.

[phate]

I have an extra 18mm nut for the fuel pump....it just so happens to have that seal in it, lol. Lemme know!

And post pics!

[Enki]

Everything looks fine though, and after the first set of no starts, it's fired like factory multiple times. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

[Enki]

Still having cold start issues, but got it dynoed yesterday afternoon. Logs of both dynos attached; it is worth noting I did not hit my boost targets likely due to improper loading of the dyno.

Dyno - YouTube

Dyno - YouTube

Here are what some others ran (not embedding due to size):
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...112_210332.jpg

When Evan from ESTuned sends me the PDF of the dyno run, I'll post it up as well.

[Enki]

Just cleaned the solenoid (fully this time, complete teardown). No dice on solving cold start issues, so I'm back to thinking I either have a sticky injector or the shaft seals for the internals are too fat and need to be slimmed/replaced. There was a LOT of friction last time I broke the pump down and cleaned/lubed it all up.

...Fuck.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Enki Just cleaned the solenoid (fully this time, complete teardown). No dice on solving cold start issues, so I'm back to thinking I either have a sticky injector or the shaft seals for the internals are too fat and need to be slimmed/replaced. There was a LOT of friction last time I broke the pump down and cleaned/lubed it all up. ...Fuck.

Can't believe I didn't see this thread before...

I've had good luck with upping the ECT HPFP pressure compensation tables at low coolant temps to 1.1. Seems the slightly higher pressure helps the fuel atomize better in the combustion chamber.


Tapadatass

[Enki]

Higher pressure is exactly what I can't make. It takes 3-5 seconds to even build enough pressure for it to fire. Pressure starts out at 54-60, then slowly climbs to the 350-400 needed for it to fire, and once it does, pressure is normal.

Might be time to swap injectors or at least get them cleaned.

[Enki]

Car is completely down right now; won't build pressure. Spill valve completely cleaned no more than 2 weeks/200 miles ago, and was not sticky/dirty when I cleaned it.

Diagnostics to begin tomorrow or Friday, will post photos/findings in this thread.

[Enki]

Broke the pump down and rebuilt it. Internals were caked with black nasty, but the rest of the pump looked fine. Removed and inspected the oring, and it looked fine. Also noticed that while the stock internals were as difficult to set as the Autotech, once the stock ones lined up the wear marks on the shaft with the seals, it moved quite a bit smoother.

Post rebuild, same issue with building pressure but after that it seemed ok. I get about 30 miles from home running errands and the pressure bottoms out again, and stays that way most of the trip home; occasional spikes of usable pressure, but mostly 60 ish psi.

So, I'm pretty much fucked. Going to try reinstalling the stock internals to see if it will even be drivable.

[Enki]

Finally took my antidepressants and broke the spill valve down for another cleaning. It was very clean except the spring for the button (which sits under the spill valve and is removed after the spill valve) was sticky. Apparently, I didn't catch this last time and after a thorough scrubbing, it builds and holds pressure now.

I need to try to convert to 50/50 mix (probably tomorrow afternoon) to see if I can get the injectors cleaned out; a full bottle of Seafoam with less than a quarter tank left did absolutely fuckall, so I'll either pop the motor or it will clean up (I'm hoping this one) or it won't do anything and I'll have to have the injectors professionally cleaned.

*Sigh*

[Enki]

MAJOR UPDATE

Dear (build) diary,

For lunch today I limped the car down to the gas station after waiting 5 minutes for it to warm up enough so as to be drivable (injector sticking, causing inability to make pressure on cold starts and hesitation/sputtering when lightly pressing the throttle while cold; issues all but disappear after 140 degrees ECT is reached).

At the station, I put 6 gallons of 91 in, then topped off with e85 and flashed a stock OTS stg2 91 map with 12% broad stroke MAF increase and turned the key hoping it wouldn't asplode. It almost died as the last of the pure e85 worked its way through the pump, and I crossed my fingers holding 2k rpm + feathering out of the lot and finished my errands.

At idle, car pulling -25% STFT and -1% LTFT with AFRs in the low to mid 13s. As I drove the idle became slightly better, but wasn't quite right when I shut it down after getting home about 5 hours ago.

I hop in the car and go to fire it, engine temps around 112-115 and 54 psi at the rail, and it fires like stock before the AP can even show me it's hit starting pressure. This is major as before it would take anywhere from 1-5 seconds for the engine to build enough fuel pressure to even fire; it would slowly climb to about 250-300 and THEN fire.

Revving the engine no longer had the issue with sputtering and hesitation while cold, as well; still at around 115 degrees ECT.

Tomorrow morning will be the real test, however, when I go to crank it dead cold. If it starts like factory, my next tank will be nothing but pre-popped corn, and I'm going to order a set of brakes, pads, and lines so I can go racing before Christmas!

~toot toot~

[mrmonk7663]

POst this stuff in the E85 thread. There are about 3 other guys having the pressure problem. This info would do well in there.

I hope tomorrow goes well bro!!!

[silvapain]

It turned out my issue was a bad spill valve. Put in a good one a BAM! fuel pressure.


Tapadatass

[Enki]

Will do, Monk.

[mrmonk7663]

Great Enki, thanks. @silvapain, that is awesome news. I'd like to find an extra spill valve in the future to keep on the shelf myself, just in case. Were you able to determine what exactly was wrong with the faulty spill valve?

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 Great Enki, thanks. @silvapain, that is awesome news. I'd like to find an extra spill valve in the future to keep on the shelf myself, just in case. Were you able to determine what exactly was wrong with the faulty spill valve?

Not yet. I plan on doing an autopsy on the spill valve when I get the time.

The solenoid works fine when I put 12VDC directly to it, so my initial thought is that there is some binding or other resistance that's preventing it from actuating when the ECU commands it. The ECU uses 12VDC, but it's low amperage.


Tapadatass

[Enki]

Alright, so the car fired like stock this morning with ECTs of 61 degrees and rail pressure of 54 psi. I did notice a little bit of the hesitation, but it wasn't enough to affect driving at all and was pretty sporadic.

The car is still wonky with fuel trims in the very low voltage range (idle and a little higher), but elsewhere is just about dead on. Also noticed what I am assuming is spark blowout due to fuel pressure dropping (below 1400 psi) which would likely cause the injection pulse to run too long.

Not sure why pressure is dropping, as the car is only hitting 11:1 max AFR and the MAF is only scaled to 12% above OTS (which was dead on balls accurate last check on pump gas). As per @phate, could be fuel pump/solenoid related; perhaps I should buy a new pump and swap the internals into it...Thoughts?

[rfinkle2]

If you can log it, blowout will log a super rich condition.