Off the wagon (pink elephants and unicorns)

[silvapain]

You're 100% E85 right? If so, a 12% increase in MAF scaling from pump gas isn't nearly enough. I added roughly 39% to my dialed-in pump gas MAF scale.

I'd get a spare HPFP as a backup for sure. Swap just the spill valve first; that's all I needed from my donor pump.

What plugs are you running? Going back to stock heat range plugs worked a lot better on my car.


Tapadatass

[phate]

A malfunctioning spill valve solenoid will cause sudden pressure drop, not like the normal dip we see when internals can't keep up. It's pretty much all or nothing with it.

I had one other car start to lose fuel pressure after running 50/50 for a while. We think the fuel filter was starting to get clogged. Ran 1 tank of 93 with seafoam after we saw it, switched back to 50/50 right after that tank. Pressure is perfect ever since.

[Enki]

EDIT: UPDATED

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 If you can log it, blowout will log a super rich condition.

Does blowout feel like fuel starvation? Hard to explain, but felt like momentary soft-loss of power; not steering wheel face crushing dump, but a slight, non bucking loss in power in what I would assume to be a single cylinder.

Originally Posted by silvapain You're 100% E85 right? If so, a 12% increase in MAF scaling from pump gas isn't nearly enough.

50/50 right now; as for the pump, if I get one I'm just going to swap my internals out on it and bolt it up without touching anything else.

Originally Posted by phate A malfunctioning spill valve solenoid will cause sudden pressure drop, not like the normal dip we see when internals can't keep up. It's pretty much all or nothing with it. I had one other car start to lose fuel pressure after running 50/50 for a while. We think the fuel filter was starting to get clogged. Ran 1 tank of 93 with seafoam after we saw it, switched back to 50/50 right after that tank. Pressure is perfect ever since.

I'll have to look into this, it was an issue with pressure ramping down below commanded pressure, but not out right failure where the shit just plummets. It looks like my internals can't hang, but that shouldn't be possible with what is being demanded with the map I'm running now.

I'll go back to my non-MAF scaled 3 gallon mix after this tank, and if that doesn't fix it I'll run a tank of just pure gas and an untouched OTS map for a while.

Car is WAY slower on this MAF scaled OTS map, though. *sigh*

[rfinkle2]

I've never experienced it, but have seen it logged, as well as fixed by closing the gap down on plugs, and described as a "soft" hesitation.

[Enki]

Don't think gapping will fix this, as the map I'm on now is the least amount of boost I've run in quite some time, and far, far less fuel than I was flowing on pure E85. Probably the pump filter; good time to go aftermarket?

[silvapain]

When I had blowout it felt like sporadic fuel cut. Definitely sharp and noticeable.

I also noticed fuel pressure drop when I tried to hybrid tune on E85, even when I wasn't remotely close to my load targets. I fixed it by completely disabling load correction.


Tapadatass

[Enki]

Yeah, I'm looking into that now; though the load dynamics table is zero'd out already.

What I'm experiencing is nothing abrasive or even scary, more like a miss or noticable loss in power on one cylinder, but somewhat random.

In any case, looks like I have some logging to do; hopefully the new HPFP commanded vs actual will shed some light on this along with load values.

[silvapain]

I also had to make all my load targets ridiculously high and unreachable. if I remember correctly I set them above 5.


Tapadatass

[Enki]

I'll log my load and see what it's hitting. Right now I'm only hitting boost of 16-17 PSI vs the commanded 19 that the OTS has, but my WGDC tables are probably too low.

I'll find out what's up; thanks for the input, gents.

[Enki]

Self managing job: +1
Working from home: +1
Living in the boonies with lots of open space and no traffic: +1

Log attached; pruned and split up into WOT sections and labeled by gear. Unfortunately, I experienced no issues during this pull except for a minor, momentary loss in power after a shift, with no indication as to what it could have been in the logs. No loss in pressure like I was seeing earlier either, so no clue wtf. Maybe it's still cleaning itself out or something, I don't know.

At any rate, I won't be driving anymore as my driver's side front rotor is now metal on metal; logging runs finished it off.

[Enki]

@phate @silvapain

This past Friday I switched back to pure e85 from 50/50 mix. The next morning I drove up to Phoenix for a NATOR meat; Only made it half way before fuel pressure tanked again. Drove the rest of the way to the meet, and popped the spill valve to find it covered in sticky death. Cleaned it up, and it ran fine....until I went home. Made it almost the whole way home when pressure tanked again. This is roughly 100-120 miles after the cleaning in Phoenix.

Well, I just tried to clean the spillvalve again only to find that the spring wasn't sticky like it was in Phoenix; rather my piston is sticky and isn't being pushed back into the cam follower like it should be.

I did learn something of interest though: A quick squirt of naphtha (lighter fluid), and the residue wipes off like water on a counter. A bit of research suggests that Sta-Bil might be mostly naptha, so I'm going to try running a low mix of e85 and naphtha to see if doing so will correct our sticky situation.

After all, adding a bit of something to the tank is MUCH easier than rebuilding the pump every hundred miles.

Speaking of rebuilding the pump: Phate, after the new year I'm probably going to hit you up for a pump.

[Chimmike]

What about something like a can of seafoam? Or half-can of seafoam every tank?

[Enki]

I did a full can of seafoam with less than a quarter tank left. Didn't do shit. 50/50 mix apparently didn't do anything either, and I still had to scrub the sticky shit off the spring with a toothbrush when I used 91 to clean it a while back.

I'm pretty sure naphtha is the winner, but won't know for sure until I pull the pump as a whole again and rebuild it yet again.

[silvapain]

I can tell you MMO doesn't work either. I've been running it for the last 2K miles on E85 and I still have to clean my spill valve once a week.

Definitely post results on Sta-Bil.


Tapadatass

[rfinkle2]

I remember reading that dentatured alchohol had the greatest effect on cleaning the intake valves and may be worth a try on the spill valve.

[Uberfly]

no idea if this would work, but my father says lacquer thinner doesnt' leave any residue on metal parts.

I have no idea if that's true or not, but i always planned on trying it if i had something stuborn. I have no clue if there are any rubber seals or anything non-metal on the pump or spill valve, but if it's all metal, i guess you could give it a try. i've seen the lacquer thinner in Home Depot.

no idea if this would work, but my father says lacquer thinner doesnt' leave any residue on metal parts.

I have no idea if that's true or not, but i always planned on trying it if i had something stuborn. I have no clue if there are any rubber seals or anything non-metal on the pump or spill valve, but if it's all metal, i guess you could give it a try. i've seen the lacquer thinner in Home Depot.

no idea if this would work, but my father says lacquer thinner doesnt' leave any residue on metal parts.

I have no idea if that's true or not, but i always planned on trying it if i had something stuborn. I have no clue if there are any rubber seals or anything non-metal on the pump or spill valve, but if it's all metal, i guess you could give it a try. i've seen the lacquer thinner in Home Depot.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by silvapain I can tell you MMO doesn't work either. I've been running it for the last 2K miles on E85 and I still have to clean my spill valve once a week. Definitely post results on Sta-Bil. Tapadatass

Fuck Sta-Bil. Gonna go to the hardware store (when I get it running again) and will buy regular naphtha by the gallon (much cheaper than lighter fluid OR over the counter additives).

[Enki]

Just rebuilt the whole pump using lighter fluid (Ronsonol brand for now; took extremely little to get the job done, made easier by the tiny spout). The piston retainer and internals were full of black goop and it was extremely difficult to move the internals; even the spring had significant difficulty returning the piston back to ready position. I got everything cleaned out to as close to spotless as possible, but was met with a familiar issue: the piston not wanting to go back into the retainer nut easily.

Basically, it takes both hands and a fair amount of force to get the internals back in the pump; it is almost as if the internals are too big or the pump is too small clearance wise for the seals inside to work properly with the aftermarket internals (which is something I was worried about when I first went to install them).

I noticed the car would not build pressure when I went to start it after putting it back together; a quick look on the AP showed it was not building pressure past ITFP pressure. I also noticed that when it would momentarily make target pressure, that there was a distinct chirping like sound (@rfinkle2). I also noticed the same sound when It was finally holding pressure decently and I would rev the motor a little. As a side note, the internals look like they are fresh out of the package; the coating is pretty awesome.

Pretty much dead in the water at this point, aside from going back to stock internals with a half tank of e85 left; wondering if I should try a factory new HPFP (@phate), or just part out and get something port injected (rather not).

[rfinkle2]

There are a few guys on here that have quite a few miles on their pumps now with that chirping, and it doesn't seem to be internal brand (cp-e pumps, autotech internals and kmd internals all do it) related.

There are also guys that haven't seen an ounce of ethanol pass their pumps (besides the 10% in the gasoline in some areas), so it doesn't seem to be directly related to e85 use.

The only common variable between all of us is that the weather has cooled down some, and it seems that the chirp is more pronounced in the cooler weather.

[phate]

Going back to stock internals would tell you if the spill valve is working or not. Let me know if you want to go down the new pump road.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I remember reading that dentatured alchohol had the greatest effect on cleaning the intake valves and may be worth a try on the spill valve.

Denatured alcohol is ethanol with methanol added. It's denatured to make it inconsumable by humans to prevent the ATF from taxing it. That's all.


Tapadatass

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by silvapain Denatured alcohol is ethanol with methanol added. It's denatured to make it inconsumable by humans to prevent the ATF from taxing it. That's all. Tapadatass

I remember reading in a Cobb document that when cleaning his intake valves, Evan tried just about every auto solvent under the sun, and denatured alcohol had the greatest effect.

I wonder if injecting denatured alcohol through a meth kit would have greater cleaning properties than meth?

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 There are a few guys on here that have quite a few miles on their pumps now with that chirping, and it doesn't seem to be internal brand (cp-e pumps, autotech internals and kmd internals all do it) related. There are also guys that haven't seen an ounce of ethanol pass their pumps (besides the 10% in the gasoline in some areas), so it doesn't seem to be directly related to e85 use. The only common variable between all of us is that the weather has cooled down some, and it seems that the chirp is more pronounced in the cooler weather.

I didn't get the chirp until I went E85, bit it may just be coincidence.


Tapadatass

[Enki]

Well, all I know is that lighter fluid takes the sticky off shit with easy (wet and wipe), and when my pump is chirping it's making pressure...when it isn't, there is no audible clicking from the pump itself (found using automotive stethoscope), when normally there would be a mild click sound from the cam lobes contacting the pump/follower/etc.

[phate]

This "Chirp" - Does it go away when you unplug the spill valve? I don't think I have this chirp like you guys describe, but the pump is definitely noisier when the spill valve is working.

If you want to (it won't hurt anything), when your pump is working properly, unplug the spill valve while the car is running to see what it sounds like.

[Enki]

Mine only does it when I rev it and very infrequently when cold. I take it this will cause the pump to run up to relief pressure?

[phate]

Originally Posted by Enki Mine only does it when I rev it and very infrequently when cold. I take it this will cause the pump to run up to relief pressure?

Nope, when the spill valve is unplugged, it rests at the "spilling" position. You should only see 60psi.

If you happen to want to run it up to relief pressure, just jumper the spill valve with 12V while the car is running. I did this way back when I first started having issue

[rfinkle2]

I'm tempted to say it is the relief valve, or something to do with the return part of the system.

You guys know more about it than I do, but just going from what I've read, and what my car is doing, the chirp occurs when the car is idling high from a cold start, or when the engine is reved.

[phate]

Wait a second. Does it sound like a tiny tea kettle going off?

When I got my relief valve tested, I got to hear it let off pressure at like 2k psi. Really high pitched, but not very loud, scream.

If you want to hear what the relief valve sounds like, jumper your spill valve solenoid at idle. That fucker WILL build to over 2k psi at 800rpm, hahaha....[Just don't do it for very long.]

You may remember my testing:

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by phate Wait a second. Does it sound like a tiny tea kettle going off? When I got my relief valve tested, I got to hear it let off pressure at like 2k psi. Really high pitched, but not very loud, scream. If you want to hear what the relief valve sounds like, jumper your spill valve solenoid at idle. That fucker WILL build to over 2k psi at 800rpm, hahaha....[Just don't do it for very long.] You may remember my testing:

It is quick, and seems to be too distant from the driver seat to really get a good feel from where it is coming from.

It is more of a chirp than a squeal LOL.

I think it is the relief valve honestly... what is the threshold for the factory prv?

EDIT: from the graph, it looks to be very close to high idle and throttle blip operation psi.

[phate]

That graph is me jumpering the spill valve, lol.

Edit: I think a short squeal from the relief valve could easily be interpreted as a "chirp".

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by phate That graph is me jumpering the spill valve, lol. Edit: I think a short squeal from the relief valve could easily be interpreted as a "chirp".

I think we have a winna!.

Why would this be more prevalant in cold weather?

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I think we have a winna!. Why would this be more prevalant in cold weather?

Thinking out loud... The ECU has a table to raise desired FP based on ECT. Colder engine = higher commanded fuel pressure and higher chance to open the relief valve.


Tapadatass

[Enki]

Originally Posted by silvapain Thinking out loud... The ECU has a table to raise desired FP based on ECT. Colder engine = higher commanded fuel pressure and higher chance to open the relief valve.

I thought the ECU only opened the spill valve to control pressure...

Anyways, just rebuilt the pump internals again (did not touch spill valve) with my pops present (only reason I did so was because he was confused as to how it works). Put it all back together and had a loud ass clicking sound along with the chirping when giving it a bit of throttle. Pulled the relief valve and rebuilt that; it looked super clean but I got some toothpicks and qtips and went at it again. Also lightly hammered the retainer part (the part you pry off with a screwdriver) and stretched the spring slightly on the button valve which comes out separately before putting it back together.

Fired perfectly, no chirps or clattering or nothing. I'm wondering if the spring for the button valve may be part of the chirping deal; if it isn't long enough to fully extend and press the button to the spill valve, could that cause the chirping sound?

[silvapain]

I think we have a terminology issue here. The spill valve is not the same as the relief valve.

The spill valve is the unit on the HPFP that controls the amount of fuel into the pump. The relief valve is the unit on the far end of the fuel rail that opens at pressures greater than 1900 PSI to prevent over pressurizing of the rail.


Tapadatass

[phate]

Originally Posted by Enki I thought the ECU only opened the spill valve to control pressure... Anyways, just rebuilt the pump internals again (did not touch spill valve) with my pops present (only reason I did so was because he was confused as to how it works). Put it all back together and had a loud ass clicking sound along with the chirping when giving it a bit of throttle. Pulled the relief valve and rebuilt that; it looked super clean but I got some toothpicks and qtips and went at it again. Also lightly hammered the retainer part (the part you pry off with a screwdriver) and stretched the spring slightly on the button valve which comes out separately before putting it back together. Fired perfectly, no chirps or clattering or nothing. I'm wondering if the spring for the button valve may be part of the chirping deal; if it isn't long enough to fully extend and press the button to the spill valve, could that cause the chirping sound?

silva nailed it. Spill valve solenoid and spill valve are on the HPFP. Relief valve is just a POS ball and spring check valve that opens around 1900psi. The fuel line on your hpfp with the yellow/green square tab goes to the outlet side of the relief valve on the fuel rail.

Anyway, the ecu engages the spill valve to build pressure. Said another way, it provides voltage to make pressure. "Spill valve" is really a misnomer here, since it is normally "spilling", or not allowing pressure to build.

That little spring under the spill valve's 'button' could be the culprit. It doesn't really seem to do anything to aid in building pressure, that's a really tiny really weak spring. It may be there simply to calm down the harmonics or to keep it from slamming into the bottom piece of the spill valve, or help with alignment. IDK, someone else with the "chirp" want to stretch that thing out a bit?

[rfinkle2]

I need to take my shit apart this weekend, so I'll give it a stretch.

[Enki]

Yet another update. Made it a whole 20 miles before pressure started going wonky again, and on my way home did another 5-10 on only tank pressure.

My pops said he saw scoring inside the Autotech bucket (the part that the piston sits in), and has suggested I return the internals for a new set.

I will say that when I pulled the pump today, the first couple of manual compressions of the piston (still installed in the pump) felt spongy, not springy like it should have. After that, they felt pretty good, and about the same as the stock internals when installed dry.

I know I left that spill valve fucking SPOTLESS when I put it back together the last time.

You guys think I should contact Autotech and request a new set?

[silvapain]

Pull the internals and make sure to clean the port on the side and the channel inside the barrel if you haven't already.


Tapadatass

[Enki]

You mean the barrel which the piston rides in, right? If so, I already did this with a naphtha soaked shop rag and a toothpick.