Off the wagon (pink elephants and unicorns)

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Enki You mean the barrel which the piston rides in, right? If so, I already did this with a naphtha soaked shop rag and a toothpick.

Yes, that's the part I was referring to.

Try putting your stock internals back in and testing your fuel pressure. That will tell you if it's bad internals.


Tapadatass

[Enki]

Yeah, probably do that here in a little bit, sadly.

[Enki]

Alright, so I rebuilt the pump yet again today. This time the internals were absolutely covered in sticky black death. This is likely because I actually lubricated the internals last time, whereas this time I used naphtha to clean/lubricate and reassemble.

So far, 30 miles in with at least a full mile of WOT, and everything is holding fine. I also have a potential 60 cent modification which, if I'm right, will greatly extend time/distances between spill cleanings.

More to follow...

[mrmonk7663]

.60 cents...im assuming that nifty O-ring yall are testing?

[Enki]

Negative, something else. I'm debating dropping it in the pump tomorrow without testing it in a bottle of fuel first, but that may not be a good idea.

It's a spring, by the way. Slightly stiffer and with less coils (meaning that they won't touch when fully compressed). this should prevent the sticky film from keeping the button valve stuck down (causing pressure to drop to ITFP pressure). It is possible, however, that a slightly stiffer spring will cause the button valve to not fully open (as the spill valve appears to be a retract and punch type valve, if that makes sense) which could cause either over-pressurizing or starvation of the pump.

Edit: It isn't shown in this photo, but the part marked "valve" should have a spring under it keeping it lifted; judging by how the solenoid actually works, I'm *ASSUMING* that the spill valve rod actually hammers this button valve open, kind of like using a rubber band to indirectly turn off a light switch.

[mrmonk7663]

Interesting, this and the oring I believe phate is testing could have some promise for us. Keep us updated!!!

[Enki]

I'm curious...@phate: When you did the secondary spill valve operating out in the open video, how hard does the solenoid rod push out? is it a pretty beefy hit?

[phate]

The plunger is held out by the solenoid's internal spring. The standard position for the plunger is out, pushing against the button, thus opening the passageway where pressure will not build.

The solenoid's action is to retract the plunger (against the internal spring) when voltage is applied. This allows the button to seat against the collar, and close off the 'spill way'.

I noticed a couple things when I had my spill valve operating outside of the pump. If I pushed on the tip of the plunger a bit, it would operate. Like If I pressed pretty hard with my finger, or used the plastic end of a screw driver.

The operation of the button is not really dependent on the button's spring (the one you want to replace). There is a volume of fuel pushing against the cup side of the button, where (when the plunger operates and retracts) the fuel pushes the button against the collar and pins it there, cutting off the spill way, and thus creating pressure.

Point of that story:

I believe you are thinking about this correctly in that it will help out. My dealings with the solenoid directly show the effect of putting slightly more pressure on the tip of the plunger. You don't want to get a spring in there that will overpower the solenoid's internal spring. If that happens, you won't be able to relieve pressure.

[silvapain]

Also a good point to bring up in that picture is that if the check valve at the bottom of the picture sticks the pump won't operate properly either.

I have had it stick before myself and had to pull it out and clean it.


Tapadatass

[Enki]

The spring I have in my possession is nowhere near the compressive force of the one in the solenoid itself, and is only moderately stiffer than the one under the button; a ball point pen spring has more force.

I'm about 30 minutes or so away from having this new spring cut and dropped in my pump; I'll go drive around a bit and make sure it doesn't rust or degrade at all by checking tomorrow morning after the car has cooled down.

[Enki]

Aiight spring cut and installed, works fine. I'm probably going to pull it out tomorrow and bend it a bit so I have a full coil supporting the button rather than a half; should make for a more even compression.

Details on the spring: Standard Ace Hardware < $1 7/32 spring; turns out to be pretty much identical to the size of spring (diameter) that comes out of the pump, and fits loosely in the button.

Photos below.

Also, I have some strange issues with my trims and lift/light throttle enrichment. Attached is a log file at idle which shows 2% accelerator position resulting in .5% throttle position change yet almost a full point drop in AFR (richness). I'm wondering if this is potentially the result of a bad MAF calibration (from when I had no idea I had a vacuum leak) or if something wonky is going on with the map.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[silvapain]

My car has been bucking slightly at very light throttle input lately. I haven't had the time to do much investigation myself.


Tapadatass

[Enki]

Post up a log of when it happens and I'll take a look

[Enki]

Fuck my life with the jagged end of a broken broomstick. Pump to come back off the car tomorrow.

@phate: If you still have that spare retainer nut, I could probably use it at least for testing.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Enki Fuck my life with the jagged end of a broken broomstick. Pump to come back off the car tomorrow. phate: If you still have that spare retainer nut, I could probably use it at least for testing.

What piece?

[Enki]

The part that the internals go into (the one which normally has the big return spring on it and takes the 18mm deepwell socket). If I could borrow that part for a few days for testing, it would be much appreciated.

[Dano]

so did you throw a tantrum and beat the shit out of your pump?? sounds like something I would do...lol

[b4n30n3]

Where is the sticky tar substance coming from?

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Dano so did you throw a tantrum and beat the shit out of your pump?? sounds like something I would do...lol

Nah, I'm mostly just Eeyore right now. I did that image to try and cheer myself up, really.

Originally Posted by b4n30n3 Where is the sticky tar substance coming from?

I'm guessing it's because after the car shuts down, the fuel boils off inside the pump (as pressure slowly drops). It could just be a result of the fuel itself, though (meaning ultimately nothing will fix this).

I don't know for sure; time will tell.

[b4n30n3]

If it's burning why would your temps be that high? If it's the fuel itself everybody would have this problem though.

[Enki]

Everyone on high concentrations of E has similar issues with the spill valve. My pump issues are more severe; fuel quality may be lower where I live (hence more rebuilds).

[b4n30n3]

Ah, an ethanol phenomenon. I see.

So you think the pump normally gets hot enough to burn the ethanol under standard operating conditions?

[phate]

The sticky tar substance is NOT limited to the E85 cars. The gas cars get it, as well, but the gas can dissolve it and carry it away much more easily, it seems.

I've gotten E85 from all over the state - Chicago region, Champaign, and southern IL and Tennessee. None of them are better than the other, and the issues are still present. I don't think fuel quality is an issue, as I'm sure I've hit numerous suppliers and probably 20 different E85 stations in my adventures (lol).

To summarize where I think we're at:

I think we all reasonably agree that one (big) issue is oil getting past the O-Ring which seals the internals' main piston. My mass spec reading showed oil additives, and the only place where we can get that is past that O-ring.

Another possibility, and a much worse scenario, is that another substance is inherent to the E85 and is causing issue when subjected to the heat/pressure of our HPFP. We have not been able to identify this substance.

Nowhere upstream of the HPFP has anything like what we're seeing in the HPFP internals/spill valve. We don't know if anything downstream (fuel rail/injectors) have this type of build up. None of the E85 folks have done this (yet).

[Enki]

Originally Posted by phate I think we all reasonably agree that one (big) issue is oil getting past the O-Ring which seals the internals' main piston. My mass spec reading showed oil additives, and the only place where we can get that is past that O-ring.

Judging by what I've seen in the past few days, I have to agree.

Pump off the car; prognosis: Spill valve is fine (no part of it is sticky except the button valve receiver, and only on the outside; I did NOT clean that part yesterday), internals (both piston and the displacement part that goes around it) are covered in black death. Seems that the naphtha/91 mix I have washes it away easily, so I guess my only choice is to go back to a low mix in order to retain long-term drive-ability of the car.

When removing the piston from the part that surrounds it, I had to let the piece warm up; I actually removed both at once from the retaining nut via pulling only on the outer piece.

What a mess; let's just hope it doesn't happen again while on low mix and cause the car to pop.

[b4n30n3]

What about searching for flex fuel e85 vehicles that use direct injection. And looking at the fuel pumps on those to see what is different from yours.

[b4n30n3]

One more question. Have you tried converting back to gasoline and run it awhile and see if the gum clears up from just the gasoline running through it?

[Enki]

50/50 mix did not remove the sticky film. I'm hoping it gets rid of the black death though. I'll know more tomorrow.

[Enki]

Pump off and back on again; there was slight buildup of black death where it mattered, but there was also a quarter tank of pure e run on the car prior to switching to 50/50. Gonna go race it here in an hour, and light permitting, pull the pump again this afternoon (maybe, might wait until tomorrow).

[Enki]

Went and raced yesterday. Second session (in video) ended early as I saw a split second drop to below 500 psi in pump history; car ran completely fine afterwards though, if occasionally dropping slightly under commanded pressure (740) at idle.

Video of me on street tires trying not to wreck/go off track:

Getting better (Auto-X on go-kart track) - YouTube

Getting better (Auto-X on go-kart track) - YouTube

[Enki]

Pressure dip happened again today on my way to the bank. Dipped below 500 (commanded minimum is 740), but it happened off-throttle and possibly when changing gears. I beat the shit out of it on the way home, and it held pressure just fine, especially where it matters (and the car is targeting 11.5 AFR). Gonna work this map up a bit more with added timing and some load/wgdc recalibration so it isn't a pig in lower rpms.

[Enki]

More information on the above from a log I took on the way home (WOT log):

HPFP Act. Press. (PSI)	HPFP Des. Press. (PSI)
819.43	291.52
819.43	291.52
819.43	291.52
822.34	291.52
819.43	291.52
819.43	291.52
1168.96	1134.16
1176.21	1144.31
1126.9	1372.01
1693.98	1669.33
1696.88	1669.33
1709.93	1669.33
1707.03	1669.33

The only place that specific number shows up in any table related to HPFP is the ECT Desired Pressure Max A table, and only in the -40 F value...logged temp was 183.2.

...WTF?

[rfinkle2]

Sorry for the off topic post Enki, but what exhaust do you have? Sounds good, imo.

[Enki]

Stock downpipe, stock midpipe, both catless, and Magnaflow catback. It's actually a bit tinny as I have header wrap around the part of the exhaust that goes over the center reinforcement (which you take off to do major exhaust work); the rear exhaust hangars are stretched and it rattles annoyingly if it isn't wrapped. I'm hoping the downpipe will resolve that issue tomorrow though.

[b4n30n3]

How did you break the catalytic material? Does it throw a code with cats emptied?

[Enki]

OK, just ran up to Phoenix where @86azms3 sold and did a lot of the install of a CNT racing downpipe with integrated race pipe. Shit is loud now (in a good way).

Anywho, just got back a few minutes ago, and fuel pressure history is smooth; it would go jagged just before the pump would take a shit, so this is good news.

After 500 miles, 50/50 mix seems to keep the black death at bay...for now. Also, no gripes from the spring mod, either; I should probably pull it tomorrow to see how it's doing though. (Thanks Corey for making that fuel pump SST for me!)

Originally Posted by b4n30n3 How did you break the catalytic material? Does it throw a code with cats emptied?

1. Prybar/rebar/long ass screwdriver and 2. Yes, it will (turn off with AP).
If you want easy, I'll probably be selling my gutted downpipe and midpipe soonish.

[b4n30n3]

The code was my main problem with it. I wanted to freemod. I will have to leave them stock.

[Enki]

Exhaust sample (pump still 100% btw):

CNT Downpipe + Magnaflow Catback - YouTube

CNT Downpipe + Magnaflow Catback - YouTube

[Dano]

glad to hear your pump is holding up fine on the 5050 mix. I would guess almost any mix with some dino juice would keep the pump clean.

[Enki]

Higher mixes probably wouldn't keep the pump clean, unfortunately.

[Dano]

I dont plan on going any higher than 5050 anyway.


Tappin