What's the temp of the fuel in the rail? John, didn't you have some data on it?

I'd wager one of two ways:
1. The scraper wears slightly, allowing a small amount to slip past; this then gets partially scraped off on the release stroke of the piston and starts to build up.

2. Oil goes around the scraper and past the oring on the other side of the scraper, and is flushed out with fuel.


If 2 is correct, then the plan with RTV and the new scraper will probably fix the issue and there won't be ANY black death in the pump EVER again. I seriously hope this is the case.

Only surface temps, but I don't see how temps would open the rail valve. We can see pressure, and we all know that the rail valve is a mechanical part that opens at or around 1800 psi. If the fuel is boiling and the rail valve is opening, we would be able to see 1800 psi with the car off, key on.

This could be possible. The next fuel pump I get that has black death on it I will perform a drag test on the seals to see if they are worn out and compare them to a new seal.

I'm guessing there's no way to do what I was thinking, then, eh? (running fuel thru after shutdown to cool it without boiling.)

i'll add in as well...

I've listened to the buzzing noise and it honestly does sound like it's coming from the TB area as well as the VCTS actuator area...

only buzzing noise I ever heard after shut down...

i've used e85 a few times on my stock internals...

the rule was I am still sending you back my stock fuel stuff when I install your stuff?

you send my other box out yet?

and thank you I got my care package!

You'd have to convert it to a return style system (which correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it is).

Perhaps I spoke with too broad of words.

There may be some noises that are coming from the TB. I know for a fact, though, that I have heard my PRV opening right after turning my car off, and I've sat with the KOEO after driving, and seen Fuel tail pressures climb significantly.


Tapadatass

If I start my car even just for 10 seconds, then turn it off, I still get noises (almost electronic sounding) from the TB area. This shouldn't be long enough to boil the fuel, so the PRV noise you hear may in fact be the fuel boiling, but I haven't heard it myself.

The only way it would be possible for the PRV to open would be from fuel pressure or a failing PRV. If you have fuel pressure climbing to 1800 psi with the key off, I would check your rail sensor for a possible loose connector or bad sensor.

Hope this helps.

Even a return style system wouldn't cool the fuel inside the fuel pump. It would cool the head, but the rail, hard line and fuel pump are all on the high side of the fuel system, and this is the side that would be getting all the heat. The return system cannot get cool fuel into that side.

And? This thread is about stopping the sticky and black death from building up, not squeaky PRVs. Cooling the fuel pump with fuel could very possibly fix both issues when the car is shut down; meaning, it is a possible solution to both problems.

There wont be any fuel flow through the pump with a return system. The closest you could put a return is the inlet on the HPFP. Everything forward of that is going to be deadheaded.

If you T'd off the return from the rail fuel would flow around that stalk area, and potentially pull a little bit of heat from the pump at least.

That is not where the heat is coming from. It could potentially help the pump housing, but the fuel that is causing the black death will not see any "flow" because of the system design.

If you T'd off the high pressure side you would have to have a solenoid or similar to make sure it isn't bypassing with the motor on, we don't have a ton of extra flow to play with to be sending it down a bypass under operation.

I meant the return line that goes back into the HPFP; the one with the yellow clip.

Thanks again to @az_jayc for picking up the sample. Shit looks good and fades out towards one end, which will make for a great test (the un-coated edge should hopefully get sticky while the coated edge does not).

Pending arrival of sacrificial hot-plate for testing, and arrival of the fuel pump I paid for over a week ago (not sure if it even shipped yet) before any more progress can be made on my end.

There is still no flow through the fuel pump. Both lines meet at the head of the fuel pump and will not get deep enough into the fuel pump to cool the area where the black death occurs.

UPDATE:

Secondary pump showed up today; it appears to be a re-manufactured pump, but came with the hard line and cam cage (the part the pump actually bolts to that also bolts to the head). Can't really beat that for $170 shipped.

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to swap the internals out today, as I will be visiting urgent care for possible pneumonia (yay!). At any rate, still waiting for the hotplate, and I also need to know how to fully disassemble the spill valve (can't quite figure out how to get the retaining clips out to pull the barrel assembly, if that's what it's called).

You just push the center section down. Meaning apply pressure on the connector side, and it will pop out ~.125", and the c-clips will slide right out. From there, you push the center section out the other way, towards the connector side.

Man the fuck up and start testing.

J/k hope you feel better. Had a bout with "Walking pneumonia" that I didn't take seriously and ended up with full blown pneumonia and a hospital stay. Shit was no joke.

This is why I'm going in. I can't afford the long downtime with my job (boss won't care, but I do).

take your time. I was still wrestling back then and pushed myself through a two day tournament, ended up being down for 10 days instead of a few.

subbed

Quantaseal Nano Protective Coating

Something we just picked up. I am going to test a few parts and see how it works out. Seems like its pretty good stuff and its chemical resistant.

Enki, or ??? let me know if you want me to coat a few parts for free.

Thanks,

John

I can send you a spare spill valve to coat.

The coating would work better on the retainer/nut vs the spill valve. I don't think the spill valve would be a good candidate for this, but maybe.

That's the part that is causing all the trouble for us on high Ethanol concentrations.


Tapadatass

How are they coating the spill valve? You will not be able to get to the control pin or inside where it sits. Are you talking about the rail valve? Or spill valve?

The solenoid plunger comes out, so it could all be done pretty easily.

I'm surprised it took so long, but why's he banned this time?

WTH happened now lol?

+1

Christ, it isn't relevant.

Keeping on topic, I sent a message to that Quantaseal place explaining the situation and requesting a sample (on my dime of course).

Y Y Y Y Y Y

Wtf why did John get banned?

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There's a thread about John's banning. Do a search.

Back on topic people.

@Enki, I have a spare HPFP if you need one for testing. The spill valve is questionable on it though.

Tapadatass

The one I ordered showed up yesterday. Not sure how "good" it is yet, but time will tell.

I'm groaning the next fucker who asks. Once Enki's back up and healthy hopefully this will go somewhere.

I'm swapping the pump on my car by Saturday afternoon, and will be doing the test then as well. Even if it takes me all day to do it.

Just got off the phone with the people that make Quantaseal; they only really sell it and don't do the coating themselves, which would explain why they never answered my email.

Unfortunately, 1 pint (clear liquid) is $450... but that should be enough to do over a hundred pumps IMO.

I'm feeling pretty decent so may get around to testing the Jet-Hot sample this afternoon (as work cuts out early today anyways).

It seems quantaseal isn't really designed for wear-and-tear items, more like a coating just to keep stuff off, lol. Did you ask them if they thought it would benefit our situation?

Well the fact that I'd have to drop $450 to test kind of removes them from the running in the first place. Also seeing the video where they spray the entire body of a car with the stuff leads me to believe you are correct in your assessment, Phate.

MAJOR UPDATE:

Testing completed; or as complete as it's gonna get for now. I didn't quite get through the entire gallon of e85 due to hilarious autoignition fireball that shot forth from the pan. As a side note, this is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever done.

The kit:
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...323_162634.jpg

The sample:
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...323_162640.jpg

The testing:
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...323_163240.jpg

Testing (click for video):
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...323_173852.jpg
This video was taken towards the end of testing; the burner is on high as I found out that the capability of e85 to pull heat out of the surrounding container meant that just 15 seconds after removing it from the burner (which was on medium) I could hold the pan in the palm of my hand with no ill effects. It was fucking incredible.

After first test (the yellow stuff is what e85 boils down to, literally; seems to be an oily substance but is NOT sticky):
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...323_164452.jpg
The interesting thing here is that the sample came out of the first and second tests just like it went in; also, there was no sign of sticky in the pan after either test as well, just a thin, oily film.

Third test with a couple drops of Rotella:
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...323_170700.jpg
I found it interesting that when I tried to mix the oil with the e, I only wound up breaking the oil up into smaller droplets which would not mix with the fuel.

Oil doesn't like being in e; please excuse the sound, have bronchitis and a sinus infection and can barely breathe (click for video):
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...323_170703.jpg

Strangely, there was no sticky and the oil did not look to be affected at all; it was just chillin in droplet form in the pan still.

After the third test I went for broke and added a capful of Rotella to the pan, and THEN added the e so that I could get a nice coverage of the pan and sample with the oil; I figured the boiling action would break up the oil into small droplets, and that is pretty much exactly what happened.

As it turns out, leaving the burner on high for more than 15 minutes leads to an inevitable fire; I seriously doubt I hit the autoignition point of the e; it is more likely that some splashed out and touched the burner or something. Who knows?

After the fire, towel still smoking (note: ethanol vapors will go right through a towel and stay on fire, lol!):
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...3_175226-1.jpg

Yes, it was still smoking/glowing. I tried to get pictures of it on fire, but fuel fire in front yard is a little more important. Also, the contents of the pan looks milky due to me having thrown a bit of water into it.

And now for the most interesting photo of them all:
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...323_175930.jpg

The really interesting thing about this last photo is the fact that the clean looking area in the red circle is the only place that isn't sticky. With the amount of oil in the pan through the last three test pours (all done live with a hot burner which is a very very fucking bad idea), I had a pretty good idea that the splotches on the sample and pan were actually the oil. It is likely that the oil breaks down slightly at lower than normal temperatures when exposed to the ethanol fuel; this assumption (let's face it, it's an assumption) is based on the fact that boiling the fuel out on the first three tests yielded NO abnormal result (no sticky) whatsoever, and only after the significant quantity of oil was added to higher temperatures was the sticky substance seen.

It is also worth noting that not once did any ethanol boil off of the sample plate, as it simply would not get hot enough. This is visible in the boiling video where you can see the fuel actually boils AROUND the sample piece instead of off of it (and it was touching the pan on that red-circled area the whole time).

TLDR:
We may be able to fix both sticky and black deaths (which appear to be related) by finding an oil which is consumed/dissolved/totally unaffected by e85 fuel.

Ideas on such an oil? Is there an oil made that is said to be compatible with e85?

From earlier in the thread (page 2, actually):

Another thing:
I engine brake alot. ALOT. High rpm likely allows for more oil to bypass the seals/scraper orings as the oil is more likely to go around something or cause a seal to stretch when the hydraulic (scraping/surface) forces are higher.

If this is the case, the PTFE scraper combined with a solid "Right Stuff" silicone gasket goop seal behind it will likely fix the issue 100% (both the black death AND the sticky icky).

Nothing conclusive yet though. After we get a few guys on some different oils, hopefully we can get some answers. Then, I just have to find a damn e85 station closer than 45 minutes away.

Jay and I were recently discussing oils and he did come across one marketed for flex fuel vehicles.

@GLORIFIEDBOZO

Sorry havent been on here much lately, been busy at work and home. Will jump on my computer in the morning and post a couple of things I found

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I found this...it is an additive for conventional oil specifically formulated (so they say) for E85. Product Page-ATF, lubricants, oil, motor oil, lubricants, synthetic, synthetic motor oil, additives zinc additives, boost additives Scroll down and its called Midco's Flex Pac™ Ultimate Engine Protection for Flex fuel cars and trucks! Someone should test this stuff.

I've been reading up on these flex fuel oils/additives. It seems they all pertain to the formation of acids due to water content in the fuel.

That said, I live in Arizona, and had serious black death problems well before the humidity here went into the double digits. Also, my testing from earlier showed no effect on the oil boiled in eth on moderate heat, only on the oil boiled at the highest temperature that the hotplate could put out, and likely this heat is what is causing the oil to gum up, not the fuel. I am sure regular gasoline would clean most of this stuff off pretty easily, and I will be testing naphtha as a cleaning agent to see if it behaves the same on both the sample and on the pan I boiled the fuel in.

I say order a bottle of that additive, or something similar. Combine it with the rotella oil, then repeat the test you did tonight and see if anything changes.

Only if you bring the marshmallows.

Lol

Alright, so as I mentioned before, I didn't seem to have gunk issue's until I swapped oil from Royal Purple 5-30 to Rotella T-6 5-40. Since I got a bad oil sample back from the RP, I decided to go with something different. As clint mentioned earlier while looking for a new oil I started reading some labels, and found that on the back of the Valvoline VR1 full racing synthetic it said recommended for gas and alcohol applications. The other oil that I found was the Ford Motorcraft SynBlend 5-30, on the back it said recommended for use with E85 vehicles using 5-30. I found in a few place saying that as long as it's GL-5 full synthetic it should be fine, however the MC is a synblend. Found a couple of letters from Brad Penn Oil to it's distributors, the first concerning gumming in 2 stroke motors using E85 and the second a follow on concerning passenger vehicles.

Edit: I'm sure most of you know but for those who don't, Rotella T-6 falls under the CI-4 catagory

Currently running 93, but will most likely pull the pump, clean it and swap to full E85 on my next tank to see how the VR1 does with it.

I'm attaching the API motor oil guide, both letters from Brad Penn Oil, and the VR1 synthetic product info(it no longer comes in 5w-30 in API SL catagory). Monday I also plan on email/calling the 2 guys from the bottom of the Penn letter, Valvoline, RP and Ford parts to see what I can find.

I also found some references on Bob the Oil guy forums, but after reading what those guys thought about E85, I trust what they had to say about as much as I trust my first wife not to lie to me.

Edit 2: I don't think the bad oil sample was due to the Royal Purple, I was just a bit hesitant when it first came back. If someone else would try it, the Motorcraft (if they mind using a synblend), or something else they can find, maybe Redline, and let the rest of us know how it works out that would be great.

Edit 3: Also going to contact Midco and see if I can't get some more info on their product.

Hmm I'll see if I can locate some of this newfangled Shell Helix stuff for my next change.

If we determine a few different oil brand to test out, I'm willing to be one of the guinea pigs.

An article about GL-5 and GM's new 'dexos 1' oil, and how it relates to turbos and E85:

GM's New Engine Oil: Use It Or Else!

dexos Licensed oils:

http://www.gmdexos.com/licensedbrand...sedbrands.html

The Helix Ultra I'm going to try to find is on the list of dexos 1 oils.

Hell, Mobil1 5W-30 is on the list and is readily available at AutoZone. Think I'll pick up a few quarts and try it out.

I thought Mobil had piss-poor oil reports tho?

Good point. Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 is also on the dexos 1 list and is GF-5.

I assume Ultra is, too?... since I'm running it :)

off-topic: 2gal E85 a fill-up and no known issues from the butt-dyno. The money saved on those two gallons is mind-boggling.

It's 3.369 / gal vs. 4.189 / gal for 93.

O_o

I have had no HPFP issues on E50 (6 gallons 93 pump gas and 7 gallons E85). Most people only have issues on 100% E85.


Tapadatass

... E47.2
:cool2:

You may not need to; how's this for interesting:

I just got done pulling my pump (as I was only running the two x shaped o rings as I cut the scraper out of my pump and replaced it with an x-shaped oring) and guess what I saw?

Shit was clean. Like, I had just cleaned it clean. The tiniest bit of black death made its presence known only after i had fucked around with the piston sans spring/collar. The only thing that worries me about this is whether or not fuel is going into the head; I would assume no, otherwise it would be doing that anyways, but you never know.

Turns out my ITFP might be shitting the bed; P0091 MAZDA - Fuel Pressure Regulator Solenoid 1 Control Circit Low Voltage.

Get that one that fits that's in that other thread I saw the other day.

...lol

Pump gas is E10 here in IL.

6 * 0.90 + 7 * 0.15 = 6.45 gallons gas

6 * 0.10 + 7 * 0.85 = 6.55 gallons Ethanol

E50.4


Tapadatass

haha

I think only the one pump here uses E15, but I was just busting your balls.
It's so fucked that we look into this shit LOL

Fuck I wish we had B85.

Why did...

J/k. Anyhow, I see the Dexos info and PP 5w30 is listed. Were all of the guys who were running 100% e85 running rotella?

I'm on Rotella still.


Tapadatass

Except for GB, yeah. He didn't have issues on Royal Purple other than questionable test results.

lol, great minds think alike!

@rfinkle2 I started having issue's when I switched to Rotella

I am really surprised that none of you use Pennzoil plat, I know its one of the best for fuel dilution which seams like that would help with this issue, plus its not super expensive

I havent read the entire thread but this seemed to stick out to me. When you did your boil test the water content probably evaporated out before it could form any acids. You said there was still black stuff just not sticky. The water boiling out could be the reason. The water for the sticky, the ethanol for the black stuff, maybe you need both for sticky black death. In the pump it would get hot but since there is no place for water vapors to go it combines with the black stuff and gunks up the pump.

I feel very scientific for posting in this thread lolz. This is just a guess.

Makes sense.
Put a Pyrex cup/baking bowl/etc. on top of the hot plate?

Seriously doubt there was any water content; the fuel was sitting in a sealed (air tight) container prior to use; also there was no black stuff (at all) and no sticky until I boiled eth with some oil in it.

My fix so far..

I took my spill valve apart busted out the Dremel some polishing compound polished anything that looked like it moved to a mirror finish. Took a bic pen spring and cut it slightly longer than the stock spring and put it inside the stock spring sort of like the dual spring on a greddy type s BOV. I am russing 100% e85 and 8 OZ of MMO each fill up and have had zero issues for 3 tank fulls so far. Before modding the spring and polishing parts I was getting FP drop to 60 PSI on initial start after a night of sitting.

Hope this helps.

What oil do you use?

Rotella T6... I do need a change in under 1000 miles may try something else since it seems to be causing some issues for others.

Actually I think you should stick with it. If everyone but you is having issues on the T6, then what better way to prove your changes work?

Ill stick it out and wait to see what happens after a few more tanks. I drive 300+ miles a week so I go through tanks quick. Polishing was super easy I should have took some pics. I might pull it apart to see if its getting coated again and post some up tomorrow. If I don't blow the motor tonight on the SPICY tune lol...

You won't blow on pure e, even if your pressure tanks. Just won't happen bud.

Anyone switch to Valvoline VR1 oil?? I'm willing to try it out once I switch to full 85 again in next week or so....or should I still run t6?

it's the saphire blue REAL synthetic oil...

racing oil

I used it one oil change.... the car ran great and the oil was still clearish 3500 miles later when I tried yet another oil.

my car is a name brand oil whore, as of now I've been using and sticking with the Rotella T6. love it

How does the rest of the pump look? I don't get FP loss near as much as other guys but I get a fuck ton of black death in the pump, and my guess is this is a FP fix not black gunk fix.

I just put the VR1 10w-30 Racing Synthetic in mine last oil change. As @SpeedSixxx said it is blue, which tripped me out when I first saw it.

I'm not sure how soon I will be swapping over to E85 though as I am sending in my HPFP internals for warranty work.

I called Valvoline up about that oil and did my research..

to this day it's prob one of the best oils iv'e used...

as stated after 3500 miles the oil was still clean and not once did the motor feel rough.

Mobil one syn after 2200 miles the ride is rough...

I'm super excited about it, my only wish was that I was running E85 currently.

Yeah, I'm gonna change to vr1 this week and see what happens on full 85... Won't be on it till the 21st, since thats when the rest of my mods are going on.


Is 10w30 gonna be good?

I just did internals for a genpu on Saturday and the pump was fucking pristine. 30k some miles, pump gas and Rotella T6.

*Shrug*

^^that's how mine was on 93 too.......and it was even clean with 85, just like thick oil build up on internal shaft or w.e it is tho.

I'm gonna switch to vr1 and see what happens.

What weight are you guys going to try w/ the VR1?

I'm retarded, don't mind me.

I would try 5W-30 or 5W-40 if they have it. If not, I would do a 10W-40, but only for the summer. A 10 weight oil is too thick for our engine tolerances when really cold.


Tapadatass

I cracked up when I read it, figured someone would catch it eventually

I've alsways ran 5w-30 year round here, but might try the 10 for the summer this year since it'll be hot as balls in about 3 weeks.
Thanks

Here is some nice information on determining the proper oil viscosity with respect to ambient temperature:

Engine & Gear Oil - Temperature and Viscosity Limits


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...emperature.jpg

Edit: I should add that this table does not take into account engine bearing tolerances. I would run 1 weight lighter than that table for the MS3/6.

learn something new everyday, thanks for the reference

Synthetic vr1 only comes in 10w-30 and 20w-50. Currently running the 10w-30 in mine.

On another note, I ran about 5gal of e but i have stock internals in so I can warranty my autotechs so I only went WOT a couple times, but when I pulled the spill valve after those 5 gal it was pristine. Hopefully will have one of my sets of upgraded internals back soon

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It's generally the internals that get nasty with black death quickly, and only at > 50% e mixes (with pure being the worst). I'd be interested in seeing how your pump looks when you get your internals back.

So you think 10w30 is gonna be to thick for the ms3?? I wanted to run the vr1 oil and test it with full 85.


Might have to change it up then.....its not that hot yet here for that thicker oil.......hmmm.

Let me clarify, 5 gal of e85 with no 93 mixed in. I just knew the stock cdfp internals wouldn't like it so I didn't fill ip. Also even if there wasn't a ton of black death on spill valve(which usually there was) it was never been pristine clean. It looked like a coors light can it was that clean.

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