No, I'll actually be replacing the stock scraper with the PTFE one from JBR and instead of using the cheesy oring (which has tons of room to float around in there) I will be filling it with RTV; the end result should be a total seal in the retaining nut (which is where the scraper is located; look inside the nut on the threaded side).

About 300 more miles since cleaning the pump....no problems just yet...not even the spill valve...ill put about 700 more miles on pump till I pull and clean again.

Im not ruling out the oil or anything else Im just saying in my case the only thing I did after polishing the internals is change to Pennzoil ultra and replaced the SPV O ring with a VITON rubber one. On 100% e85 I get no problems now. I did my additive test for extra lubrication and saw black sticky for the first time when doing so. After a tank of race fuel and toluene I have put 3 tanks of E85 only through and am still good. Maybe the Racefuel / Toluene clears any remnants of bad gas or additives that could be causing the sticky film. I Pulled SPV earlier and its spotless after 800 Miles on Pure E85.

Well then, I think this doubly reinforces the idea that oil is seeping past the OE seal. Maybe correct me here, but this is how I'm interpreting what you're telling us:

1) Change seal
2) Change Oil

= No Black gunk after you do these

3) Add mineral oil

= Black gunk is seen

We know that gas cleans the system, so that's not a new development. Your findings point back to either the seal or type of oil causing issue. I'm more inclined to think it's the seal.

PS - This is the first you've mentioned changing the seal in this thread. Any more info on this?

At the risk of sounding like a total noob for not reading the thread, since there is the potential for oil to be getting past the seal, is there not also the potential for fuel to get past it as well? Considering the fuel is as a FAR greater pressure, could this be more the cause for our fuel dilution rather than cylinder washing?

Yeah, probably. I've had the black gunk since I first started running E85, but I've never had fuel dilution issues. I get my oil analyzed every other oil change, and it hasn't been significant in the past 80k miles.

The thing is the fuel pressure isn't that great behind the piston; in all likely hood, it's probably at negative pressure at the top of the stroke (hence the not-insignificant presence of oil in the retaining nut when there's a scraper AND seal to prevent it from building up in the first place); I'm thinking there's a reason that the little hole exists in the side of the internals collar aside from lubrication of the internals.

This also kind of explains why my internals were pretty damn clean when I only had the dual seals and the one o-ring in place of the scraper for a little while on my pump; it could be that the little bit of fuel leaking by would keep the oil out of the pump.

See here for reference:
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...ml#post1314921

If memory serves (I've been terrible at updating the thread), the pump looked the cleanest it's ever been with just the oring and seal vs scraper and seal.

Damn it! Spill valve took a shit cruising on the highway going to work...cruising at 60psi isn't fun.


Can I test out the new stuff jbr makes for the pump too?

I'd say yes, but I'm not exactly sure how this will work out and the possibility exists that keeping the oil completely out of the pump is a bad thing. I don't know about you but I don't have to drive my car to work every day; it's also worth noting that the process I'm going to use to mod the pump will require it being completely off the car for more than a day (to cure).

After I've tested the changes I have planned, we can discuss more widespread testing (if this will even work).

@Enki @phate @GLORIFIEDBOZO @silvapain

Okay so I pulled the spill valve, and well I def don't like what I see at all!!!

Is my fuel filter clogged up or what??? It's like I have sand in my fuel.


http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...A4MDMuanBn.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...A4MDIuanBn.jpg


http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...A4MDEuanBn.jpg

Collect a sample!! That's def something new lol.

Is it sticky? How far did you drive with it stuck? Has your intank filter ever been changed? Where did you get your gas?

I'm at work and cleaned the spill valve....I think there is some shit in the pump still.


Do u use a q-tip for the sample??

It's obviously corn meal.
And I'm not even black.

I got stuck driving it for like 10 miles if that.....no, my intake pump filter was never changed with 39,xxx miles on the car, and I have no idea how to install it...I was gonna change to the 265 pump.

And I just switched from throntons gas to Mobils 85 gas, this is the second tank.... Could be garbage gas.

I wanted to do some e-research on VR1 racing oil and found this on a Corvette forum. I make no claims to the veracity of the statements made, just thought I would post it up for consideration...

I picked up a Valvoline product manual over the weekend. It clarified some questions about their Racing oil products. It turns out that VR1 Racing Oil is just ordinary new car street oil that says Racing Oil on the label. I think most of us thought it was extra good stuff because of those words, and because it said it contains ZDDP (Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate), which we commonly just call zinc. That ended up being just marketing hype, since even the newer street oils still contain some zinc, just at much lower levels than they used too. Of course, that reduction was done for emissions reasons to prevent wrecking the cats on street cars, certainly not to help the engines. As we know, zinc is considered one of the main additives that gives extra protection against engine wear. Many consider the fact that zinc has been nearly removed from newer street oils to be the primary cause for the rash of flat tappet motor wiped lobes. It may also be a contributing factor to solid roller lifter failures as well. So, of course, racers and gearheads typically like to stay away from street oil if they don’t run cat equipped cars. The thing is, VR1 is API certified as SM rated (check the bottle and you’ll see), which is the latest street oil rating for current new cars, as well as older ones so they claim. But don’t tell that to the guys with wiped lobes. In order to meet that latest strict API rating, the zinc level is at its lowest level yet……..so much for Valvoline’s feeble claim of “contains ZDDP”. And so much for VR1 being actual “Racing Oil”. I think most of us expect true racing oil to have much larger amounts of zinc than even the older “good” street oil. On top of that, I recently came across a Valvoline link on the web, where they talked about VR1 being a synthetic blend, though they don’t even say that on the bottle. So………. they don’t make it widely known that it is a synthetic blend, yet they do imply it has a lot of zinc, which is doesn’t. I know many people are quite happy using VR1, but the good it is doing for them apparently comes mostly from it being partial synthetic, not from any help from zinc. Jeg’s lists this oil for $5.00 per qt. I was planning to use it in the 540 I’m building, but now I wouldn’t even consider it.

For those of us who actually want truly elevated levels of zinc in our oil, we have to look no further than Valvoline’s two other Race Oils. They have conventional (petroleum) Racing Oil and Synthetic Racing Oil, both of which truly have elevated levels of zinc. Since they do, they say clearly on the bottles, “Not Street Legal”, which is because they will actually ruin the cats on cat equipped cars. And they don’t carry new street oil API ratings. Jeg’s lists the conventional at $7.00 per qt and the synthetic at $9.00 per qt.

Just when we thought it was safe to stop thinking about oil………………

Where is this product manual he read? Most of it has an API rating of SL, there is one version of 20-50 that is rated SN/SM which is not the most recent rating, but is still current. It is a full synthetic, not a blend. No shit it's a street oil or it wouldn't have a API rating. API doesn't rate hardcore racing oils, however last I checked they are still street legal. I am attaching a hilighted version of the product information I think I attached back on like page 3 or something of this thread.

Edit: they don't make the ones highlighted red anymore.

Edit 2: it's on page 4 with some other shit

whoever wrote that shit up on the fagvette forum is a fuck tard shit stick..

so I guess you can also ignore what I wrote about calling the tech hotline on the back of the VR1 bottle and asking many questions about the oil..

"why is it saphire blue?"
"it's saphire blue to indicate it's a TRUE FULL synthetic and yes the saphire blue is just a dye, a dye that indicates TRUE FULL SYN.."

the guy even told me all those other FULL SYNTHETIC oils such as mobil one and whatever PP or other shit youn use is really a SYN BLEND not real True Full Syn..

any company selling TRUE FULL SYNTHETIC dyes the oil saphire blue to indicate ... TRUE FULL SYN..

anyway.

baseball sux dick almost as much as golf... delete your post and change your name please.. thank you

I just wasted my whole time reading that shit....fuck those vette guys....blaming problems on the oil, when they probably fucked there shit up from theirselves messing with shit.




Anyways, I'm pulling my pump today, we'll see what it looks like inside, cause we kno my spill valve looked like complete shit.

Well i pulled the pump after the spill valve took a shit and looked like sand covered my spill valve.


The pump was cleaner than shit!!! WTF was that shit the other day?? I did out 93 back in....might put a lil 85 back in to see if I can get that build up again and send a sample.

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...A4MDcuanBn.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...A4MTIuanBn.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...A4MTAuanBn.jpg

SPILL VALVE CLEAN NOW?!?!?
http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...A4MDYuanBn.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...A4MTEuanBn.jpg


ARE THERE SCAR MARKS ON THIS?? ((WEAR MARKS))
http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...A4MTMuanBn.jpg

That quad ring does look a bit damaged front the pic. Pull it out (carefully) and inspect it.


Tapadatass

I just put the pump back in, once I waste the rest of 85 and go back on 93, ill get better pics and inspect it better.


Has anyone consider kendell gt-1 oil??

Just saw a commercial for Sta-Bil ethanol treatment. You guys with running cars should check it out.
http://www.goldeagle.com/mobile/prod...z_ethanol.aspx

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Hmmm.....what everyone else think??

@Enki @phate Some new stuff for yall to test out :)

Somewhere in my E85 thread, we discussed it and someone tried it. From what I remember, it doesn't work, or we'd still be using it :)

Does anyone sell ethanol compatable fuel lines etc? Im thinking of maybe replacing the line and the itfp soon.....and would like to see if there is any rust/buildup in the tank at all.


Idk what it is.....but the car just doesnt feel the same right now, im gonna do some maintenance work and also do a compression test this week....fp is good tho...idk. @phate, im gonna send you some logs on my 85 map if that is alright lol

Car just feels like it is running really rough.

Again, nothing additive wise will work.
Also again, the lines aren't the problem.

I'm really hoping to prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt when the goodies get in from JBR.

I'm not talking black death......I'm more concern about what is happening to the fuel lines/fuel tank since 85 is corrosive and may be damaging more than we think....and possibly gunk the lines up.

You'd think that oh, Phate, Bozo or I would have seen some issues about that; me being possibly the worst case since my car mostly sits.

Ethanol is NOT much more corrosive than gasoline. It's been sensationalized, and not much of a worry. Methanol, on the other hand, is.

Bullshit. Drink some 200 proof and tell me if your stomach feels like it isn't corroded.

(lol)

You've never had good shine, then!!

Actually, I have. No flavor, or odor, couldn't even feel it go down. When it hit the stomach, however, it was like a nuke went off.

... but how did you car run on it? :Eyecrazy:

The secret is attached.

Ahh I feel much better......only thing is the itfp filter getting clogged....I will drop tank soon to replace it and see what my tank looks like too.

It's pretty easy to drop. A couple straps and a couple lines. You DO need the SST to get the nut off of the itfp basket.

You can only get that at the dealer right?


((Well the new itfp might have to wait......fucking left front axle boot is leaking grease everywhere....left front bearing has play and my right front coil is binding etc, which needs new top mount bearings or w.e they are called))

Where do you get SST? And how much does it cost?

SST is dealer only, or you can try to find one on the forums to borrow.

I think you're talking about the torrington bearing?? The axial bearing with all the ball bearings in it in the top hat?

So do you buy this thing from the dealer or do you rent it from the dealer? We tried to drop a speed6 tank without the tool and it was a no go.

No, dealers suck, so you would have to buy it from them.

In a speed6, you don't have to drop the tank. The entire fuel pump basket comes up through the access hole under the back seat. In a speed3, you have to drop the tank, because the access hole isn't big enough.

The SST is to get the nut off of the fuel pump basket. You can drop the tank without any special tools.

Yeah the top hat bearing or w.e on the coilover.....shit is annoying.....it will all be under warranty from bc tho...so I'm good there....but need a damn driver axle and wheel bearing.

I'll pick that tool up from the dealer soon too.

Don't think rust is an issue in a plastic tank :neener:

This reminds me......


I am going to make an SST here soon, I have just been lazy. I will probably make a couple of them actually depend on how long it takes, and how much it costs.

4 L's or 2 U's and a center attachment piece....easy as hell.

Not mine. Lol.

Yeah I got pics the last time I borrowed it from dj.

You jackass haha.....well, maybe tearing the plastic tank apart! ((Falling apart inside))

But either way, I'm gonna check what it looks like after I drop the tank....Ohhh yeah, make me that tool!

When I say tried to drop it, I meant tried to get retainer nut plastic piece of shit off with a hammer and a screwdriver lol...The dropping was going to come after...good to know you don't have to drop the speed 6 tank though :)

I'll be down for one if you'll make it. Just tell me the cost of your troubles!!!

So any new updates by anyone???


I have been pulling my spill valve like every couple of days/every weekend.....and have not got that sand looking build up at all so far.


I'm gonna pull the pump tomorrow and take it apart and see what I find.....since I have to replace the axle boot and axle seal too....car is ripped apart.

Um, well, you see.... :speechless:


...Maybe?

Spill the beans Enki...

Well maybe somebody forgot to post on this thread of their new findings lol

Or maybe there aren't any findings to report but there is progress?

I'm trying to get some progress lol.....Car is down for a lil....cut axle boot....but pulling pump tonight to see any wear marks.

I am sure @Enki will not withhold any info longer then nessecary, and personally I would rather wait until there is something substanial to report.

Totally all about not getting hopes up right now; better to be patient and confident in any results positive or otherwise than to come out guns blazing only to find out you've murdered everyone in a day care center.

Well since I got a beater, and I run full 85, letting the car sit for a few days every week, anyone think it is bad???????

You're fine. Fuel systems are supposed to be air tight, and are usually under a little vacuum. I run 50/50 and pretty much only drive it a couple days out of the week as it is; last week I drove Sunday afternoon/evening, then it sat until Thursday afternoon.

No issues so far.

It's about time for an update.

I've had the JBR cut PTFE scrapers for some time now (they are pretty much perfect; thanks @jbarone), but have had issues with my testing.

With the new set of o-rings I've bought, I couldn't convince the scraper to seat in the stock location. Rather than risk fucking up trimming the o-ring, I put the totally stock retaining nut back in and placed one scraper between the retaining nut and the internals collar, and lightly tightened the assembly.

That is when I started having fuel issues.

My idle psi is set to 750; I was only getting 400-450, and wouldn't make over 800 at higher rpms. Okay, too much drag I thought. I haven't been able to pull the pump until today to remove it due to a foot injury, but now that I have, I'm pretty pissed.

You see, back on the stock retaining nut with no scraper, my pressure started out slightly above commanded (which is fine and normal). As it sits in the driveway, it only makes 200 ish PSI (again, 750 commanded). As the engine warmed up, the max pressure went down.

If any of you have followed my e85 thread, this will sound familiar; it's the same exact symptoms I had when my stock PRV shit the bed. Only difference now is that I'm running the PTP 2150 valve.

As far as the pump goes, when I disassembled it just a few minutes ago, the whole assembly seemed to move just fine; the scraper actually expanded outwards more than it did inwards, so was basically doing nothing but preventing the retaining nut from seating all the way. With the car running, I can feel the internals clicking along happily inside the pump like normal; manually actuating them without the spring showed very little resistance aside from the initial o-ring rollover in the nut.

So basically, I'm fucked until I can get another PRV (preferably stock, as it's more likely to last a year's worth of driving rather than two weeks).

Because it will be a while until I can get this fixed, is there anyone that is willing to take over the scraper research? I will mail the couple dozen scrapers that are left at my cost to someone that will keep on top of this in my place.

You know I'm down.

Sorry to hear about the latest, though. :/

Always the man of the hour, Phate. Thanks again to you for everything you've done for the community.

PM me your infos, and I'll get it shipped out today or tomorrow. Pretty sure you know where they go, but if not, I can explain it.

@Enki....I have a stock hprv with ~37,xxx miles on it ((I'm running the 2150 now)).



I would do some testing, but I'm on vacation for next 2 weeks starting tomorrow.

been wondering WTF that sound was for all five years of owning this car. Now i know! thanks!

Just talked to John; he's gonna warranty my valve if it's bad. Only thing is I have to send my current one in, and since my stock one has been in my glove box for a month, no bueno.

i'm pooping green

Well i have finally pulled my pump after who knows how long, and idk if im just lucky, but this vr1 oil i think is working very well so far!! I clean my spill valve every week just so its a piece of mind that i wont lose fuel pressure while driving anywhere...But everytime i have removed the spill valve, it was completely spotless and clean.....Lmk what u all think.

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...A4NTMuanBn.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...A4NDkuanBn.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...A4NTAuanBn.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...A4NTEuanBn.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...A4NTQuanBn.jpg

looks good!

Yup!! All looks very good since the oil switch! I also did recently run a can of seafoam ((On a full tank of 93 tho)).....I do want to drop the itfp and see what the filter looks like, but not ready to tackle that project just yet, since me have to save for a build ;-)


Im back on 93 for the time being, pretty sure my 02 sensor is going bad.....just cruising on highway, my afr dips down to 13.1....I have good vacumm, shouldnt be a leak or anything.

Any new info? I am trying to save up some cash for FP internals and to have phate get me a e85 tune started. My car has like 108k on it so it will be interesting to see how a higher milage speed 3 does with the black goo.. I am gonna run 2 or 3 cans of seafoam through the tank before I make the switch. After reading this thread as well as phate's 67pg long e85 thread from a year or so ago I am excited to jump in the pool and start helping with the movment to figure iut the black goo. I will probably change my oil from penz platinum to valvoline Vr-1 before I make the switch to e85, that is unless you all want me to stick with penz??

Nice Find Kind Sir

Maybe I'll try some dexos oil next oil change...I recall seeing that symbol/name on PP a while back.

PP 5w-30 is on the list.
Strange that their Ultra isn't...

Has anyone tried QSUD? I'm running a 50/50 mix for over a year and never cleaned my spill valve on QSUD. Same base oil as PP but different add pack and much cheaper. I'm gonna run a UOA on my next oil change and see how its holding up. Might cleaned or at least take out my spill valve this weekend

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I never cleaned my spill valve on T6 using 50/50.

how can you guys say these picts look good? you shouldn't have any of that grimey built up shit on the sleeve or the inside of the piston part. what % e85 are you running?

Good is a relative term in this case lol.

Yeah, it was very good....But I also didnt do an oil change for awhile, so oil was probably breaking down a bit....When oil was new, I had no problems and no build up.


I was running 100% E85

Relevant info:

CorkSport Mazda Performance ? Blog » Fuel Pump Comparison Part 1

Corksport's testing shows black death is oil (duh, but nice to have another confirmation)
@aaron_-01; said he was running Royal Purple oil for quite a long time with no issues on full E. Since the last test didn't go so well for me, and considering the UOA results I vaguely recall seeing on RP oil, I'm thinking I'll sit out that test.

Go for Pennzoil Ultra.

Or kendells racing oil. Says its 85 compatible

I ran 100% on royal purple for over 3k miles. I tore my pump apart before stepping down to 5050 due to the need/want for more inj duty cycle headroom since I was pushing 25 psi on stock turbo, the pump had a clear sticky film all over it. Took a little bit of scrubbing to get it off.

Kendall oils would be interesting. They sell them direct off their website with free shipping

https://www.hicorpinc.com/phillips66...spx?id=1057225

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What about Penzoil Platinum 5w40 EuroSpec...that looks real interesting.

Phillips66

Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 Full Synthetic Motor Oil - 6 quarts

also
Pennzoil Ultra 0W-40

p.s.
Link shit you talk about people. :P

Reading a little more and apparently VW has their own requirement for TDI engines. Now I know diesel and e85 is vastly different but this oil is suppose to prevent intake valve deposits as well as most of them being ester based oils.

http://www.goapr.com/products/motul_oil.html

http://microsites.audiusa.com/ngw/09..._1997-2012.pdf


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Is there no way to stop black death by adding something to the fuel or oil that will keep it from being created or keep it from building up?

On less than 1/4 tank, I tried a gallon of naphtha (which is what I use to clean my pump with, works wonders) and a full bottle of MMO.

Neither did anything to resolve the issue.

You have to get the right oil and it won't happen.

Do we know what the right oil is? And will it work for 100% e85?

Uh, have you read this thread?

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...fp-oil-122082/

nope but I will now! thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

You should just read the entire E85 section of the site...It's not like it will take too terribly long.

Anyone ever tried this? I wonder if using this will keep black death at bay.

Lucas oil products aren't normally that great of quality and typically expensive. How much is the bottle? If it works maybe its worth it but I'd assume that bottle is probably 6-8 dollars.

Is anyone really running full e85 anymore? Since you'll run out of fuel on e85 with the ko4 is it even worth it? Does it provide any real power over 50/50 mix?

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There is no additive that has been tested to work, in any amount. It's the oil itself that shits up the pump.

I wonder when people will actually understand that.

Truth it is the oil. You can add 50% gasoline to clean out the pump :D. Maybe another very strong solvent (stronger than gas, or whatever is in gas that dissolves the oil that is not in ethanol) would clean the pump instead. Yes, a oil that can be dissolved better with only e85 is a solution to.

Basically three solutions as I see it.

1. Prevent oil from getting there (so far not able to do this)
2. Use a substance (like gasoline) that moves through the fuel pump and remove the oil
3. Find a suitable oil that can be dissolved with straight ethanol

Its understandable that it is obviously the oil itself that is the problem but if there's a way to keep what's already proven to happen (black death) from actually staying there then the problem is solved a different way... as rtabagaboy; said, you can either find an oil that doesn't screw up or you can find a fuel additive that will keep it from accumulating. So there's not just one way to fix this problem (Although it would be nice to have a solution that lasts 3500 miles instead of 300 miles).

Has anyone actually tried the lucas oil stuff? Don't put it down before its been tested... who knows? It could be what we are looking for but no one gave it enough credit to even try. Not that I'm a fan of lucas oil or anything... I don't have any experience with it.

With less than a quarter tank of E85, I added not only a full bottle of MMO, but a GALLON of naphtha (which is what I use to clean the black/sticky deaths out of my pump) to my tank to try and prevent this from happening back when I was on full E. Guess what? I didn't even make it out of the driveway.

But again, this was covered in one of these threads, maybe even this one. Oil is extremely likely to be the *only* answer aside from simply running less E content.

I think I asked, but why can't we have the in-tank pump cycle for 30-60 seconds after shut-down to flush/cool the hpfp again?